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American Politics Thread

Gather round, people, I'll tell you a story
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The verdict was barely being read when cops in Columbus, Ohio shot and killed a fifteen year old Black girl who had called them for help. This comes days after police in Columbus took a 1 am helicopter joyride spelling out "CPD" over a Black neighborhood. This whole thing is just playing whack-a-mole and nothing is going to get better until the whole system of policing as it exists is torn down. The rot's at the heart of the system and it needs to be removed.
 
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This whole thing is just playing whack-a-mole and nothing is going to get better until the whole system of policing as it exists is torn down. The rot's at the heart of the system and it needs to be removed.
It's not whack-a-mole. We need guilty verdicts if we want to push for progress on this front. Already, Chauvin's sentencing gave the DoJ the opening to reach deeper at the very rot you mention. Had Chauvin walked free instead, this investigation into the police would be unable to ever start.

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Justice Department is opening a sweeping investigation into policing practices in Minneapolis after a former officer was convicted in the killing of George Floyd there, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced Wednesday.

The decision comes a day after former officer Derek Chauvin was found guilty of murder and manslaughter in Floyd’s death last May, setting off a wave of relief across the country.

“Yesterday’s verdict in the state criminal trial does not address potentially systemic policing issues in Minneapolis,” Garland said.

The new investigation is known as a “pattern or practice” — examining whether there is a pattern or practice of unconstitutional or unlawful policing — and will be a more sweeping probe of the entire police department and may result in major changes to policing there.

It will examine the use of force by police officers, including force used during protests, and whether the department engages in discriminatory practices. It will also look into the department’s handling of misconduct allegations and its treatment of people with behavioral health issues and will assess the department’s current systems of accountability, Garland said.
 
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The verdict was barely being read when cops in Columbus, Ohio shot and killed a fifteen year old Black girl who had called them for help. This comes days after police in Columbus took a 1 am helicopter joyride spelling out "CPD" over a Black neighborhood. This whole thing is just playing whack-a-mole and nothing is going to get better until the whole system of policing as it exists is torn down. The rot's at the heart of the system and it needs to be removed.
Went ahead and looked up the details of that case. The fifteen year old was in the middle of trying to stab another girl with a knife at the moment when the cop shot her. Not that you'll ever hear any of that in news articles.

View: https://twitter.com/lookner/status/1384706823421374465
 
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Went ahead and looked up the details of that case. The fifteen year old was in the middle of trying to stab another girl with a knife at the moment when the cop shot her. Not that you'll ever hear any of that in news articles.
Seems to me like you might want to look at a bit more of the details. You can watch the body cam footage from start to end at the 6:40 mark.


  • It is not even 15 seconds between the officer getting out of his car and firing his gun.
  • The only kind of verbal instruction he gives is "Hey! Get down, get down!", and he starts saying this to another group of people fighting.
  • He fires his gun four times in rapid succession. Why on earth would he need to fire three more times?
  • This is how far away the officer is when he shoots her:

1619048443378.png
I think most adults are easily capable of running over and grabbing her by the arm at that distance.

While the investigation is still underway, reports seem to indicate that Bryant was the one who called the police, saying that the other girls had been attacking her- which would mean this was an act of self-defense, not aggression.

Even if she had been the aggressor, though, violent actions should not be a death warrant. Fights break out between teens sometimes, and it doesn't mean it's right or justified, but it's the kind of problem that needs professional help to help, not a fatal gunshot wound.

And we've seen people who did much worse get taken alive- Charleston shooter Dylan Roof (21 at the time of arrest), Atlanta shooter Aaron Long (21 at the time of arrest), Grantsville shooter Jeffrey Haynie (16 at the time of his arrest)-
 
atomic step
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It's not whack-a-mole. We need guilty verdicts if we want to push for progress on this front. Already, Chauvin's sentencing gave the DoJ the opening to reach deeper at the very rot you mention. Had Chauvin walked free instead, this investigation into the police would be unable to ever start.

https://apnews.com/article/george-floyd-verdict-police-reform-DOJ-e24dd1a390a781af3495fa1e0271f492
quote excerpt said:
“Yesterday’s verdict in the state criminal trial does not address potentially systemic policing issues in Minneapolis,” Garland said.

The new investigation is known as a “pattern or practice” — examining whether there is a pattern or practice of unconstitutional or unlawful policing — and will be a more sweeping probe of the entire police department and may result in major changes to policing there.

It will examine the use of force by police officers, including force used during protests, and whether the department engages in discriminatory practices. It will also look into the department’s handling of misconduct allegations and its treatment of people with behavioral health issues and will assess the department’s current systems of accountability, Garland said.
Thank you for sharing that.
 
Shaking my head
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Went ahead and looked up the details of that case. The fifteen year old was in the middle of trying to stab another girl with a knife at the moment when the cop shot her. Not that you'll ever hear any of that in news articles.
What made you think that? The media is clearly talking about it.


The investigation is still ongoing. So I'll wait until we have more facts. I don't think this is as clear as that Steve Lookner guy you linked is trying to present it. Who even is that?
 
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Seems to me like you might want to look at a bit more of the details. You can watch the body cam footage from start to end at the 6:40 mark.
  • It is not even 15 seconds between the officer getting out of his car and firing his gun.
  • The only kind of verbal instruction he gives is "Hey! Get down, get down!", and he starts saying this to another group of people fighting.
  • He fires his gun four times in rapid succession. Why on earth would he need to fire three more times?
  • This is how far away the officer is when he shoots her:
I'm sorry, but I don't think any of this is credible, especially the last point. Physically interjecting from several feet and disarming an attacker when the knife is inches away from the victim is, to be frank, the stuff of Hollywood. The officer arrived, saw one person going to stab another in a matter of seconds, and made a judgement that almost certainly saved someone from potentially-fatal wounds. This was an actual life-or-death situation, not an instance of police abusing a restrained person or someone attempting to cooperate.
 
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I'm sorry, but I don't think any of this is credible, especially the last point. Physically interjecting from several feet and disarming an attacker when the knife is inches away from the victim is, to be frank, the stuff of Hollywood. The officer arrived, saw one person going to stab another in a matter of seconds, and made a judgement that almost certainly saved someone from potentially-fatal wounds. This was an actual life-or-death situation, not an instance of police abusing a restrained person or someone attempting to cooperate.
I believe it's up to the investigators to determine whether the cops did the right thing or there was anything else they could have done. Can we please wait until all facts are revealed and the investigation is finished? I'm really disappointed seeing all these armchair theories. I don't want to see people here accusing each other of "Hollywood fiction".

City leaders are asking the community not to rush to judgment and wait for the result of an independent investigation that's being conducted by the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation.

"We have to ask ourselves, 'What information did the officer have? What did he see? How much time did he have to assess the situation, and what would have happened if he had taken no action at all?'" Pettus said. "So, I plead with the community, let us not rush to judgment. As I said last night, fast facts should not come at the cost of complete and accurate facts."
 
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I don't feel I need an authority figure to tell me that drawing a connection with regards to police conduct between this and the Chauvin case is, charitably, a reach. We can all draw an easy distinction between a restrained, unarmed man and an armed assailant attacking someone other than the officer in question.
 
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Shaking my head
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I don't feel I need an authority figure to tell me that drawing a connection with regards to police conduct between this and the Chauvin case is, charitably, a reach.
Not the authorities, nor I, are telling you that your opinion is wrong. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. All I'm asking you is to not act like you already know everything there is to know about this incident and insult and put down others by accusing them of imagining "Hollywood stuff". Tragedies like this are already immensely emotional, there's no need to throw gasoline into the fire.

The city leaders are 100% correct in their advice to wait for the investigation to conclude before being judgemental. We still don't know A LOT about what caused this whole mess.
 
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No, I still refute that. It is very obvious that the knife was going into the third person's flesh far quicker than the attacker could have been restrained or disarmed.

You can credibly make a case that the risk of stab wounds in such incidents does not outweigh the risks of lethally arming law enforcement - after all, many stab wounds are non-lethal. But I simply can't accept that the whole human body moves crosses feet faster than hands can travel inches.

Tragedies like this are already immensely emotional, there's no need to throw gasoline into the fire.
Drawing a connection between this incident and the Chauvin case is exactly an example of this behaviour, I'd argue.
 
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You're still completely missing my point. I was never defending what he or anyone else said, nor was I telling you that you're wrong. All I said was you should avoid using inflammatory and potentially insulting language when arguing about emotional issues. Again, the city leaders were begging all sides to step back while the investigation is ongoing. Nor you, nor me, nor anyone else has all the information to play armchair judge or jury.

I'm not gonna repeat myself so I'll just move on before this argument gets even worse.

View: https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1385263393074991104
 
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I'm sorry, but I don't think any of this is credible, especially the last point.
I'll set aside the time issues because that's more of a subjective debate right now, but do you really not think it's credible to expect an offer to give a direct verbal warning before firing? Do you really think four shots was necessary to get her to stop, and that one gunshot wound wouldn't be enough?

And even taking this idea that she needed to be shot in order to get her to stop- why not aim for a limb instead of the torso or head, to ensure the wounds wouldn't be fatal?
Physically interjecting from several feet and disarming an attacker when the knife is inches away from the victim is, to be frank, the stuff of Hollywood.
I didn't say "disarm", I said "grab her by the arm". I don't expect him to be able to immediately get the knife away from her, but I think most adults are strong enough to be able to pull a teenage girl away from someone.
But I simply can't accept that the whole human body moves crosses feet faster than hands can travel inches.
The alternative action here was aiming and firing a gun accurately on two people fighting with each other and wanting to hit a specific person- I don't see how that can immediately be assumed to be the faster action here.
I don't feel I need an authority figure to tell me that drawing a connection with regards to police conduct between this and the Chauvin case is, charitably, a reach.
Drawing a connection between this incident and the Chauvin case is exactly an example of this behaviour, I'd argue.
Nobody is saying this is as bad as the Chauvin case. What people are saying is that this is another example of police responding to black civilians with unnecessarily excessive force. It doesn't have to be Chauvin levels of evil, or even intentionally malicious. You'll notice I never said anything about the cop's personal character other than that I believe he acted recklessly.
 
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Not the authorities, nor I, are telling you that your opinion is wrong. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. All I'm asking you is to not act like you already know everything there is to know about this incident and insult and put down others by accusing them of imagining "Hollywood stuff". Tragedies like this are already immensely emotional, there's no need to throw gasoline into the fire.

The city leaders are 100% correct in their advice to wait for the investigation to conclude before being judgemental. We still don't know A LOT about what caused this whole mess.
Oh I totally agree on this. We really should wait until we get further info to pass judgement.

The problem is that this isn't how the media and activists operate. Shortly after all this went down the press immediately started putting up reports with headlines like "WHITE COP SHOOTS BLACK TEEN" and the activists were already demanding the officer's blood without any further information.

While he deleted it already, LeBron James even posted a tweet of the officer along with the words "You're next." referring to what happened with Chauvin's guilty verdict. Again, without even having all the information. And no, it doesn't matter if he took it down or not, people have already seen it and decided what the 'truth' is based on it.

This is why I mentioned "Not that you'll ever hear any of that in news articles.", those ones you posted were well after the fact, the media just vomited up whatever they could as soon as possible to get clicks and views, regardless of the risks associated with doing something like that. Even if they clarify the details later, it's too little too late.

On the show Pinky and The Brain, Brain once said, and I quote, "In politics, lies are just facts that haven't been repeated enough yet." That's supposed to be satire, but ironically enough it feels like it's become more true as time goes on.
 
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On the show Pinky and The Brain, Brain once said, and I quote, "In politics, lies are just facts that haven't been repeated enough yet." That's supposed to be satire, but ironically enough it feels like it's become more true as time goes on.
And what about the lie that BLM activists are calling for blood at a moment's notice?
The problem is that this isn't how the media and activists operate. Shortly after all this went down the press immediately started putting up reports with headlines like "WHITE COP SHOOTS BLACK TEEN" and the activists were already demanding the officer's blood without any further information.
Framing your political opponents as bloodthirsty mobs who don't bother with facts is its own form of ignoring the facts- rather than respond to actual people, you just talk about this caricature.
those ones you posted were well after the fact,
A day after the department holds a press conference and releases body cam footage is not what I'd consider "well after" something happene.
 
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Now with Mega Evolution
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TW // violence, racial violence, drug use

(As an aside, I would really encourage us to use trigger warnings for those who are sensitive to these topics)

I can’t help but compare this incident with the multitude of white shooters and attackers who were arrested alive. A police officer should be able to handle situations like these without killing someone. To be sure, this is a high pressure situation with high stakes. But shooting to kill should not be the first instinct. Especially when the weapon in question is a knife. We’ve seen grown white men with AR-15s taken into custody. This girl was 16.

I’m sure there are plenty of details left to be learned BUT can you really blame people for believing this is yet another racially biased police incident? People said word for word this EXACT thing with George Floyd. That we needed more details. That he had a history with drug abuse. That he was on fentanyl. Even when we had video right there in our faces. There were reports that his autopsy revealed he OD’d on fentanyl. They had to perform a second autopsy to confirm that it was a lack of oxygen that killed him. And only then after all of this and nearly a year of court battles, were we able to get this one victory out of a sea of these kinds of incidents. People are tired.

Yes, the facts and details are always important. But none of them bring this girl back to life. They can’t be used to determine the severity of her consequence at a trial. She’s already been sentenced.
 
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I refuse to believe that's real. Like, seriously, WTF?
 
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