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American Presidential Election Thread, 2020 Edition

Jabberwocky

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Yeah, I don’t think we need democrats running on explicitly anti socialist platforms in any positions of power at this point
Implicitly anti-socialist campaigns aren't very much better. I don't expect Booker or Harris would be much better on that front than Hickenlooper or Ryan.
 

swiftfox

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I don't think we can afford to get hung up on purity tests this time around. Flipping the Senate is almost as important as taking down Trump.
 

Jabberwocky

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I don't think we can afford to get hung up on purity tests this time around. Flipping the Senate is almost as important as taking down Trump.
It's hardly a purity test to insist that a candidate not obviously be planning on walking back their campaign promises and governing from the right once in office.
 

Volphied

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Seeing how Trump is behaving right now, it's becoming obvious that he's determined to pander to his racist base as the election year draws closer.

When Donald Trump declared himself a “nationalist,” he was telling the truth, but he was inadequately specific.

When Trump told the four Democratic congresswomen to “go back,” he was not making a factual claim about where they were born. He was stating his ideological belief that American citizenship is fundamentally racial, that only white people can truly be citizens, and that people of color, immigrants in particular, are only conditionally American. This is a cornerstone of white nationalism, and one of the president’s few closely held ideological beliefs. It is a moral conviction, not a statement of fact. If these women could all trace their family line back to 1776, it would not make them more American than Trump, a descendant of German immigrants whose ancestors arrived relatively recently, because he is white and they are not.

After telling minority members of Congress to go back to where they “came from,” Trump has now accused the women of “foul language & racist hatred.” White nationalists in the United States have always asserted that they are, in fact, the true victims of racial hatred, even as they’ve demanded the exclusion of nonwhites from the polity. Trump's rejoinder that his targets are the real racists will resonate with the voters in his base, the overwhelming majority of whom believe that they are the true victims of discrimination, and who are likely to see criticism of the president’s remarks as an affirmation of their own victimhood.

This is not, fundamentally, a battle over facts, but a clash of values. Trump’s rise to the leadership of the Republican Party began with his embrace of the racist conspiracy theory that the first black president was not born in America. The point was not that birtherism is false, which its adherents all know; the point was that people like Barack Obama (a black man, a second-generation immigrant with an Arabic middle name) can never truly be American the way white people who got here yesterday can. Embracing birtherism meant embracing the idea that American citizenship only truly belongs to white people, a principle from which Trump has never wavered since.

Trump launched is election campaign with racist attacks on Mexicans. He will naturally return to his "greatest hits" for his re-election campaign.
 

swiftfox

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I mean, really, what else is Trump going to do? What does he have to show to his supporters? His tax cuts only benefit the super wealthy, his trade wars are killing their farms, and those blue collar jobs he promised to save are still vanishing at a rapid pace. Racial grievance is all he has left at this point. Hopefully swing voters don't fall for it this time around.

Also, I think it's worth remembering the only people who ever hated America enough to leave it en masse were white Southern conservatives.
 

Weiss

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I mean, really, what else is Trump going to do? What does he have to show to his supporters? His tax cuts only benefit the super wealthy, his trade wars are killing their farms, and those blue collar jobs he promised to save are still vanishing at a rapid pace. Racial grievance is all he has left at this point. Hopefully swing voters don't fall for it this time around.

Also, I think it's worth remembering the only people who ever hated America enough to leave it en masse were white Southern conservatives.
I wanted to avoid writing here as I’m not an American. I’m also not a Trump fan but afaik the Tax Cut benefited anyone who paid taxes. I know a lot of people from my WoW guild who got thousands of dollars off their taxes. Does it benefit the wealthy more yes of course but it’s based off how much tax you pay so what you said about the tax cut is not true.

As far as racial grievances go it seems that it is the Democrats that are pushing this sadly. I don’t think it is a clever move if they want to stop Trump getting a second term. I’d not count Trump out the fact “the wall” is not built could hurt or help him. He stands there and says I need another term to build the wall and that’s a lock of a big section of voters frankly. The economy is doing well at least on paper (I can’t speak for actual on the ground Americans). Combine this with the crazy talk some of the Democrats are talking and it looks like another victory for the incumbent which is always more likely historically anyway.

As someone who spent the majority of her life living in Asia I don’t know why people conflate nationalist with racism. I believe this is either a deliberate smear of people are very ill informed. If you ask any Japanese person if they are a nationalist/pro-Japan/Japan first you are not going to see any many if any say no. I also think it’s a bit racist to assume that you can’t have anyone who is not white be an American nationalist/pro America. Which seems to be the narrative that it’s purely a white thing maybe I misunderstood?
 

swiftfox

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Weiss

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Here in the US, it has more to do with this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/16/its-not-just-trump-many-whites-view-people-color-less-american/

Plus, given how many times nationalism has been paired with racism and other kinds of bigotry, it’s not hard to see why people would be suspicious.

I still don’t see that as reasonable justification for “nationalism” to be this dirty word. I was born in Japan to European parents who worked there no one in Japan would call me Japanese.

Western Europe and it’s former colonies have in recent times changed how they see nationality. Most other countries still work on the system of where your parents are from is your nationality.

When I tell “white” people this about Japan they say of course you’re not Japanese (having blonde hair and blue eyes it’s obvious). but if a Japanese or African person whatever is born in the UK or America somehow they are British or American? There is a double standard.

Again I really don’t like Trump as a person but up until the mid 19th century the dictionary listed American as a person of European descent and the words my English brethren were used in declaration of independence. I don’t think what he said was racist if you don’t like your neighbourhood your free to move. Yet a lot of people wish to move to the USA or UK or Sweden etc without consent of the native population and then complain makes no sense to me. Again I have permission to reside in Japan I don’t currently but if I were to go back and complain I’d soon find that privilege revoked that’s not racist.
 
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Poké Boss

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I always cringe when I see the Washington Post used as a reliable source...
Plus, given how many times nationalism has been paired with racism and other kinds of bigotry, it’s not hard to see why people would be suspicious.
That's one of my problems with the left, actually: some people (a tiny minority) use the word "nationalism" as a codeword for "white supremacy", therefore EVERYONE should be banned from using the word "nationalism".

Like someone recently told me: Nazis eat food. Should we stop eating food as well?
still don’t see that as reasonable justification for “nationalism” to be this dirty word. I was born in Japan to European parents who worked there no one in Japan would call me Japanese.
Western Europe and it’s former colonies have in recent times changed how they see nationality. Most other countries still work on the system of where your parents are from is your nationality.
I tell “white” people this about Japan they say of course you’re not Japanese (having blonde hair and blue eyes it’s obvious). but if a Japanese or African person whatever is born in the UK or America somehow they are British or American?
There is a double standard.
Wow. You made so many good points.. You addressed so many "elephants in the room" here, that you could form your own Zoo. (y)
 
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swiftfox

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When I tell “white” people this about Japan they say of course you’re not Japanese (having blonde hair and blue eyes it’s obvious). but if a Japanese or African person whatever is born in the UK or America somehow they are British or American? There is a double standard.
There's no double standard. The US has unconditional birthright citizenship; anyone born in the US or one of its territories is granted full American citizenship, period.

Again I really don’t like Trump as a person but up until the mid 19th century the dictionary listed American as a person of European descent and the words my English brethren were used in declaration of independence.
That happens to be around the same time as a major event that completely reshaped American society. Probably not a coincidence.

I don’t think what he said was racist if you don’t like your neighbourhood your free to move.
It is racist under Federal law: Trump's Tweets So Clearly Racist It's Spelled Out In Discrimination Law

I always cringe when I see the Washington Post used as a reliable source...
What's the article wrong about?
That's one of my problems with the left, actually: some people (a tiny minority) use the word "nationalism" as a codeword for "white supremacy", therefore EVERYONE should be banned from using the word "nationalism".
Always worth remembering: that "tiny minority" started a massive World War that killed more than 50 million people.
Also, nobody's trying to ban the word "nationalism." No need to make up conflicts that aren't there.

BTW, Trump's rally in North Carolina last night was terrifying. I have a bad feeling this will only get worse as we get closer to election day.
 

Volphied

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As far as racial grievances go it seems that it is the Democrats that are pushing this sadly.
How are Democrats at fault here? Are they really just supposed to "go back to their countries"?

He stands there and says I need another term to build the wall and that’s a lock of a big section of voters frankly.
Americans by nearly 2 to 1 oppose Donald Trump’s attempts to build a wall across the U.S.-Mexico border and just three in 10 in the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll support making it harder for undocumented immigrants to request asylum protection in the United States.

64% percent oppose Trump declaring a national emergency in order to build a wall without congressional approval, while 34% back him. That includes 55% who “strongly” disapprove, vs. 28% who strongly support.

Just 30%, moreover, favor making it harder for undocumented immigrants to seek asylum, as Trump has proposed. Essentially as many, 27%, would make it easier, while 34% favor leaving the law as it is now.

Other opinions likewise are sharply partisan. But even among Republicans, just fewer than half, 46%, favor making it harder for undocumented immigrants to request asylum. Support for the idea is highest, 54%, among strong conservatives. That falls to a third of independents, a quarter of moderates and about one in seven Democrats and liberals alike.


As someone who spent the majority of her life living in Asia I don’t know why people conflate nationalist with racism. I believe this is either a deliberate smear of people are very ill informed. If you ask any Japanese person if they are a nationalist/pro-Japan/Japan first you are not going to see any many if any say no.
Really? Doesn't East Asia have a sordid history concerning nationalism, especially the whole China vs. Japan vs. Korea hatred and xenophobia that is fueled by nationalism?

Poké Boss said:
I always cringe when I see the Washington Post used as a reliable source...
That has more to do with your own personal biases than anything WaPo does.
 

Poké Boss

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What's the article wrong about?
I think the Washington Post is terribly left-biased in general. I didn't mean this article in particular.
Always worth remembering: that "tiny minority" started a massive World War that killed more than 50 million people.
Again, they also ate food. Should we stop eating food just to differentiate ourselves from them?

The left is all about keeping people in fear. The exact same thing they're accusing Trump of doing.
Also, nobody's trying to ban the word "nationalism." No need to make up conflicts that aren't there.
Nobody is trying to ban the word, but leftist mainstream media is depicting it as a synonym of white supremacy, which is wrong.
 
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Volphied

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I think it has to do with your own personal biases not allowing you to see WaPo's obvious left bias.
What left bias?

And which news sources do you recommend then?

Again, they also ate food. Should we stop eating food just to differentiate ourselves from them?
Are you saying that nationalism wasn't an important part of what caused WW2? I know for sure that food tastes wasn't.

The left is all about keeping people in fear. The exact same thing they're accusing Trump of doing.
Examples?
 
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Poké Boss

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What left bias?
It's hard to detect left bias when you're on the left yourself.
And which news sources do you recommend then?
That's a problem. Because there is no neutral stance in the US, afaik.

You have Fox News on the right, and virtually everybody else on the left. There is no real "center", unfortunately.
 
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Poké Boss

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Are you saying that nationalism wasn't an important part of what caused WW2?
Nationalism is a good thing. It's about being proud of your cultural background.
Examples?
My favourite example is how the left always uses buzzwords like "racist" and "white supremacist" for ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM.


The left loves to frame people. They have an undeniable "If your don't completely agree with us, you are racist" mentality. They even go as far as calling black republicans "racist" :ROFLMAO:
 
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Volphied

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It's hard to detect left bias when you're on the left yourself.
Why do you assume I'm on "the left"? So please, tell me about WaPo's left bias.

That's a problem. Because there is no neutral stance in the US, afaik.

You have Fox News on the right, and virtually everybody else on the left. There is no real "center", unfortunately.
Really? Everyone except for one news company is left-wing?

Nationalism is a good thing. It's about being proud of your cultural background.

Racism is what caused WW2.
Nationalism is inherently divisive because it highlights perceived differences between people, emphasizing an individual's identification with their own nation. The idea is also potentially oppressive because it submerges individual identity within a national whole, and gives elites or political leaders potential opportunities to manipulate or control the masses. Much of the early opposition to nationalism was related to its geopolitical ideal of a separate state for every nation. The classic nationalist movements of the 19th century rejected the very existence of the multi-ethnic empires in Europe, paving the way to two catastrophic world wars that saw the creation of nation states through ethnic cleansing and displacement.

In his classic essay on the topic George Orwell distinguishes nationalism from patriotism, which he defines as devotion to a particular place. Nationalism, more abstractly, is "power-hunger tempered by self-deception."

A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist—that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating—but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him.

Nationalism, by its nature, excludes people. Raising one’s nation above others begins with defining what that nation is — and who belongs in it.

My favourite example is how the left always uses buzzwords like "racist" and "white supremacist" for ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM.

The left loves to frame people. They have an undeniable "If your don't completely agree with us, you are racist" mentality.
You didn't actually post any direct examples. I'd like to see them myself.
 

Weiss

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How are Democrats at fault here? Are they really just supposed to "go back to their countries"?

I remember something along the lines of “It’s time for white people to shut and listen to black and brown voices” said at one of the DNC meetings. Joe Biden is too old and white to run or another old white man etc. The Democrats seem to me to be the ones hyper focused on race and that’s just some of it.

Regarding the other statements you made:

It’s pointless to post statistics without a source maybe I missed it? I doubt just over half of Americans want it to be made easier for illegal immigrants to get into the country.

Regarding East-Asian history I think it’s irrelevant to how most of the people feel. They’d described themselves as what we would consider a nationalist.

Also if I may comment on the left bias even most of the traditional/social media admit to a left leaning bias. The one’s that don’t well it’s clear to see. I don’t remember any protests outside of the immigration buildings or attack on immigration officers during the last administration do you?

Again I’m not trying to pick sides here it’s not my fight I don’t care but I’m annoyed when people conflate things with other things that are not true. There is nothing wrong with being a nationalist it has nothing inherently to do with racism.
 
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