American Politics Thread

[zoroarctic]

Could you please expand on that?

Trump is many things, but at his heart he seems to be a showman. Planning the capital attack while he is speaking takes the attention away from him, something that he loathes to happen. It also cancels out his plans to march down to the capital and speak in front of it, something he repeatedly said he was planning to do.

It just seems more plausible it was a spontaneous event pushed by the fervor of the crowd already down there, combined with the lack of security to push back against the crowd.

You just need to take a glance at the Wiki article.

From Trump's speech:

Spoiler

Trump called for his supporters to "walk down to the Capitol" to "cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them." He told the crowd that he would be with them, but he ultimately did not go to the Capitol. As to counting Biden's electoral votes, Trump said, "We can't let that happen" and suggested Biden would be an "illegitimate president".[216][217] Referring to the day of the elections, Trump said, "most people would stand there at 9:00 in the evening and say, 'I want to thank you very much,' and they go off to some other life, but I said, 'Something's wrong here. Something's really wrong. [It] can't have happened.' And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don't fight like Hell, you're not going to have a country anymore".[42]: 01:11:44  He said the protesters would be "going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give [Republicans] the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country".[219] Trump also said, "you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated".[216][217]

Trump denounced Representative Liz Cheney (R-WY), saying, "We've got to get rid of the weak Congresspeople, the ones that aren't any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world".[220] He called upon his supporters to "fight much harder" against "bad people"; told the crowd that "you are allowed to go by very different rules," said that his supporters were "not going to take it any longer"; framed the moment as the last stand, suggested that Pence and other Republican officials put themselves in danger by accepting Biden's victory;

And let's not forget everyone who spoke before Trump:

Spoiler

Mo Brooks (R-AL) was a featured speaker at the rally and spoke around 9 a.m., where he said, "Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass". And later, "Are you willing to do what it takes to fight for America? Louder! Will you fight for America?"[204][205]

Representative Madison Cawthorn (R–NC) said, "This crowd has some fight".[206] Amy Kremer told attendees, "it is up to you and I to save this Republic" and called on them to "keep up the fight".[97] Trump's sons, Donald Jr. and Eric, along with Eric's wife Lara Trump, also spoke, naming and verbally attacking Republican congressmen and senators who were not supporting the effort to challenge the Electoral College vote, and promising to campaign against them in future primary elections.[207] Donald Jr. said of Republican lawmakers, "If you're gonna be the zero and not the hero, we're coming for you".[208][209]

Rudy Giuliani repeated conspiracy theories that voting machines used in the election were "crooked" and at 10:50 called for "trial by combat".[210][211]

It doesn't matter if Trump wasn't actively planning the insurrection; he and his allies clearly wanted it to happen and had already spent weeks egging these people on.

 

[Big Lutz]

It doesn't matter if Trump wasn't actively planning the insurrection; he and his allies clearly wanted it to happen and had already spent weeks egging these people on.

I know this was covered ad-nauseum last year in the US but if telling people to "fight", is somehow code to engage in violent actions, then people on both sides of the aisle are guilty of that. As using the word fight is typical in political speeches to show you want the crowd to make their voices heard.

I do think Trump was happy when it happened, again it is why it turned me against him. I do not think he planned or prepared for it to happen. Too many things do not make sense for Trump to have wanted it to happen.

I would say that the seeds of it were not planted by Trump, but by the leftist riots seen during the summer of 2020, and this was just the pendulum swinging toward the right for some very bad actors. Or to put another way, there was going to be some kind of powder keg event on the right eventually after the summer of 2020, this just served to get so many people together and thus ignited it spontaneously when more and more people crowded toward the door.



Edit

I do notice your wiki article specifically edits Trump's quote to make it seem as if Trump is calling for violence against congressmen and women that day and not engaging in primarying them. Here is the full quote.

Spoiler

We have nothing to do with it. These groups are for, they're forming all over the United States. And we got to remember, in a year from now, you're going to start working on Congress and we got to get rid of the weak Congress, people, the ones that aren't any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world. We got to get rid of them. We got to get rid.

Similarly the part in your wiki article frames it as if he is telling the crowd that they have to play by a different set of rules, however it seems in the speech he is talking about the process in contesting the votes with the states. Again here is the full quote instead of the snippet the wiki presents.

Spoiler

The Republicans have to get tougher. You're not going to have a Republican Party if you don't get tougher. They want to play so straight. They want to play so, sir, yes, the United States. The Constitution doesn't allow me to send them back to the States. Well, I say, yes it does, because the Constitution says you have to protect our country and you have to protect our Constitution, and you can't vote on fraud. And fraud breaks up everything, doesn't it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you're allowed to go by very different rules.

That is just two examples from the wiki, if you want I could go through each one for added context.

Read Trump's Jan. 6 Speech, A Key Part Of Impeachment Trial

The former president's remarks are being used by Democrats hoping to convict him for incitement of insurrection — and are being defended by his lawyers in the Senate proceedings.

www.npr.org

 

[zoroarctic]

Too many things do not make sense for Trump to have wanted it to happen.

He wanted to overturn the election results anyway possible and saw the insurrection as a means to achieve that. It's not hard to figure out.

I would say that the seeds of it were not planted by Trump, but by the leftist riots seen during the summer of 2020, and this was just the pendulum swinging toward the right for some very bad actors. Or to put another way, there was going to be some kind of powder keg event on the right eventually after the summer of 2020, this just served to get so many people together and thus ignited it spontaneously when more and more people crowded toward the door.

One was a series of protests demanding racial justice, the other was an attempt to overthrow our government because a bunch of people didn't like the results of a free and fair election. These things are not the same.

In addition to being a bad comparison, it's also just wrong. The far-right has been engaging in violent terrorism since before Trump was elected.

 

[Big Lutz]

He wanted to overturn the election results anyway possible and saw the insurrection as a means to achieve that. It's not hard to figure out.

Except it takes away from his pre planned ego event, it takes away from his march, his rally, his defiant stand with the masses against the Evil Republicans and Democrats voting for a rigged election. Which is why I say he was happy when it did happen, but he did not plan for it to happen the way it did.

One was a series of protests demanding racial justice, the other was an attempt to overthrow our government because a bunch of people didn't like the results of a free and fair election. These things are not the same.

The theme matters little, the fact is that the left engaged in a very violent very destructive protest that burnt down buildings, killed people, and took over cities for weeks on end. Many on the right saw that and wished to engage in the same kind of wanton destruction, and it was just a matter of time until that happened.

In addition to being a bad comparison, it's also just wrong. The far-right has been engaging in violent terrorism since before Trump was elected.

The far left has been engaging in violent terrorism since before Trump was elected, the far left engaged in terrorism on the day Trump was elected, however I am hard pressed to remember events close as prolonged or as destructive as the summer of 2020.

 

[zoroarctic]

The far left has been engaging in violent terrorism since before Trump was elected, the far left engaged in terrorism on the day Trump was elected,

I've probably said this in the thread already, but it's worth repeating: Right-wing extremists have been responsible for a clear majority of domestic terror attacks and ~75% of all domestic terror deaths since 2009.

however I am hard pressed to remember events close as prolonged or as destructive as the summer of 2020.

I can't find an exact death count from the George Floyd protests, but it looks like most sources say 19. That's less than the number of people killed in the El Paso Walmart shooting 9 months earlier.

 

[Aulos]

sigh This election looks like it will be depressing. I dearly wish that people would stop falling for right wing nonsensical propaganda that gas prices and inflation are the result of Biden and the Democrats. No doubt those are major issues impacting Americans' lives. The problem is that it's not truthfully what is on the ballot here.

What is at stake?
Social security and medicare
Abortion
Same-sex marriage (and even further gay rights)
Transgender rights
Elections rightfully going to the person that actually won.
Plus much more.

America, you better wake up, right now. The more power the right takes, the worse things are going to get. The depths of which we could possibly descend I don't even want to describe. I don't want to have to. I hope we don't get to that point, but, being a student of history the alarms are blaring in my head about the trajectory of the right in the US. We must stop this.

My little post here won't make any difference, but I had to rant somewhere. lol

 

[RileyXY1]

Everyone is predicting a mild red wave with Republicans gaining control of both houses of Congress but their gains will be not as big as past red waves like 1994 and 2010. Notably, Sabato has made their final predictions which has the GOP flip both houses. They predict that there will be a net gain of 24 seats for the Republicans, with the House now being 237 R-198 D. They're also predicting a one seat gain for the GOP in the Senate, with Georgia being the only flip to either party with Raphael Warnock falling to challenger Hershel Walker. They also predict a net gain of one Governorship for the GOP, with Dems gaining Maryland and Massachusetts while the GOP gain Nevada, Kansas, and Wisconsin.

 

[Big Lutz]

I've probably said this in the thread already, but it's worth repeating: Right-wing extremists have been responsible for a clear majority of domestic terror attacks and ~75% of all domestic terror deaths since 2009.

Yes it will be interesting if the Republican investigation into the FBI next year addresses this in how they classify individual ANTIFA, BAMN, and BLM attacks and deaths.

I can't find an exact death count from the George Floyd protests, but it looks like most sources say 19. That's less than the number of people killed in the El Paso Walmart shooting 9 months earlier.

The damage from the riots were the costliest in American history as well, even if you adjust for inflation.

I am curious if the death count includes those that died in CHAZ or CHOP the area that declared independence from America after the protest started and became a lawless far left zone of rape and violence.

 

[Sheep40]

Oh fuck this thread just turned into reddit

 

[Volphied]

The damage from the riots were the costliest in American history as well, even if you adjust for inflation.

It's really funny how the only argument you seem to use is deflection, deflection, deflection.

Trump breaking laws? What about HiLLaRY?!
MAGA chuds attacking the Capitol? What about ANtiFA!?

Anyhow, can you tell me your opinion on this?

Timeline of FBI Investigation of Trump's Handling of Highly Classified Documents - FactCheck.org

Here we provide a timeline of the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago and its investigation of former President Donald Trump's handling of highly classified documents. We will update the timeline as warranted.

www.factcheck.org

CHALLENGE: Lutz tries to defend this blatant criminal act without mentioning Hillary (IMPOSSIBLE) (GONE WRONG)

 

[Big Lutz]

It's really funny how the only argument you seem to use is deflection, deflection, deflection.

Trump breaking laws? What about HiLLaRY?!
MAGA chuds attacking the Capitol? What about ANtiFA!?

Except as I note I see a direct line between the far left acting violent during the summer and the far right looking to retaliate in some form or fashion.

I also have not brought up Hillary at all in this except to note the Clinton Campaign pushed out the Russia narrative to delegitimize Trump’s win in the early hours after the election and started what was three years of useless investigations.

Anyhow, can you tell me your opinion on this?

Timeline of FBI Investigation of Trump's Handling of Highly Classified Documents - FactCheck.org

Here we provide a timeline of the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago and its investigation of former President Donald Trump's handling of highly classified documents. We will update the timeline as warranted.

www.factcheck.org

CHALLENGE: Lutz tries to defend this blatant criminal act without mentioning Hillary (IMPOSSIBLE) (GONE WRONG)

At face value what he did was completely wrong, I would like to see as the investigation deepens what the documents actually were, are we talking nuclear blueprints or love notes from North Korea, compare and contrast with anything previous presidents have kept, etc etc etc

 

[Volphied]

Except as I note I see a direct line between the far left acting violent during the summer and the far right looking to retaliate in some form or fashion.

Not really. MAGA chuds will find a "justification" for their violent acts no matter what. Just look at the QAnon insanity.

I also have not brought up Hillary at all in this except to note the Clinton Campaign pushed out the Russia narrative to delegitimize Trump’s win in the early hours after the election and started what was three years of useless investigations.

Yeah, sure. You didn't brought up her except when you did brought up her. So, anyway, do you agree with Trump's claim that he was the winner of the 2020 election?

At face value what he did was completely wrong, I would like to see as the investigation deepens what the documents actually were, are we talking nuclear blueprints or love notes from North Korea, compare and contrast with anything previous presidents have kept, etc etc etc

Trump isn't being investigated for taking "love notes" from dictators. He's being investigated for taking top secret documents. We know this. So why are you trying to reframe this into something completely different? (Trying to minimize the severity of his crimes already?)

A property receipt of the items taken from Mar-a-Lago listed 11 sets of classified records, including four sets labeled “Miscellaneous Top Secret Documents” and one marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” which stands for “Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information.”

The partial redacted search warrant for Mar-a-Lago revealed that Trump is under investigation for potentially violating any of three criminal codes involving the mishandling of classified information.

 

[Big Lutz]

Not really. MAGA chuds will find a "justification" for their violent acts no matter what. Just look at the QAnon insanity.

I am sure many would say the same for ANTIFA.

That does not take away from the point that the costliest riot in American history happened while the US was under lockdown and received sympathetic coverage from the media and the Democratic Party, and thus railed up the right in a way to act in a similar destructive fashion.

Yeah, sure. So do you agree with Trump's claim that he was the winner of the 2020 election?

I think there needs to be proper investigations into the election similar to the January 6th commission. I would not say he won or lost, just that the extraordinary measures taken because of CoVID should lead to investigations into any malfeasance.

Trump isn't being investigated for taking "love notes" from dictators. He's being investigated for taking top secret documents. We know this. So why are you trying to reframe this into something completely different? (Trying to minimize the severity of his crimes already?)

A property receipt of the items taken from Mar-a-Lago listed 11 sets of classified records, including four sets labeled “Miscellaneous Top Secret Documents” and one marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” which stands for “Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information.”

The partial redacted search warrant for Mar-a-Lago revealed that Trump is under investigation for potentially violating any of three criminal codes involving the mishandling of classified information.

Telling me their classification does not tell me anything about what they were, I am just waiting for more information into what kind of documents were taken.

 

[Volphied]

I am sure many would say the same for ANTIFA.

I'll keep that in mind when they attack the Capitol in order to instal Biden as President. But you're right now engaging in textbook whataboutism, so to speak. Nothing anybody did justifies Trump bringing a crowd to attack the Capitol and stop the certification of Biden's election win. Trump attempted a clumsy coup. Period.

I would not say he won or lost,

He lost. You're categorically wrong if you refuse to accept this.

Telling me their classification does not tell me anything about what they were,

But that's irrelevant, because he's not being investigated for the content of these documents, He's being investigated because he took documents that were clearly labeled as top secret. Again, you're trying to reframe this into something completely different in order to minimize it. I'm gonna stick to the core issue, if you don't mind. To summarize the extent of Trump's crime:

The property receipt shows that the FBI seized three sets of records labeled either “Confidential Document” or “Miscellaneous Confidential Documents,” three sets labeled “Miscellaneous Secret Documents,” and four sets labeled “Miscellaneous Top Secret Documents.” One set was listed as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” which stands for “Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information.”

“Top secret” is the highest level of classification because the classified information, if released, could cause “exceptionally grave damage to the national security,” as the National Archives explains on its website.

The search warrant reveals that Trump is under investigation for potentially violating any of these three criminal codes:

• Section 2071 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, which relates to someone who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys” a government record.
• Section 1519 of Title 18, which relates to someone who “knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States.”
• Section 793 of Title 18, which is part of the Espionage Act and deals with “gathering, transmitting or losing defense information.”

 

[Big Lutz]

He lost. You're categorically wrong if you refuse to accept this.

Then there should be a no problem with an investigation into the election to show Biden won and all procedures were followed, during a time when laws and procedures were changed so rapidly because of the virus.

But that's irrelevant, because he's not being investigated for the content of these documents, He's being investigated because he took documents that were clearly labeled as top secret. Again, you're trying to reframe this into something completely different in order to minimize it. I'm gonna stick to the core issue, if you don't mind. To summarize the extent of Trump's crime:

The property receipt shows that the FBI seized three sets of records labeled either “Confidential Document” or “Miscellaneous Confidential Documents,” three sets labeled “Miscellaneous Secret Documents,” and four sets labeled “Miscellaneous Top Secret Documents.” One set was listed as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” which stands for “Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information.”

“Top secret” is the highest level of classification because the classified information, if released, could cause “exceptionally grave damage to the national security,” as the National Archives explains on its website.

The search warrant reveals that Trump is under investigation for potentially violating any of these three criminal codes:

• Section 2071 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, which relates to someone who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys” a government record.
• Section 1519 of Title 18, which relates to someone who “knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States.”
• Section 793 of Title 18, which is part of the Espionage Act and deals with “gathering, transmitting or losing defense information.”

You merely asked my opinion on this, my opinion is subject to what is actually in the files, not the classification.

 

[Volphied]

Then there should be a no problem with an investigation into the election to show Biden won and all procedures were followed, during a time when laws and procedures were changed so rapidly.

This is coming from the same guy decrying investigations into Trump's blatant crimes?

Whatever, the fact remains that Trump lost to Biden. That you refuse to accept this tells me a lot about you. It tells me that when Trump orders you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears, you dutifully comply.

The only investigation that's gonna happen is this one:

Prosecutors in the state of Georgia are looking into alleged attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election result.
The criminal investigation was opened after the disclosure of an hour-long phone call between the former president and the state's top election official on 2 January 2021.
"I just want to find 11,780 votes," Mr Trump said during the call to Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger - a reference to the number of ballots needed to give him victory in the swing state. It's reported that investigators are examining potential criminal wrongdoing in calls made to Georgia officials, as well as alleged false statements made to politicians there.

You merely asked my opinion on this, my opinion is subject to what is actually in the files, not the classification.

But that's not how the law works. The law doesn't say that you're not allowed to keep love letters from dictators. The law says that hoarding documents labeled "top secret" is a crime. The actual content of the documents isn't going to change the top secret label on top of them. Once again, you're deflecting when faced with inconvenient truths.

 

[Big Lutz]

But that's not how the law works. The law doesn't say that you're not allowed to keep love letters from dictators. The law says that hoarding documents labeled "top secret" is a crime. The actual content of the documents isn't going to change the top secret label on top of them. Once again, you're deflecting when faced with inconvenient truths.

No I am merely stating my opinion on the matter which is what you asked for originally. As I said before and I will say again, from what we know now it does not look good for Trump, but personally I am waiting for more information before I make any sort of determination on the matter.

Right now we have very little to go on, and everything is portrayed through a partisan lens, that is a terrible way to make a judgement about such a very important situation.

 

[Volphied]

No I am merely stating my opinion on the matter

Like how you're stating your "opinion" on whether Trump lost to Biden?

Right now we have very little to go on, and everything is portrayed through a partisan lens

The Espionage Act is not "partisan". The fact that Trump hoarded documents labeled Top Secret is not "partisan". Literally the only partisan thing going on here right now is you treating American politics like a football match, cheering on for "Team Red" to defeat "Team Blue". Your attacks on Hillary are utterly futile, since I don't care about Hillary, nor did I ever supported her (I'm not even American). I'm not the one wearing a blue hat. You're the one who's wearing a red MAGA cap and aggressively deflecting, dismissing and whatabouting any criticism aimed at Trump and his numerous crimes and misconduct. The fact that you're unable to even accept that Trump lost the election to Biden is proof that you're willing to believe even the most fantastical lies that exited Trump's mouth. The partisan lens are over your eyes.

 

[Volphied]

Whew...

Whether one believes Trump's Big Lie about the 2020 election is a perfect litmus test, if I do say so myself.

"Who won the 2020 presidential election?"

If you say Biden won, congrats. That is what happened. It's a fact, not an "opinion" that Biden defeated Trump and is therefore the legitimate President.

If you say Trump won, congrats. You're officially utterly untethered from reality and can join the ranks with the Qanon lunatics currently orbiting Neptune.

If you say something like "I would not say [Trump] won or lost" then you're just telling me that on one hand you subconsciously realize that you will look like an utter clown if you'd say that Trump won, but on the other hand you're so deep inside Trump's alternate reality and invested so much into supporting him that you simply can't say out loud that Biden won.

Now which one's worse? The guy who fully believes Trump's lies about the 2020 election, or the guy who just "pretends" to believe them because he supports the Red Team no matter what happens. And the Republican Party is now the Party of Trump.

 

[Big Lutz]

If you believe so deeply that Biden won and you do not see this as a “football match” of one team versus another, then what problem do you have in investigating the election considering it was the largest mail in election in American history with many election rules and laws changed at the last moment?

No matter what the investigation finds it is not going to matter who is in the White House, they are not going to suddenly kick Biden out.

When Florida was so dangerously close in 2000 there were years of follow up investigations and recounts, in the end it determined Bush won by the limited recount method, while Gore would have won by a larger state wide recount.

Now I am not saying there should be a recount, but there were plenty of things made up on the fly in states, and events that happened late in the night on election night that are worth investigating.

Again what would it hurt? I mean this isn’t a football match right? What matters most is a free and fair result, not which hat wins? Right?

Edit: Early reports are that Democrats are having turnout/problems, so much so a larger red wave could be seen tonight.

https://twitter.com/redistrict/status/1590042484041986050?s=46&t=jvFYPGQ0iLt39-nl9gkutw