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American Politics Thread

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Were we watching the same debate? Trump was the only one who was having a public meltdown. I can't blame Biden for getting angry at his relentless interrupting.

The next debate might be a bit different, in order to prevent Trump from wrecking it again with his tantrum:

View: https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1311389477173178369


yep and all they did was argue and interrupt each other

in fact the second he told trump to shut up he resorted to the same crap tactics trump did every tiime and fell for trump's BS ( that was trump's mission to get him to say something like that ) and by falling for it he proved to many American like myself and many many more people around the world he is not worthy of the oval office nor deserves it either


it time for people to wake up and realize if these two Muppets are the best this two system produces it time for the system to be changed and if it can't abolished

I'm done playing the lesser of two evil BS and have been since 2016 primaries in which the DNC a private corporation (yeah look it up its a private corporation he they said so in court the RNC is to ) bent over backward for HRC and made it so Bernie would never win (they also said in this court case Bernie could have gotten every vote in the primaries and caucuses and they still would have picked Clinton because there are enough superdelegate to override the public vote ) they did it in this primary with tulsi and Bernie again the reason they hate tulsi is because she isn't a partisan hack party leadership nor the oligarchs and lobbyist the run the circus in DC same with bernie

not mention the democrat party has moved so far to right over the last 20 years that other than social issues like gay marriage, gun control, abortion and few others there now bush and Clinton republican as seen on this chart
from here
you can do test your self even and check it out for yourself and how far they have drifted to right its nuts this is where i'm on scale basically in many ways i'm a libertarian socialist

and george carlin was right on this read more here
 

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yep and all they did was argue
I mean, it is a debate.
in fact the second he told trump to shut up he resorted to the same crap tactics trump did every tiime and fell for trump's BS ( that was trump's mission to get him to say something like that ) and by falling for it he proved to many American like myself and many many more people around the world he is not worthy of the oval office nor deserves it either
Hard disagree there. There's plenty of things wrong with Biden, but telling Trump to shut up is not one of them. Most people want him to shut up.
not mention the democrat party has moved so far to right over the last 20 years that other than social issues like gay marriage, gun control, abortion and few others there now bush and Clinton republican as seen on this chart
I fully agree that the Democrat party is really more right-wing than they pretend, but I don't think they've really moved to the right. It's not like they were that great on past issues to begin with.
 
not mention the democrat party has moved so far to right over the last 20 years that other than social issues like gay marriage, gun control, abortion and few others
This is simply not true. Today’s Democratic Party is by far the most left-wing it’s been at any point in its history in just about every facet.
 
Trump's favorite poll, which has generally had more positive numbers in his favor recently has shown Biden leading by 12 points


View: https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1313864229707866113?s=19

Just want to say: While yes this is technically encouraging news, it's not a reason (nor any reason) to become complacent. (Not saying you are, I'm saying this in general.)

During the 2016 election, Hilary was leading in numbers. I distinctively remember at the time how my friend was feeling very good about these numbers and was confident that Trump would lose (they still voted of course)....even though I kept trying to tell them not to get their hopes up. And then the very opposite happened where Trump still won.

So yeah, while the leading numbers are good to see, they aren't a guaranteed indicator of how the election will go. Elections are unpredictable and even with the massive negativity Trump and the GOP are now facing, things can still go either way.
 
Just want to say: While yes this is technically encouraging news, it's not a reason (nor any reason) to become complacent. (Not saying you are, I'm saying this in general.)

During the 2016 election, Hilary was leading in numbers. I distinctively remember at the time how my friend was feeling very good about these numbers and was confident that Trump would lose....even though I kept trying to tell them not to get their hopes up. And then the very opposite happened where Trump still won.

So yeah, while the leading numbers are good to see, they aren't a guaranteed indicator of how the election will go. Elections are unpredictable and even with the massive negativity Trump and the GOP are now facing, things can still go either way.

It's true that Biden's win isn't a guarantee, BUT it has to be mentioned that this isn't the 2016 election, and Biden's lead is quite different from Clinton's. Clinton's poll numbers were within the margin of error in swing states... Biden isn't in quite a few of them. Plus, look at these graphs I saw on another forum that compare the 2016 election polling to the 2020 polling.

2016:
57bf1c8ab996ebef008b479e


2020:
RCP-Trump-Biden-Featured.png


There is a clear takeaway here:
In 2016, Clinton's lead was actually more inconsistent than we remember. There are times in the months leading up where Trump was leading, and there are other times when it got really close. Not only has Trump never led in the polls for the 2020 election, he has never been anywhere close. Biden has led him by a significant margin all along.

If Biden somehow loses this election, you can bet something fishy happened.
 
It's true that Biden's win isn't a guarantee, BUT it has to be mentioned that this isn't the 2016 election
I know that. I just want to emphasize that it's better to exercise caution. I don't want people to look at these numbers and think "Oh Biden is leading so he's likely to win, I don't have to vote then". No, don't do that. If anything these numbers should be an encouragement to vote and press on harder.

I don't want to be pessimistic of course, but previous life experiences have taught me to always expect the worst. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as they say.
 
I mean, it is a debate.

Hard disagree there. There's plenty of things wrong with Biden, but telling Trump to shut up is not one of them. Most people want him to shut up.

I fully agree that the Democrat party is really more right-wing than they pretend, but I don't think they've really moved to the right. It's not like they were that great on past issues to begin with.

you missing the point of the debate then. most people want biden to shut up to but that didn't stop him from talking out of turn either

This is simply not true. Today’s Democratic Party is by far the most left-wing it’s been at any point in its history in just about every facet.

no it really isn't there hasn't been a major leftist/ progressive and possibly liberal movement among the 2 big players in this country in 50 years but were not then it wasn't "TRUE lleftist/ progressive movement
did you know the civil rights movement was in many ways a communist/socialist black power movement which is why Reagan got gun control passed in the California hell THE civil rights acts were passed because of rioting, looting and burning stuff as the peaceful protest only did so much (which in many ways was very little in many places of the country) hell protestors had to be armed or they could have easily been shoot & massacred by the cops and or state nation guards it only became a many stream for those in DC because of them and the fact Southern white many of who were Dixiecrats were increasingly increasingly afraid and and thought it would be an way to appease them

to find the last real one you would have to go back almost 100 years
asdid you know this movement that almost got universal healthcare passed before the insurance, hospital and big pharma invested millions to block it, This movement was responsible for the FDA, it was also responsible for anti trust laws the new deal etc hell was only because of pollical pressure (from the green party and libertarian party that democrats changed there tune on gay marriage abortion only became an issue because Christian dominionistic evangelical theocrats saw roe v wade as way to rally a motivate there base to vote for candidate they wanted to put in power to support there attempts at a theocracy interestingly enough the movement had its origins in segregation



on stage the liberal progressive may seemingly run the show because they make the most racket but the simple fact is on the hill its a old "centrist" like pelosi driving the car which are blocking any real progressives like AOC or Bernie from getting even a Medicare for all or even the green new deal even in committee in the house even

THE Only real leftist/progressive' movement party outside some communist's/socialist parties is the green party



in fact if you actually did deep into the voting record well over 50 to 66% of cases most bills and positions in DC are passed with bipartisan support and little backlash including but no limited to the NDAA of 2012 which allows the president to lock up any american citizen in the world as long as there termed "enemy combatants" , that was abased on the clause that has been indefinitely extended the original usa patriot act that cover illegal immigrants (the basis of the trump and earlier obama cages), warrantless search and seizures, rove less wiretaps remember FISA ,PRISM etc remember both parties approved the the gulf war, iraq, the war of terror, the ever expanding Military industrial complex, the ever expanding government bureaucracy oh letys no forget free speech zones to and/or the fact in many places you need to buy a permit to protest the list goes on


Anti trust laws were meant to prevent roughly 4 media corporations from opening 90% of the media in this country it was intened to prevent the consolidation of BIG PHARMA the automotive industry, tech giants the fact if your go to Walmart or any major retailer thefact that Only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world. like (pepesi and Coca cola Aare examples) but because the government is bought sold and essentially owned by the same people nowadays the sherman antitrust law is very little if enforced anymore which is why amazon and facebook are so massive and all the other corps are

people like the bring up the supreme court which is true to an extent i guess but they largely rubberstamp almost everything the current administration is doing for unless it egregiously bad for fear of being court packed like FDR was planning

https://www.businessinsider.com/10-companies-control-food-industry-2017-3 These 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In America

THE media one is down to 4 considering viacom and cbs merged GE no longer own Comcast but its its own company that owns nbc and nbc universal At&T own time warner
did you also know iHeartMedia, Inc. (aka Clear Channel), Cumulus Media, Inc., Townsquare Media, and Entercom own more radio stations than all other radio companies combined.


i love this video by george carlin , and this one to here
i also agree with george carlin on this statement although its the reason i vote 3rd party

"Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says, “They suck”.
But where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality.
No, they come from American homes, American families, American schools, American churches, American businesses, and they’re elected by American voters.This is the best we can do, folks. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.
….I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don’t vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain.
Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, “If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain”, but where’s the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain.
I, on the other hand, who did not vote — who did not even leave the house on Election Day — am in no way responsible for that these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created. That I didn’t have anything to do with.
So when you’re having one of those swell elections that you like so much…on that day I will be doing essentially the same as you…the only difference is when I get done ************ I’ll have a little something to show for it.
 
you missing the point of the debate then
So, what is the point if not to argue?
most people want biden to shut up to but that didn't stop him from talking out of turn either
Biden is not as bad as Trump. There's no way around that. You can and should criticize Biden for a lot, but that doesn't mean that we should say "Oh don't tell Trump to shut up!"
no it really isn't there hasn't been a major leftist/ progressive and possibly liberal movement among the 2 big players in this country in 50 years but were not then it wasn't "TRUE lleftist/ progressive movement
Swiftfox didn't say it was left-wing, he said it's the most left-wing it's been. We agree that there's no major leftist movements in the country- that's why we're saying that Democrats haven't moved right, they've always been that way.
did you know the civil rights movement was in many ways a communist/socialist black power movement which is why Reagan got gun control passed in the California hell THE civil rights acts were passed because of rioting, looting and burning stuff as the peaceful protest only did so much (which in many ways was very little in many places of the country) hell protestors had to be armed or they could have easily been shoot & massacred by the cops and or state nation guards it only became a many stream for those in DC because of them and the fact Southern white many of who were Dixiecrats were increasingly increasingly afraid and and thought it would be an way to appease them
Dude most people on this thread are leftists and agree with that, but that doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. The Civil Rights Movement was not formed by Democrats, it was formed by leftists. Democrats were even more right-wing then.
Anti trust laws were meant to prevent roughly 4 media corporations from opening 90% of the media in this country it was intened to prevent the consolidation of BIG PHARMA the automotive industry, tech giants the fact if your go to Walmart or any major retailer thefact that Only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world. like (pepesi and Coca cola Aare examples) but because the government is bought sold and essentially owned by the same people nowadays the sherman antitrust law is very little if enforced anymore which is why amazon and facebook are so massive and all the other corps are
Yeah. That sucks. And it's not going to get any better by letting people re-elect the tangerine who boasts about rolling back regulations and taxes on corporations.
"Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says, “They suck”.
But where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality.
No, they come from American homes, American families, American schools, American churches, American businesses, and they’re elected by American voters.This is the best we can do, folks. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.
American homes, families, schools, churches, and businesses are all wildly different. Do you honestly think Trump's home is comparable to the home of a working-class American? That Biden's years in the senate are like working in a small business? That the rich Americans able to pay for private schools and high tuitions get the same experiences as people in public schools and community colleges?
….I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don’t vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain.
Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, “If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain”, but where’s the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain.
I, on the other hand, who did not vote — who did not even leave the house on Election Day — am in no way responsible for that these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created. That I didn’t have anything to do with.
That's a very stupid argument that does nothing but encourage political apathy.

Politics in America will continue on whether or not you engage with it. It's not like abstaining from voting means you don't get affected by their policies- it just means that you give up the small bit of control that you do have, and let the Overton Window continue to shift to the right. Voting is not enough, but not voting won't accomplish anything, other than bragging that "You can't hold me responsible because I didn't do anything". You can't possibly believe that everyone around you won't vote- you're not changing a system, you're just giving power to the voters around you.

And what about the people who voted for politicians that didn't get into office? Do you hold them just as accountable for a decision that they worked against? Or are they blameless like people who don't vote? And if they're just as blameless, then what benefit is there to not voting?
 
*stares in LGBT rights & election of Black President*
If you truly believe the party’s been more liberal before today, feel free to point to when.

(note: I may edit my response later to be... more complete? with some supporting info? for grammar/etc?)

Another note: I'm going to not respond directly to this quote, but go on a broader tangent.
I also do not have much knowledge on social and political history, and definitely not on US political party positions (by claim & by action) historically, despite compulsory schooling on the matter...

Another quick aside first: from an economic point of view for the median (and majority) of Americans, the best (relative) real incomes and way of life happened decades ago. Inequality has been rising.

On the human rights front around the world, things overall have seem to be getting better, if you look at it from a big picture trendline point of view. Certainly there's been a great shift in public opinion on various social rights matters, regarding race, gender equality, voting, etc. At the same time, the last few years have seen the rise of pockets of far-right politics and also the rise in several places of strongman governance models. I don't know how that will factor into the bigger picture when these years become a somewhat more clear part of history. And of course, while human rights improve, they seem to improve at a glacial pace.
Americans as a nation are still struggling with civil rights issues that should have been resolved ages ago. That said, I agree there are some good places the Democratic party is now that wouldn't have been imaginable years ago.
 
So, what is the point if not to argue?

Biden is not as bad as Trump. There's no way around that. You can and should criticize Biden for a lot, but that doesn't mean that we should say "Oh don't tell Trump to shut up!"

tbf I understand what they mean to an extent; there's arguing and then there's arguing. The "point" of debates (setting aside for a moment the very performative nature of them) is, I would say, more to clearly and convincingly articulate your ideas on policy and critique those of your opponent. It's not supposed to be a crass, all-out flame war where two people just call each other stupid. (I'm not saying that's what the Presidential debate was - it largely was on Trump's end, but not Biden's - I'm just illustrating the extreme end of the continuum.)

That being said, I also think that many people and especially the media are too precious about decorum and "civility." The thing is, a healthy "dude, just shut up" @ someone who just keeps rambling over and over about the same inane conspiracy theory or racist talking points is a natural and relatable response. It can be cathartic (kind of like those studies that show how swearing in response to an injury or stressful situation can help relieve the pain), and I firmly disagree with the notion that it is equally as bad as the relentless parroting of those lies and vitriol itself.
 
Yeah, and Cunningham has a shot at beating Tom Tillis, so I'd be pretty irritated too if this cost the Democrats the Senate majority, and there are a few seats that could get flipped. It is possible they could flip the senate namely with Martha McSally's seat, Susan Collin's seat, and possibly even Lindsay Graham's seat. If we can't flip the senate and Biden wins, its still gonna be difficult for him to undo a lot of the damage Trump has done.

If those 3 seats were flipped and Cunningham's scandal ruined their chances at the majority, we'd still have a 50-50 split. That would still be good because if Biden won, Kamala Harris would be the tie breaker. Unfortunately though, Lindsay Graham might be slightly less likely to flip, and Doug Jones is very vulnerable, so even without Collins and McSally, it would still be a 52-48 Republican majority.
 
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