Huggable Electric Rodent
- Dec 13, 2017
- Reaction score
I am so late to these news. Amazing!
So I've seen a theory on Twitter
What do you guys think of the idea of Goh giving away Grookey to Tokio and Inteleon to Asahi?
That way if Goh will have a fresh start with Cinderace by his side?
I just realized that Ash wears red, blue, green, and yellow to match with all starters + Pikachu.Okay I will probably get pricked for this but I saw this picture on another website and immediately thought:
"Why do Ash and Chloe's designs actually compliment Grookey and Sobble's designs quite well respectively?"
I know it's almost entirely coincidence but it's still so uncanny
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This could be true but it doesn't really change how it felt watching DP for me; that Ash was farther away from winning than he'd been in the previous series because any absolute improvement would be offset by everyone else relatively getting better at a faster rate.Growing up in a more competitive region would make the trainers and coordinators there more talented as a result. In real life, Japanese VGC players are considered leagues above western ones because of how much harder they have to work to make the top cut. Mirroring that, a record low of 64 trainers were even able to complete the gym circuit and compete in the Sinnoh League.
Dawn's a unique case. I believe she genuinely had more latent ability than Ash are any of his other companions ever did, and that's because she was raised by a top coordinator. She grew up with a more realistic understanding of the effort it would take to realize her goal than Ash did, and also displayed a much better work ethic from day 1 than he did until AG.
Part of my issue here is that DP struck me as very deliberate in reversing Ash's AG progressions:That seems stubbornly dismissive to me. It's no secret that the writing can be inconsistent at times, however there is still a clear line of progression if you look out for it. The animation depicts Ash's Pokemon as stronger and more agile as the series goes on, and the quality of his commands, strategies, and even training regiment all clearly improve in AG, and then again in DP (barring the occasional hiccup which are really few and far between). The stronger you get, the higher level competition you can compete in. Win/loss ratio means nothing without that context.
Back in Hoenn Ash just barely lost by a hair to the guy who won the whole tournament and could have placed higher if the seeding had turned out differently, and maybe even won since the last battle was so close. And this while handicapping himself by not using reserves; DP made clear Ash never had a chance. Nobody was every going to win that league except Tobias, Pokémon's really awful version of Freeza.Tobias was a character created for the purpose of making a "believable" opponent for Ash to lose to after Paul. Their attempt at softening the blow was giving Ash the "honor" of being the first and only trainer to KO Tobias's Darkrai (and then Latios for good measure). Sure it was lopsided, but no one else performs as well as Ash. Ultimately, I think the intent is clear. If not for Tobias, Ash would have won the Sinnoh league.
Yeah, Regice was a very badly written battle, but it happened. I don't think they should have had Pikachu beating a Legendary if it was going to be completely ignored from that point on in favour of them not having a single major win in the next series.That was not a well-written KO, when you look into it. They probably meant for Volt Tackle to look like an epic finisher, but the problem with how they executed is exactly like you said: Regice had just finished healing, so instead of it feeling like a finishing blow, it felt like a OHKO out of nowhere. Especially when considering that Regice had earlier survived multiple super effective Iron Tails, but a single neutral Volt Tackle somehow was able to do what they couldn't.
I dunno if Tyson can be compared to Tobias. Sure, both won their respective leagues, but there's nothing particularly special about Tyson that would've precluded them from introducing a stronger character (with, like, a Growlithe in a tux) for Ash to face had he won.Back in Hoenn Ash just barely lost by a hair to the guy who won the whole tournament and could have placed higher if the seeding had turned out differently, and maybe even won since the last battle was so close. And this while handicapping himself by not using reserves; DP made clear Ash never had a chance. Nobody was every going to win that league except Tobias, Pokémon's really awful version of Freeza.
It was a signal; Ash was never allowed to win, something that remained true until coincidentally or not right after the league loss that lit up a firestorm in the fanbase.
That ties into my problem with him; Tyson was jus a bit stronger than Ash, while Tobias was an overkill plot device who mostly showed there was a much larger gulf between Ash and top trainers than there had been during AG. Again, it felt to me like Ash was actually farther away from his goal when DP ended than when AG did because top trainers got a bigger power buff than Ash did.I dunno if Tyson can be compared to Tobias. Sure, both won their respective leagues, but there's nothing particularly special about Tyson that would've precluded them from introducing a stronger character (with, like, a Growlithe in a tux) for Ash to face had he won.
Nothing exceptionally deep; it's just that both of them were massive power spikes over previous opponents without much explanation, but while Freeza was a beloved villain responsible for some of the series' best moments whose power continued to be brought up (even as late as Battle of Gods, Beerus was shocked mortals stronger than Freeza existed) Tobias was just a cheap plot device who only existed to stop Ash from winning and stoppedI'm also curious about the Frieza comparison, if only because I'm not sure where you're going with that.
A while back I was musing to myself on how AG is structurally most similar to the gen 1 anime (although of course much longer) due to both having a post-league arc where he wins in the end but then loses to Gary immediately after, and AG being the original series' direct sequel you can see why it had a similar design in that way.You know, this whole discussion makes me wonder if maybe the writers should've held off on Ash fighting any Legendary Pokemon until a much later saga. As awesome as it is for Charizard, Pikachu, and Sceptile to have accomplished such a feat, the arguable regression Ash suffered in DP and Tobias's entire existence being a huge plot contrivance all on its own do kinda make those victories bittersweet at best. It also damages Ash himself and reinforces the popular notion that he just got reset at the beginning of every saga (although only BW and arguably DP count as resets, since every other series has Ash being better than the last).
Ash winning against Brandon and Paul getting stomped by him would feel more believable if the former hadn't faced any Legendaries.
It's just as I posted above; AG Ash can defeat "roughly Elite" trainers like Frontier Brains with a good success rate while DP Ash loses every time he tries to fight one. His newbie companion even scored higher than him.Even if you feel Ash regressed at the beginning of DP (which is really just a Pikachu thing isn't it?), I'm a little perplexed you wouldn't feel he was at his peak by the end of the saga. The writers seemed to feel he wouldn't lose to any ordinary trainer after beating Paul. That's what spawned Tobias.
Just wanted to say I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. Ash getting completely destroyed by Flint (and later Tobias) never sat right with me and made it seem like he was way farther away from being an elite trainer than I thought in AG. I def thought after the Battle Frontier that Ash was maybe a few tiers below Elite 4 but could still put a pretty good fight against them but DP made it seem like he wasn't even in the same ballpark. I would have preferred if Tobias never existed and Ash beat Paul in the Finals and fought an Elite 4 member (or even Cynthia herself) and lose but still put in a good fight. Ash losing 6-2 or 6-3 in that regard would be a better progression IMOIt's just as I posted above; AG Ash can defeat "roughly Elite" trainers like Frontier Brains with a good success rate while DP Ash loses every time he tries to fight one. His newbie companion even scored higher than him.
I understand not everyone thinks this way but I am very outcome focused in cases like this where the writing isn't consistent enough, so if they wanted me to think Ash improved in DP he'd have needed accomplishments in it superior to those he had in earlier series'--and he didn't. Both OS and AG gave him better concrete achievements.
I think it was also because Tobias was, as I like to call, a status quo enforcer.Even if you feel Ash regressed at the beginning of DP (which is really just a Pikachu thing isn't it?), I'm a little perplexed you wouldn't feel he was at his peak by the end of the saga. The writers seemed to feel he wouldn't lose to any ordinary trainer after beating Paul. That's what spawned Tobias.