American Politics Thread

[Beer&Nyquil]

It’s not that I think there president should be a good role model, but I don’t want to elevate a sex criminal to the highest office essentially on the planet, for example

 

[Dorothy]

Centrist is usually the best option, though, since it's far away from both extremes (and both extremes are usually bad, when it comes to politics)

lol, how is this old chestnut still being trotted out? Look at France and tell me that centrism is the best option. Austerity and neoliberal policies are precisely what got us into this mess.

But Biden? The guy has been subjected to a #MeToo-style public shaming for hugging a few female colleagues ... Even though he apologized for it.

Weird way to spell "smelling women's hair and kissing their heads without permission," but go off.

He never apologized, also.

 

[zoroarctic]

Centrist is usually the best option, though, since it's far away from both extremes

As I noted in the last election thread, centrist Presidential candidates don't have a good track record here. The last centrist candidate from either party to win with a majority vote was Jimmy Carter in 1976, and he just barely got across 50%. Compare that to Obama, who campaigned as an unabashed liberal and won both elections fairly easily.

lol, how is this old chestnut still being trotted out? Look at France and tell me that centrism is the best option. Austerity and neoliberal policies are precisely what got us into this mess.

As much as I hate to say this, the "economic anxiety" narrative the media loves to push wasn't really that big of a factor in Trump's victory. Just about every bit of research over the last 2+ years has shown he won by tapping into racial resentment. So we might not be able to pick off many Trump voters by moving left on economics. On a more positive note, Trump's margin of victory was so narrow in the important states, we don't need many converts.

 

[Boss1708]

It’s not that I think there president should be a good role model, but I don’t want to elevate a sex criminal to the highest office essentially on the planet, for example

I think we ALL agree on that one. It's just a very extreme example.

And it's precisely why I defended Joe Biden. What he did really wasn't that terrible. It was weird and uncomfortable, sure, but it didn't deserve the #MeToo style shaming campaign he got. Let's reserve that for people like Harvey Weinstein (and, if possible, let's not wait so long before speaking out).

lol, how is this old chestnut still being trotted out? Look at France and tell me that centrism is the best option. Austerity and neoliberal policies are precisely what got us into this mess.

I think France is in its current state because Macron, in particular, is an awful president. Not because centrism in general doesn't work.

That said, I am not exactly centrist myself. I consider myself a conservative-leaning centrist, or a centrist-leaning conservative. I am more conservative on some issues, and more liberal on others. And I think that's the best way to go.

My point was that, for both a republican or a democrat, leaning towards the center is usually a good sign. But feel free to disagree, though.

Weird way to spell "smelling women's hair and kissing their heads without permission," but go off.

He never apologized, also.

He said he will be more careful in the future. That's an indirect apology. And again, the guy didn't do anything terrible. Just something inappropriate the he shouldn't repeat.

As I noted in the last election thread, centrist Presidential candidates don't have a good track record here. The last centrist candidate from either party to win with a majority vote was Jimmy Carter in 1976, and he just barely got across 50%. Compare that to Obama, who campaigned as an unabashed liberal and won both elections fairly easily.

Unabashed liberals promise a lot of rainbows and unicorns so I suppose it's easier to vote for them xD

the "economic anxiety" narrative the media loves to push wasn't really that big of a factor in Trump's victory. Just about every bit of research over the last 2+ years has shown he won by tapping into racial resentment.

I partially agree. I think the economic anxiety was part of the reason, but I agree that racial resentment was the key component of Trump's victory.

Personally, I think that's the media's fault. The American media and entertainment industry are so overwhelmingly liberal that they create reactionary voters on the right...

Whenever I watch a sitcom like Black-ish, or any of the Late Night shows, or people like Don Lemon and Trevor Noah, I am shocked by how much anti-white rhetoric is allowed on their shows, and how white guilt is constantly forced down people's throats. Basically, saying racist stuff about white people is depicted as something "funny", "amusing", and "acceptable". Apparently, only anti-black racism is bad...

You can only force the majority of the country (aka whites) to feel guilty for something they haven't done for some time. They will eventually get pissed off, and react. It's human nature.

 

[Dorothy]

As much as I hate to say this, the "economic anxiety" narrative the media loves to push wasn't really that big of a factor in Trump's victory. Just about every bit of research over the last 2+ years has shown he won by tapping into racial resentment. So we might not be able to pick off many Trump voters by moving left on economics. On a more positive note, Trump's margin of victory was so narrow in the important states, we don't need many converts.

I'm not speaking of economic anxiety or Trump's victory in particular. Neoliberal policies led directly to the erosion of the welfare state and the decimation of the labor movement, resulting in the present levels of economic inequality and disastrous deregulation which caused the 2008 financial crisis and will be the cause of the coming next recession. Centrism, in its fervor to bury class antagonism with vacuous compromise with business interests and the public good, is also thoroughly unequipped to deal with climate change, as the drastic measures needed to combat it, including nationalization of energy industries, are anathema to its core principles.

And it's precisely why I defended Joe Biden. What he did really wasn't that terrible. It was weird and uncomfortable, sure, but it didn't deserve the #MeToo style shaming campaign he got. Let's reserve that for people like Harvey Weinstein (and, if possible, let's not wait so long before speaking out).

He said he will be more careful in the future. That's an indirect apology. And again, the guy didn't do anything terrible. Just something inappropriate the he shouldn't repeat.
Unabashed liberals promise a lot of rainbows and unicorns so I suppose it's easier to vote for them xD

Speaking as a woman myself, I would kindly thank you not to dismiss actions which make women uncomfortable as "not that bad." He clearly has no conception of why what he did was wrong, since his statements on the matter have constantly refrained that he "never did anything intentionally inappropriate" and how it's just "how he does politics, he's very hands-on" (conveniently ignoring, of course, that he never touches men the way he touches women. No kissing or hair sniffing for men, just women! Funny!). He's also, explicitly, stated that he "is not sorry for anything [he's] ever done, meaning that uhhh, he's not sorry. That's not how apologies work.

I think France is in its current state because Macron, in particular, is an awful president. Not because centrism in general doesn't work.

He's an awful president because centrism doesn't work lol, Clinton was a terrible president for the same reason. Centrism demands a disdain for organized labor and working-class issues in favor of a vacuous technocratic consensus model that inevitably gives dangerous ground to right-wing ideas. See Clinton's odious policies on crime, designed as a deliberate break from previous, more progressive Democratic policy.

My point was that, for both a republican or a democrat, leaning towards the center is usually a good sign. But feel free to disagree, though.

Really? Was it a good sign when Obama bailed out the banks and protected executives from prosecution, leaving the architects of the financial crash untouched? Was it a good sign when Clinton gutted welfare and made conditions palpably worse for the struggling working poor? Was it a good sign when Obama allowed coups in Egypt and Honduras to occur uncontested?

Whenever I watch a sitcom like Black-ish, or any of the Late Night shows, or people like Don Lemon and Trevor Noah, I am shocked by how much anti-white rhetoric is allowed on their shows, and how white guilt is constantly forced down people's throats.

You can only force the majority of the country (aka whites) to feel guilty for something they haven't done for some time. They will eventually get pissed off, and react. It's human nature.

You're right, black people and Asian people and Native Americans and Latinx people should just get over the racial injustices and disparities which continue to exist and have never been sufficiently corrected or accounted for. Why are they whining, anyway? I don't see anything wrong with the way they're treated, so they shouldn't either.

 

[zoroarctic]

I'm not speaking of economic anxiety or Trump's victory in particular. Neoliberal policies led directly to the erosion of the welfare state and the decimation of the labor movement, resulting in the present levels of economic inequality and disastrous deregulation which caused the 2008 financial crisis and will be the cause of the coming next recession. Centrism, in its fervor to bury class antagonism with vacuous compromise with business interests and the public good, is also thoroughly unequipped to deal with climate change, as the drastic measures needed to combat it, including nationalization of energy industries, are anathema to its core principles.

I see, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Personally, I think there are times when centrism can work (see Eisenhower and pre-Watergate Nixon), but it largely depends on where the center is at the time.

 

[Boss1708]

Speaking as a woman myself, I would kindly thank you not to dismiss actions which make women uncomfortable as "not that bad."

What Biden did was a mistake, not a crime. All I'm defending here is they shouldn't try to ruin his presidential campaign just because the guy made a few women feel uncomfortable. Unintentionally.

Centrism demands a disdain for organized labor and working-class issues in favor of a vacuous technocratic consensus model that inevitably gives dangerous ground to right-wing ideas. See Clinton's odious policies on crime, designed as a deliberate break from previous, more progressive Democratic policy.

So, to summarize: right wing bad, left wing good. I get it.

You're right, black people and Asian people and Native Americans and Latinx people should just get over the racial injustices and disparities which continue to exist and have never been sufficiently corrected or accounted for. Why are they whining, anyway? I don't see anything wrong with the way they're treated, so they shouldn't either.

To quote the great Morgan Freeman (a famous white supremacist lol):

"You want to end racism? Stop talking about it. I am going to stop calling you a white man, and you are going to stop calling me a black man."

Identity politics are the favourite game of the left, and I absolutely hate that. Identity politics don't treat us as individuals, but just group us according to our race/gender/etc.

I am white. Therefore I am the oppressor. By default.

An other person is black. Therefore that person is the oppressed. By default.

The more the left continues to push identity politics down people's throats, the more the right is going to react. As I said, it's human nature.

 

[zoroarctic]

To quote the great Morgan Freeman (a renown white supremacist): "You want to end racism? Stop talking about it. Because while you talk about it, it exists."

What Mr. Freeman means is that constantly victimising an entire race won't solve the problem. Identity politics are the favourite game of the left, and I absolutely hate that.

Morgan Freeman is wrong. You cannot solve a problem by ignoring it. We’re still dealing with the effects of past racist laws and policies today, and it doesn’t help that the right has made stoking racial conflict a core part of their electoral strategy for the last 50+ years.

 

[Boss1708]

Morgan Freeman is wrong.

Morgan Freeman is absolutely correct.

You cannot solve a problem by ignoring it.

This stance on racism would've made sense in the 50's, but not today. Racism truly is a minor issue today (because there are very few racists), and the reason why it hasn't completely been eliminated from society, is because the left won't let it go. Because they need racism to exist, in order to keep minorities in check, and win their vote. Luckily not all blacks, latinos, asians, etc. fall for this cheap trick.

it doesn’t help that the right has made stoking racial conflict a core part of their electoral strategy for the last 50+ years.

It's the left who play identify politics. It's they who make racial conflict a core component of their electoral strategy. It's they who try to DIVIDE society by race/gender/sexual orientation/ minorities VS majority, etc. That's undeniable.

 

[dragon_nataku]

OK guys, I just wanna step in here to say that, while discussing politics is fine, please try not to bash eachother or attack eachother just for having different political opinions. No lines have been crossed yet but I think we're straying dangerously close to doing so. Less accusing X side of being to blame for Y thing, please.

 

[Aulos]

Actually, I think writing it off as "locker room banter" did make sense, given the context and the circumstances. He couldn't exactly say: "Yes, I was like that 15 years ago, but I changed for the better". Because admitting that he WAS like that in the past, wouldn't have been very popular for someone hoping to become POTUS.

But the evidence was there, it was solid. By saying it was just locker room banter, he, in fact, fully acknowledged it. It's just that instead of saying "I'm not like that", he went down the road of downplaying it. He did it in such a way that he actually made it so much worse to anyone that was actually playing attention. He not only didn't apologize, but he doubled down. He already had trivialized something so horrendous in that tape, but with this "just locker banter" rhetoric, he trivialized it even further. And it is NOT something that should be trivialized at all.

Honestly, Trump is the kind of person I wouldn't want near me. But that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't want him for President. I try to differentiate between the person and the president.

There are some personality traits that are undesirable that one might be able to tolerate in a president with good policies, but I don't think that this is one of them. I can actually go many different directions with this, this is how bad what Trump did was.

The first is recognizing how disgusting sexual assault is. Not only how disgusting and inhumane it is, but he bragged about it. And then downplayed it. To me this full-stop should have stopped him from coming anywhere near the presidency. It's not a simple "mistake". He is disgusting. I've never really dealt with sexual assault myself, but the way that this must make someone who has feel is just terrible.

The second is looking deeper at what he did, why he justified it, etc. and how it reflects upon his personality and the way he does things as a whole. Let me tell you, it doesn't paint a pretty picture, and should be a gigantic red flag that is too hard to miss. He straight-up said he did it because he was in a position where he could get away it. You look beyond the already disgusting sexual assault, and it paints an even larger picture of a man who has no problems at all with abusing power when it is given to him. That is quite simply not a trait that anyone should ever want to see so unapologetically from a president.

 

[zoroarctic]

This stance on racism would've made sense in the 50's, but not today. Racism truly is a minor issue today (because there are very few racists), and the reason why it hasn't completely been eliminated from society, is because the left won't let it go. Because they need racism to exist, in order to keep minorities in check, and win their vote. Luckily not all blacks, latinos, asians, etc. fall for this cheap trick.
It's the left who play identify politics. It's they who make racial conflict a core component of their electoral strategy. It's they who try to separate people by race/gender/etc. That's undeniable.

The problem here is that Republican operatives have admitted to it on numerous occasions. Here’s one: Nixon's Southern strategy
Former RNC chair Lee Atwater was even more direct: Exclusive: Lee Atwater’s Infamous 1981 Interview on the Southern Strategy
Also, the notion that racism isn’t a huge problem in the US anymore is simply not true. Since President Obama’s election in 2008, there’s been a surge the number of hate groups, hate group membership and hate crimes. That’s not a coincidence.

Edit: just saw Dragon’s post, so I think I’ll stop here to avoid risking thread derailment. Feel free to continue in PM if you want.

 

[Boss1708]

But the evidence was there, it was solid. By saying it was just locker room banter, he, in fact, fully acknowledged it. It's just that instead of saying "I'm not like that", he went down the road of downplaying it. He did it in such a way that he actually made it so much worse to anyone that was actually playing attention. He not only didn't apologize, but he doubled down. He already had trivialized something so horrendous in that tape, but with this "just locker banter" rhetoric, he trivialized it even further. And it is NOT something that should be trivialized at all.



There are some personality traits that are undesirable that one might be able to tolerate in a president with good policies, but I don't think that this is one of them. I can actually go many different directions with this, this is how bad what Trump did was.

The first is recognizing how disgusting sexual assault is. Not only how disgusting and inhumane it is, but he bragged about it. And then downplayed it. To me this full-stop should have stopped him from coming anywhere near the presidency. It's not a simple "mistake". He is disgusting. I've never really dealt with sexual assault myself, but the way that this must make someone who has feel is just terrible.

The second is looking deeper at what he did, why he justified it, etc. and how it reflects upon his personality and the way he does things as a whole. Let me tell you, it doesn't paint a pretty picture, and should be a gigantic red flag that is too hard to miss. He straight-up said he did it because he was in a position where he could get away it. You look beyond the already disgusting sexual assault, and it paints an even larger picture of a man who has no problems at all with abusing power when it is given to him. That is quite simply not a trait that anyone should ever want to see so unapologetically from a president.

I agree with the majority of the points you make. And honestly, this is the biggest reason I don't like Trump as a person. I do think he is unfairly accused of being racist, homophobic and xenophobic (I don't see any evidence of those whatsoever), but the "grab them by the ..." audio clearly shows he is a misogynist. Well, technically, it shows he was a misogynist in the past, and as I said, sometimes people change for the better. But I just have a hard time to believe he has changed.

I just want to point out that I distinctly remember Trump saying "I am not proud of what I said. That's not my opinion of women." I don't really believe him, but I am just pointing out he didn't exactly double down and act all proud of what he said.

The problem here is that Republican operatives have admitted to it on numerous occasions. Here’s one: Nixon's Southern strategy
Former RNC chair Lee Atwater was even more direct: Exclusive: Lee Atwater’s Infamous 1981 Interview on the Southern Strategy
Also, the notion that racism isn’t a huge problem in the US anymore is simply not true. Since President Obama’s election in 2008, there’s been a surge the number of hate groups, hate group membership and hate crimes. That’s not a coincidence.

Edit: just saw Dragon’s post, so I think I’ll stop here to avoid risking thread derailment. Feel free to continue in PM if you want.

You are talking about the past of Republicans. I am talking about the present. Big difference.

And racism is a minority issue. I do think racism is once again growing, though. But that is happening, ironically, because of the left, not the right. The left tries to basically make today's white people feel ashamed of something they haven't done, and constantly paints them as "the oppressor" or "the enemy". So as a consequence of this unfair anti-white rhetoric, white people get mad. And that is how new racism is born. It's so ironic it hurts. And that's precisely what Morgan Freeman meant by saying "stop talking about racism".

Edit: oh, I just saw a mod has asked us to be careful. Anyway, I think I have said everything I wanted to say on the matter.

 

[Boss1708]

I forgot to add a link of the Morgan Freeman video I referenced earlier. Here it is, if anyone wants to watch it. Absolutely brilliant response:


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RwJlQdzpE

 

[zoroarctic]

Breaking news: Joe Biden does something smart!

Joe Biden, in South Carolina presidential campaign stop, says Trump and Republicans allowing Jim Crow to return

The former vice president charged that Jim Crow is "sneaking back in" as he emphasized voting rights at his first presidential campaign stop in South Carolina.

www.chicagotribune.com

He’s not my first choice, obviously, but I’m glade Biden said this. It always perplexed me that Democrats didn’t treat voting rights as a bigger deal before.

 

[Dorothy]

Breaking news: Joe Biden does something smart!

Joe Biden, in South Carolina presidential campaign stop, says Trump and Republicans allowing Jim Crow to return

The former vice president charged that Jim Crow is "sneaking back in" as he emphasized voting rights at his first presidential campaign stop in South Carolina.

www.chicagotribune.com

He’s not my first choice, obviously, but I’m glade Biden said this. It always perplexed me that Democrats didn’t treat voting rights as a bigger deal before.

Joe Biden has a lot of gall talking about Jim Crow "sneaking back in" when The New Jim Crow was specifically written about the mass incarceration and War on Drugs he personally helped create - including the use of conviction as a pretext to strip voting rights. Anything he says on this issue without acknowledging that is talking out the side of his mouth.

 

[zoroarctic]

View: https://twitter.com/forecasterenten/status/1131162061206171648?s=21


This falls almost right in line with Trump’s approval numbers, which have been remarkably stable over the last 2+ years.

 

[Aulos]

Now lets hope that opposition shows up to the polls instead of staying home because the Democrat candidate isn't perfectly to their liking.

 

[zoroarctic]

Now lets hope that opposition shows up to the polls instead of staying home because the Democrat candidate isn't perfectly to their liking.

That’s what I’m worried about. If Biden takes all these hits from the left and still wins the nomination, we could be in trouble.
Of course, if Biden does pull it off and beat Trump, it would raise the question of why people were more willing to vote for him than Hillary. (I think the answer’s pretty obvious)

 

[Dorothy]

I forgot to add a link of the Morgan Freeman video I referenced earlier. Here it is, if anyone wants to watch it. Absolutely brilliant response:


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RwJlQdzpE

Morgan Freeman was accused of sexual harassment by eight women so I don't care what he has to say even if he was right, which he isn't.