Anime & Manga General Discussion

[Articfoxgamez]

I had a thought, you know how some series of the anime have those little handful of post-series episodes where there is no Ash and its just the companions. What if that's how Project Mew will be treated once Goh actually gets into the thing fully and it starts. Sense based on the rules it wouldn't make sense for Ash to be there and I know people would riot over episodes of the main series being taken up by Goh's solo adventures (Plus the rest of the team i guess). And it beats it just happening off screen.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

So I've seen a theory on Twitter


What do you guys think of the idea of Goh giving away Grookey to Tokio and Inteleon to Asahi?

That way if Goh will have a fresh start with Cinderace by his side?

 

[Adelon]

So I've seen a theory on Twitter


What do you guys think of the idea of Goh giving away Grookey to Tokio and Inteleon to Asahi?

That way if Goh will have a fresh start with Cinderace by his side?

WHY!?

Oh, Giratina if this happens I'm going to release my event legendaries. All of them! JK (since I don't have ANY event legendaries at all) but seriously though that sounds like a bizarre theory. Its like a 10-year-old boy deciding to give away his pet cat and pet frog to his friends so he can find some more playmates for his pet rabbit.

 

[Weddingbells]

So I've seen a theory on Twitter


What do you guys think of the idea of Goh giving away Grookey to Tokio and Inteleon to Asahi?

That way if Goh will have a fresh start with Cinderace by his side?

I can't think of any good reason why he would release them.

 

[Daren]

I can't think of any good reason why he would release them.

Maybe they both suddenly decide they really like ping pong?

 

[Weddingbells]

Maybe they both suddenly decide they really like ping pong?

Grookey would probably be such a nuisance they immediately give it back after 5 minutes

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Okay I will probably get pricked for this but I saw this picture on another website and immediately thought:

"Why do Ash and Chloe's designs actually compliment Grookey and Sobble's designs quite well respectively?"

@Ghost Diplocaulus
I know it's almost entirely coincidence but it's still so uncanny

 

[Eitarou]

Because Chloe's school uniform is sailor-themed. Literally has anchors on it.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

Okay I will probably get pricked for this but I saw this picture on another website and immediately thought:

"Why do Ash and Chloe's designs actually compliment Grookey and Sobble's designs quite well respectively?"

@Ghost Diplocaulus
I know it's almost entirely coincidence but it's still so uncanny
View attachment 159616

I just realized that Ash wears red, blue, green, and yellow to match with all starters + Pikachu.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Some time ago, I realized my main reason for preferring the Pokémon anime over the Pokémon Adventures manga: the anime has serious moments amongst more lighthearted stuff, while Adventures has lighthearted moments amongst more serious stuff.

 

[Daren]

I've decided to reply here instead so the Master Eight topic doesn't veer off.

Growing up in a more competitive region would make the trainers and coordinators there more talented as a result. In real life, Japanese VGC players are considered leagues above western ones because of how much harder they have to work to make the top cut. Mirroring that, a record low of 64 trainers were even able to complete the gym circuit and compete in the Sinnoh League.

Dawn's a unique case. I believe she genuinely had more latent ability than Ash are any of his other companions ever did, and that's because she was raised by a top coordinator. She grew up with a more realistic understanding of the effort it would take to realize her goal than Ash did, and also displayed a much better work ethic from day 1 than he did until AG.

This could be true but it doesn't really change how it felt watching DP for me; that Ash was farther away from winning than he'd been in the previous series because any absolute improvement would be offset by everyone else relatively getting better at a faster rate.

DP gave him a higher tourney placement but placings in tournaments are very strongly influenced by seeding (as reinforced by them intentionally signalling Ash would have won if Tobias didn't exist); imagine if Paul had rolled snake eyes and got Tobias in round 1. His Sinnoh league quest would have ended in an instant anticlimax.

That seems stubbornly dismissive to me. It's no secret that the writing can be inconsistent at times, however there is still a clear line of progression if you look out for it. The animation depicts Ash's Pokemon as stronger and more agile as the series goes on, and the quality of his commands, strategies, and even training regiment all clearly improve in AG, and then again in DP (barring the occasional hiccup which are really few and far between). The stronger you get, the higher level competition you can compete in. Win/loss ratio means nothing without that context.

Part of my issue here is that DP struck me as very deliberate in reversing Ash's AG progressions:
*BF Ash could fight Legendarys on an even footing--DP ends with him needing 3 to 1 to take one down.
*AG Ash defeated the Frontier Brains and gave Agatha a very good match--DP Ash loses to the only Brain he fights and Flint crushes him.
*AG Ash could have won the league with reserves--DP Ash uses them and still gets annihilated.
It felt very deliberate, and as a result it killed all the goodwill AG had built up since it felt like they were backing away from it.

Tobias was a character created for the purpose of making a "believable" opponent for Ash to lose to after Paul. Their attempt at softening the blow was giving Ash the "honor" of being the first and only trainer to KO Tobias's Darkrai (and then Latios for good measure). Sure it was lopsided, but no one else performs as well as Ash. Ultimately, I think the intent is clear. If not for Tobias, Ash would have won the Sinnoh league.

Back in Hoenn Ash just barely lost by a hair to the guy who won the whole tournament and could have placed higher if the seeding had turned out differently, and maybe even won since the last battle was so close. And this while handicapping himself by not using reserves; DP made clear Ash never had a chance. Nobody was every going to win that league except Tobias, Pokémon's really awful version of Freeza.
It was a signal; Ash was never allowed to win, something that remained true until coincidentally or not right after the league loss that lit up a firestorm in the fanbase.

That was not a well-written KO, when you look into it. They probably meant for Volt Tackle to look like an epic finisher, but the problem with how they executed is exactly like you said: Regice had just finished healing, so instead of it feeling like a finishing blow, it felt like a OHKO out of nowhere. Especially when considering that Regice had earlier survived multiple super effective Iron Tails, but a single neutral Volt Tackle somehow was able to do what they couldn't.

Yeah, Regice was a very badly written battle, but it happened. I don't think they should have had Pikachu beating a Legendary if it was going to be completely ignored from that point on in favour of them not having a single major win in the next series.

 

[puddleths]

Back in Hoenn Ash just barely lost by a hair to the guy who won the whole tournament and could have placed higher if the seeding had turned out differently, and maybe even won since the last battle was so close. And this while handicapping himself by not using reserves; DP made clear Ash never had a chance. Nobody was every going to win that league except Tobias, Pokémon's really awful version of Freeza.
It was a signal; Ash was never allowed to win, something that remained true until coincidentally or not right after the league loss that lit up a firestorm in the fanbase.

I dunno if Tyson can be compared to Tobias. Sure, both won their respective leagues, but there's nothing particularly special about Tyson that would've precluded them from introducing a stronger character (with, like, a Growlithe in a tux) for Ash to face had he won.

Since you brought up how seeding could theoretically change things, I'd say the sequencing of Ash vs Tobias is what makes it as lopsided as it was. Sceptile and Pikachu essentially 1v1 Darkrai and Latios. The others get KO'd quickly since it was a full battle with a single episode dedicated to it.

I'm also curious about the Frieza comparison, if only because I'm not sure where you're going with that.

 

[Daren]

I dunno if Tyson can be compared to Tobias. Sure, both won their respective leagues, but there's nothing particularly special about Tyson that would've precluded them from introducing a stronger character (with, like, a Growlithe in a tux) for Ash to face had he won.

That ties into my problem with him; Tyson was jus a bit stronger than Ash, while Tobias was an overkill plot device who mostly showed there was a much larger gulf between Ash and top trainers than there had been during AG. Again, it felt to me like Ash was actually farther away from his goal when DP ended than when AG did because top trainers got a bigger power buff than Ash did.

I'm also curious about the Frieza comparison, if only because I'm not sure where you're going with that.

Nothing exceptionally deep; it's just that both of them were massive power spikes over previous opponents without much explanation, but while Freeza was a beloved villain responsible for some of the series' best moments whose power continued to be brought up (even as late as Battle of Gods, Beerus was shocked mortals stronger than Freeza existed) Tobias was just a cheap plot device who only existed to stop Ash from winning and stopped

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

You know, this whole discussion makes me wonder if maybe the writers should've held off on Ash fighting any Legendary Pokemon until a much later saga. As awesome as it is for Charizard, Pikachu, and Sceptile to have accomplished such a feat, the arguable regression Ash suffered in DP and Tobias's entire existence being a huge plot contrivance all on its own do kinda make those victories bittersweet at best. It also damages Ash himself and reinforces the popular notion that he just got reset at the beginning of every saga (although only BW and arguably DP count as resets, since every other series has Ash being better than the last).

Ash winning against Brandon and Paul getting stomped by him would feel more believable if the former hadn't faced any Legendaries.

 

[Daren]

You know, this whole discussion makes me wonder if maybe the writers should've held off on Ash fighting any Legendary Pokemon until a much later saga. As awesome as it is for Charizard, Pikachu, and Sceptile to have accomplished such a feat, the arguable regression Ash suffered in DP and Tobias's entire existence being a huge plot contrivance all on its own do kinda make those victories bittersweet at best. It also damages Ash himself and reinforces the popular notion that he just got reset at the beginning of every saga (although only BW and arguably DP count as resets, since every other series has Ash being better than the last).

Ash winning against Brandon and Paul getting stomped by him would feel more believable if the former hadn't faced any Legendaries.

A while back I was musing to myself on how AG is structurally most similar to the gen 1 anime (although of course much longer) due to both having a post-league arc where he wins in the end but then loses to Gary immediately after, and AG being the original series' direct sequel you can see why it had a similar design in that way.
During gen 1 they had good reason to figure Johto would be the end of it so the OI makes sense in that regard. The BF was odd though. You could argue they sort of needed Brandon to use the Regis but Noland's Articuno was rather left field.

Come to think of it:
Gen 1 and 3 had the same structure; Ash loses a league but wins a second non-tournament league or sorts after.
Gen 2 and 4 had the same structure; he defeats his major rival then loses right after, then ends.
Hmm.
5 and 6 both had an evil team plot after the league, but in 6 the league was still very near the end while 5 went on for a while after.

 

[puddleths]

Even if you feel Ash regressed at the beginning of DP (which is really just a Pikachu thing isn't it?), I'm a little perplexed you wouldn't feel he was at his peak by the end of the saga. The writers seemed to feel he wouldn't lose to any ordinary trainer after beating Paul. That's what spawned Tobias.

 

[Daren]

Even if you feel Ash regressed at the beginning of DP (which is really just a Pikachu thing isn't it?), I'm a little perplexed you wouldn't feel he was at his peak by the end of the saga. The writers seemed to feel he wouldn't lose to any ordinary trainer after beating Paul. That's what spawned Tobias.

It's just as I posted above; AG Ash can defeat "roughly Elite" trainers like Frontier Brains with a good success rate while DP Ash loses every time he tries to fight one. His newbie companion even scored higher than him.
I understand not everyone thinks this way but I am very outcome focused in cases like this where the writing isn't consistent enough, so if they wanted me to think Ash improved in DP he'd have needed accomplishments in it superior to those he had in earlier series'--and he didn't. Both OS and AG gave him better concrete achievements.

 

[Broseph08]

It's just as I posted above; AG Ash can defeat "roughly Elite" trainers like Frontier Brains with a good success rate while DP Ash loses every time he tries to fight one. His newbie companion even scored higher than him.
I understand not everyone thinks this way but I am very outcome focused in cases like this where the writing isn't consistent enough, so if they wanted me to think Ash improved in DP he'd have needed accomplishments in it superior to those he had in earlier series'--and he didn't. Both OS and AG gave him better concrete achievements.

Just wanted to say I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. Ash getting completely destroyed by Flint (and later Tobias) never sat right with me and made it seem like he was way farther away from being an elite trainer than I thought in AG. I def thought after the Battle Frontier that Ash was maybe a few tiers below Elite 4 but could still put a pretty good fight against them but DP made it seem like he wasn't even in the same ballpark. I would have preferred if Tobias never existed and Ash beat Paul in the Finals and fought an Elite 4 member (or even Cynthia herself) and lose but still put in a good fight. Ash losing 6-2 or 6-3 in that regard would be a better progression IMO

 

[Enzo]

Even if you feel Ash regressed at the beginning of DP (which is really just a Pikachu thing isn't it?), I'm a little perplexed you wouldn't feel he was at his peak by the end of the saga. The writers seemed to feel he wouldn't lose to any ordinary trainer after beating Paul. That's what spawned Tobias.

I think it was also because Tobias was, as I like to call, a status quo enforcer.

Ash had to beat Paul in the same breath he couldn't win the League, and the ultimate problem is because there was no other previously established character that was both A) a League participant and B) stronger than both Ash and Paul. Because here's the thing:

• All the pre-established characters who were stronger than both Ash and Paul (Cynthia, the E4, Brandon) were not in the League and, in fact, were leagues above the League (...hehe);
• And all the pre-established characters who were in the League (Barry, Conway, Nando) wouldn't believably be able to take Ash down, espcially after him beating Paul.

So the writers realized they were driving straight into a dead end street and had to resort to making Tobias on the spot, which is why he's a DEM, as he's an external element added in the last second so the writers wouldn't crash and burn.

At the end of the day, it was just the supreme above-all Status Quo playing it's part.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

The BF was odd though. You could argue they sort of needed Brandon to use the Regis but Noland's Articuno was rather left field.

I'm not sure if even Brandon using the Regis in battle was strictly necessary, seeing how literally all the Frontier Brains' rosters were altered anyway, sometimes even having completely different teams to what they actually use in the games (such as Spencer and Greta, the latter of whom was even straight up turned into a Fighting-type specialist in the anime despite not actually being one in the games. She does use Fighting-types, but literally only one per team, and in fact her most prominent Pokemon is ironically enough a Dark-type), and they even saw fit to remove Spencer's and Anabel's Legendaries altogether.

With how Brandon was made into an archeologist, I think a team mostly or entirely made up of Fossil Pokemon or even have some sort of "ancient" theme would've suited him. He could've still had the Regis, but just doesn't use them in battle because he's aware of how unfair that is for challengers and he's also only catching them for study and plans to release them once he's finished with his research (of course in this scenario, Reggie wouldn't have lost to him anywhere near as badly), but then when Paul challenges him he insists on fighting the Regis because Paul is just that adamant to show his "inner strength", with Brandon initially being reluctant because Legendaries, but when he sees how badly Paul needs to be knocked down a peg he accepts. The rest is history.

It's just as I posted above; AG Ash can defeat "roughly Elite" trainers like Frontier Brains with a good success rate while DP Ash loses every time he tries to fight one. His newbie companion even scored higher than him.
I understand not everyone thinks this way but I am very outcome focused in cases like this where the writing isn't consistent enough, so if they wanted me to think Ash improved in DP he'd have needed accomplishments in it superior to those he had in earlier series'--and he didn't. Both OS and AG gave him better concrete achievements.

To be fair to Dawn, she didn't have to deal with an action replay user steamrolling every Coordinator with his totally-not-hacked gods. Plus, while she may have technically scored higher than Ash in her goal, Ash did get a very crucial win over Dawn: he was able to defeat his primary rival whereas Dawn was not able to beat hers. In fact, pretty much all of Dawn's wins over Zoey are indirect in the sense that she's beat people who beat Zoey, but never actually got to beat Zoey herself.

As for the whole "was DP really a regression or not" discussion, I can perfectly see and understand both sides of the argument: like you said, Ash's accomplishments are on paper not as good as those in the Advanced saga, but one could argue they're more than made up for with how much the quality of the battles themselves shot up, the fact that DP is the series that had the most strategies used in battle and not just from the main characters either, a very well-written and compelling storyline for Infernape, and the fact that almost nobody ever gets oneshotted unless they're fighting a ridiculously powerful opponent (in fact, I'm pretty sure DP has the least amount of oneshots among sagas, but I could be wrong), which in turn makes battles much more action-packed and exciting to watch.

Oh, and DP's arguable regression being overlooked also probably has to do with BW coming immediately afterwards and doing an even worse regression that was also far more blatant. Plus, DP allowed Ash to actually end in a very high note (regardless of if it wasn't as high as Advanced) while BW infamously gave Ash possibly the most embarassing defeats he's ever suffered. In both the beginning and the end, funnily enough.