American Politics Thread

[Volphied]

"Pursue alliances" is not the same thing as "have their applications to join those alliances be accepted."

Another thing, Russia also has no right to tell NATO which countries they're allowed to accept, and which one's they aren't. Again, the NATO command was loud and clear that they will not be bullied to change their policy. Because if they allow to be ordered around by Russia, then NATO has lost its purpose as a defensive alliance.

Anyway, have fun arguing with the made-up evil tankie version of me that exists in your head, it's clear you do not intend to engage in good faith.

Not once did I call you a tankie. You completely imagined that. So don't throw around accusations of bad faith.

The top of the thread, which ironically happens to be your comment too, has the following written:

Address the user's points, not the user themselves and do not assume bad faith.

Please, follow it.

 

[zoroarctic]

People die in war, and it's awful, which is why we should oppose the United States' efforts to whip its citizens up into wanting war with Russia

No one in our government who matters is doing that.

 

[Volphied]

No one in our government who matters is doing that.

This crisis started with Russia mobilizing hundreds of thousands of troops and moving them to the border of Ukraine and into Belarus and occupied Crimea, while sending unacceptable demands to NATO.

But somehow, it's the West who's the real warmonger. I do not understand this at all.

NATO-Russia: setting the record straight

www.nato.int

Myth 2: NATO is aggressive and a threat to Russia

Fact: NATO is a defensive alliance, whose purpose is to protect our members. NATO’s official policy is that "the Alliance does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia." NATO didn’t invade Georgia; NATO didn’t invade Ukraine. Russia did.

NATO has reached out to Russia consistently and publicly over the past 30 years. We worked together on issues ranging from counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism to submarine rescue and civil emergency planning – even during periods of NATO enlargement. However, in 2014, in response to Russia's aggressive actions against Ukraine, NATO suspended practical cooperation with Russia. We do not seek confrontation, but we can’t ignore Russia breaking international rules, undermining our stability and security.

In response to Russia's use of military force against Ukraine, NATO deployed four multinational battlegroups to the Baltic States and Poland in 2016. These units are not permanently based in the region, are in line with Allies’ international commitments, and amount to around 5,000 troops. They do not pose a threat to Russia’s 1,000,000 strong army. Before Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, there were no Allied troops in the eastern part of the Alliance.

NATO remains open to meaningful dialogue with Russia. That is why NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has invited all members of the NATO-Russia Council to a series of meetings to discuss European security, including the situation in and around Ukraine, NATO-Russia relations, and arms control and non-proliferation.

Myth 3: Ukraine cannot join NATO

Fact: NATO Allies welcome Ukraine’s aspirations to join NATO and they stand by the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance.

Decisions regarding NATO membership are up to each individual applicant and the 30 NATO Allies. No one else. Russia has no right to intervene and cannot veto this process.

Like every country, Ukraine has the sovereign right to choose its own security arrangements. This is a fundamental principle of European security, one that Russia has also signed up to, including through the Helsinki Final Act (1975), the Charter of Paris (1990), the NATO-Russia Founding Act (1997) and the Charter for European Security (1999).

Myth 4: NATO is encircling and trying to contain Russia

Fact: NATO is a defensive alliance, whose purpose is to protect our member states. Our exercises and military deployments are not directed against Russia – or any other country.

This myth also ignores geography. Only 6% of Russia’s land borders touch NATO countries. Russia has land borders with 14 countries. Only five of them are NATO members.

Outside NATO territory, the Alliance only has a military presence in Kosovo and Iraq. The KFOR peacekeeping mission is carried out with a United Nations Security Council mandate.

NATO's non-combat mission in Iraq contributes to the fight against terrorism and is carried out at the request of the Iraqi government, with full respect for Iraq's sovereignty. In contrast, Russia has military bases and soldiers in three countries – Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine – without the consent of their governments. Russia also has amassed over 100,000 troops on Ukraine’s border and is threatening to invade Ukraine.

 

[ShieldFan]

This crisis started with Russia mobilizing hundreds of thousands of troops and moving them to the border of Ukraine and into Belarus and occupied Crimea, while sending unacceptable demands to NATO.

But somehow, it's the West who's the real warmonger. I do not understand this at all.

NATO-Russia: setting the record straight

www.nato.int

Ask your Darth Putin's twitter account for answers. That twitter account is so garbage that I can't believe you really trust that to back up your claims.

• "Former colonies"? What is this garbage account even talking about? Ukraine was one of many republics of the Soviet Union. Before that, it was one of the territories that belonged to the Russian Empire. The same rule applies to baltic nations, Belarus. "Former colonies" is such a simplistic and dumb way to describe that matter;
• "Buffer states" (2th tweet). The clown behind this garbage didn't even bother to make a basic search on google. There's no such a thing like buffer states in Eastern Europe. Poland, Baltic Countries, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia (that's a caucasian country, but the rule applies), etc, they all chose to be independent after the soviet colapse. Russia didn't try to inverne there. Of course Putin fought the chechens and some muslim separatists in the 2000's, but these wars were about Russia's national integrity;
• Former soviet satelite republics made up the called "soviet backyard". The american governement did the same thing with Latin American during the Cold War. Again, if the mexican president lets chinese and russian troops to march there and build military bases, what do you think Biden would do? But hey, it's up to mexicans to decide. Let's just watch russians and chinese soliders there building military bases. We have no rights to intervene to protect our national security and territory.

 

[WyndonCalling]

"Buffer states" (2th tweet). The clown behind this garbage didn't even bother to make a basic search on google. There's no such a thing like buffer states in Eastern Europe. Poland, Baltic Countries, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, etc, they all chose to be independent after the soviet colapse. Russia didn't try to inverne there. Of course Putin fought the chechens and some mulim separatists in the 2000's, but these wars were about Russia's national integrity

This is out of date by eight years, I'm afraid to say - see the current occupation of Crimea.

 

[Volphied]

Ask your Darth Putin's twitter account for answers. That twitter account is so garbage that I can't believe you really trust that to back up your claims.

It's a satire account meant to parody Putin's imperialism.

• "Former colonies"? What is this garbage account even talking about? Ukraine was one of many republics of the Soviet Union. Before that, it was one of the territories that belonged to the Russian Empire. The same rule applies to baltic nations, Belarus. "Former colonies" is such a simplistic and dumb way to describe that matter;

Ukraine was treated worse than a colony during Soviet times. The Holodomor is just one example of Stalin's policy to weaken the Ukrainian nation through engineered genocide. No surprise that many Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia's empire ever again.

• "Buffer states" (2th tweet). The clown behind this garbage didn't even bother to make a basic search on google. There's no such a thing like buffer states in Eastern Europe. Poland, Baltic Countries, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia (that's a caucasian country, but the rule applies), etc, they all chose to be independent after the soviet colapse. Russia didn't try to inverne there. Of course Putin fought the chechens and some muslim separatists in the 2000's, but these wars were about Russia's national integrity;

This point was already debunked by WyndonCalling. So I'll skip it.

• Former soviet satelite republics made up the called "soviet backyard". The american governement did the same thing with Latin American during the Cold War. Again, if the mexican president lets chinese and russian troops to march there and build military bases, what do you think Biden would do? But hey, it's up to mexicans to decide. Let's just watch russians and chinese soliders there building military bases. We have no rights to intervene to protect our national security and territory.

I find it strange that you keep restating this bizarre hypothetical scenario, despite how it keeps being lampooned:

Again, I find it really curious that you never ask yourself why Mexico is in no hurry to ally with China or Russia. Maybe it's because that the USA isn't constantly threatening their country with invasion and occupation? Or maybe because the USA doesn't consider Mexico to be some kind of runaway country that should be re-annexed?

It's Russia's fault that Ukrainians are rightfully terrified of them, and seeking shelter in NATO.

 

[Dorothy]

McConnell Denounces R.N.C. Censure of Jan. 6 Panel Members (Published 2022)

Senator Mitch McConnell joined a chorus of Republicans distancing themselves from the committee’s action, describing the Capitol riot as “a violent insurrection.”

www.nytimes.com

McConnell is getting praise for this in some quarters, but this strikes me as the actions of a man who will be 86 when his term is up and unlikely to seek another, and therefore can basically say whatever he wants without electoral penalty.

 

[Volphied]

Joint Russia-Belarus military drills are also about to start.

The next 10 days will be critical. If the Russian armed forces refuse to leave Belarus and the Black Sea after this date, then Ukraine will be effectively surrounded.

I just hope that the US and EU will continue to stand by Ukraine, and refuse to sign a second Munich, as Putin wishes.

 

[zoroarctic]

McConnell Denounces R.N.C. Censure of Jan. 6 Panel Members (Published 2022)

Senator Mitch McConnell joined a chorus of Republicans distancing themselves from the committee’s action, describing the Capitol riot as “a violent insurrection.”

www.nytimes.com

McConnell is getting praise for this in some quarters, but this strikes me as the actions of a man who will be 86 when his term is up and unlikely to seek another, and therefore can basically say whatever he wants without electoral penalty.

His statement rings especially hollow given that he voted against convicting Trump and opposes creating a bipartisan commission to investigate the insurrection.

I just hope that the US and EU will continue to stand by Ukraine, and refuse to sign a second Munich, as Putin wishes.

US seems committed to providing material and financial support to Ukraine, plus harsh sanctions on Russia. I’m honestly perplexed at Western Europe’s apparent lack of urgency.

 

[Volphied]

US seems committed to providing material and financial support to Ukraine, plus harsh sanctions on Russia. I’m honestly perplexed at Western Europe’s apparent lack of urgency.

Not sure I understand what you mean by this. The EU has already offered Ukraine a massive financial support.

EU offers Ukraine 1.2 billion euro aid package

The European Union aims to help Ukraine with a 1.2 billion euro financial aid package to mitigate the effects of the conflict with Russia, which has amassed troops and heavy weapons on Ukraine's border, EU Commission Chief Ursula von der Leyen said.

www.reuters.com

And have called for significant sanctions on Russia.

Von der Leyen warns Russia of gas pipeline sanctions over Ukraine

European Commission president says Nord Stream 2 ‘cannot be excluded’ from possible measures

www.theguardian.com

The French President has also been visiting both Russia and Ukraine just now.

 

[zoroarctic]

Not sure I understand what you mean by this. The EU has already offered Ukraine a massive financial support.

EU offers Ukraine 1.2 billion euro aid package

The European Union aims to help Ukraine with a 1.2 billion euro financial aid package to mitigate the effects of the conflict with Russia, which has amassed troops and heavy weapons on Ukraine's border, EU Commission Chief Ursula von der Leyen said.

www.reuters.com

And have called for significant sanctions on Russia.

Von der Leyen warns Russia of gas pipeline sanctions over Ukraine

European Commission president says Nord Stream 2 ‘cannot be excluded’ from possible measures

www.theguardian.com

The French President has also been visiting both Russia and Ukraine just now.

Guess I didn’t get the memo. That’s good to see.

 

[Dorothy]

His statement rings especially hollow given that he voted against convicting Trump and opposes creating a bipartisan commission to investigate the insurrection.

I've seen speculation that he's seen bad internal polling for the GOP in the midterms as a result of obstinance on 1/6, but McCarthy surely would have seen the same internals and he's full steam ahead.

 

[zoroarctic]

I've seen speculation that he's seen bad internal polling for the GOP in the midterms as a result of obstinance on 1/6, but McCarthy surely would have seen the same internals and he's full steam ahead.

I was going to say McCarthy’s a moron with terrible instincts, but McConnell’s proven he’s not exactly a super genius either.

 

[Volphied]

You're too naive. Ukraine has been part of russian sphere of influence since the end of the Soviet Union. If Ukraine joins NATO, then the Russian government will have to deal with american and european troops on its borders. Things are not that simple. How would you react if the mexican government let the chinese/russian build a military base there and send troops to the US border?

What if the mexican president lets Putin and/or Xi Jinping build a military base nearing Texas, California, New Mexico? Do you really think that Biden would just sit and watch thousands of chinese and russians troops there? Oh, Biden has not say in this matter, since it's up to mexicans to decide. We like it or not, Biden would do whatever it takes to stop something like that - and I'd completely agree with him.

My apologies that I'm again returning to these old comments, but progressives on twitter have been debating this analogy recently, so I figured I'd quote one of them explaining in detail why this analogy of yours doesn't work at all.

 

[Dorothy]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Finally Endorses Ban on Stock Trading by Members of Congress

House Democratic leaders faced an internal push from Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to force a floor vote.

theintercept.com

Banning Congressfolks from trading stock is gaining momentum. It'll probably end up with an exemption for incumbents at the time of adoption, but this bill is a good step forward.

 

[zoroarctic]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/09/desantis-dont-say-gay-bill-florida/

Of all the terrible things mentioned here, this one about the West Virginia bill stood out the most.

The chief sponsor of the bill, state Sen. Michael Azinger (R), gave away the game in an exchange with a local news outlet. Azinger suggested that “negative” teachings of U.S. history must be monitored, whatever that’s supposed to mean. Then this happened:
REPORTER: You don’t think that racism played a part in U.S. history?

AZINGER: If you want [to ask] a loaded question, you can do that.

We’re probably not far off from Republicans denying slavery ever happened.

 

[Dorothy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/09/desantis-dont-say-gay-bill-florida/

Of all the terrible things mentioned here, this one about the West Virginia bill stood out the most.

We’re probably not far off from Republicans denying slavery ever happened.

American conservatives have wholly forfeited the right to complain about other countries "brainwashing" their citizens.

 

[zoroarctic]

American conservatives have wholly forfeited the right to complain about other countries "brainwashing" their citizens.

Turns out those complaints were actually expressions of envy. They’ve wanted to do this all along, and now they finally feel emboldened enough. I imagine we’ll see this and much more on a national scale the next time Republicans achieve a federal trifecta.

 

[Dorothy]

Turns out those complaints were actually expressions of envy. They’ve wanted to do this all along, and now they finally feel emboldened enough. I imagine we’ll see this and much more on a national scale the next time Republicans achieve a federal trifecta.

So three years from now, gotcha.

To think growing up the worst education policy the Republicans were gunning for was No Child Left behind...

 

[zoroarctic]

1. So three years from now, gotcha.

2. To think growing up the worst education policy the Republicans were gunning for was No Child Left behind...

1. Seven, more likely.

2. Remember the controversies about public schools teaching creationism? I really miss the simpler times.