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Anime & Manga General Discussion

Sai

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The difference is that those two-on-two League matches were usually qualifying rounds for the actual tournament. Then it was three-on-three matches and then full battles for the later rounds of the League. There's no consistency like that with the PWC. Even in the Hyper Class, we still got a one-on-one battles. Going back and forth on what format they wanted to use for each match just made it feel like a mess.

I'm not saying that two-on-two battles are automatically bad. Ash vs. Korrina was the first PWC match that I actually enjoyed and I thought that the first two Bea matches were pretty solid too. Ash vs. Iris wasn't bad, but I do think it was a bit too rushed and probably would have been more enjoyable as a three-on-three match instead. As much as I hate the one shot character matches, I did like the battles Sirfetch'd had prior to its evolution too. My main problem is that winning a one-on-one match and arguably two-on-two matches as well just doesn't come off as particularly impressive. It's really hard to make defeating one or two Pokemon feel like a huge accomplishment. And considering the the bulk of the PWC was built on these kind of matches, that's a problem. Defeating three Pokemon or half of a full team is generally more effective. It gives both side a chance to potentially show off their skills, give their Pokemon more chances to shine and can make the victory feel more impressive/earned.

Obviously, none of that is guaranteed either. There are plenty of bad battles throughout the anime's run even if they are three-on-three. I just think that kind of format is more ideal and would have helped to make Ash climbing the ranks to the Master Class feel more impressive, as well as making the PWC feel like living up to the hype fans created for it.
I think 2 on 2 was fine for all the early matches. Many Gym battles and some of the early league battles (like the first rounds in the Hoenn league if I remember right) were only 2 on 2. The semi-finals in Alola were 2 on 2 as well. Overall the number of pokemon used isn't really an issue, for example Candice's Gym in DP was a 4 on 4 and a lot of it was kinda rushed so it didn't matter. 3 on 3 or more doesn't make it feel any more or less important.
 

Alola

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The Volkner battle getting praised as the best of JN has never sat right with me. The last PWC match I enjoyed was Bea 3, but that has its own issues (including Lucario taking too much damage).
This is the first I'm hearing of this. However, I would imagine the praise primarily regards Volkner for several reasons:
  • The animation was really nice. A good mix of fluid (ex. Pikachu and Electivire Iron Tail jousting) and static (ex. Lucario's Aura Sphere charge animation) shots, that made for an engaging battle with a good pace. Their Pokémon fought on the ground and in the air, making full use of the battlefield.
  • Volkner ended up combining the most strategies out of any trainer Ash has faced (including Terrain Effects, status ailments, combination moves, super-effective moves, debuting a new move, and Ability usage along with applying precise switching pressure).
  • He didn't use a single gimmick, having pushed Ash to rely on something that even Tapu Koko, one of the strongest Electric-type Pokémon in the entire anime, couldn't outdamage, with just his Pokémon's normal unaugmented strengths.
  • The music choices throughout the episode were amazing and introduced several new, popular Volume 2 tracks (which is finally out, btw) that reinforced the animation and storytelling of the battle.
  • And then aside from Volkner, this was Lucario's first major battle outside of Bea. People like Lucario.
Also Gengar scored an attack on Luxray forcing Volkner to recall it, so Luxray wasn't just defeated by Lucario. After that Lucario fainted too with a double KO so it's not like Lucario didn't go down as well.
Gengar actually connected two - Psychic and Night Shade. So, for me at least, taking a point-blank Aura Sphere afterwards seemed reasonable enough to warrant a KO on Luxray.
 

Sai

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I forgot Gengar got two attacks on Luxray, so that addresses the previous complaint that Lucario took out Luxray in one hit. It's also why I didn't mind Gengar didn't get a KO itself, because Gengar did very well in this battle and served its purpose. (And we didn't know at the time the ep aired, but then Gengar would go on to star in the next 3 battles with Marnie, Raihan and Paul's battle, so Gengar went on to have a wonderful winning streak afterward)
 

Hidden Mew

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I think 2 on 2 was fine for all the early matches. Many Gym battles and some of the early league battles (like the first rounds in the Hoenn league if I remember right) were only 2 on 2. The semi-finals in Alola were 2 on 2 as well. Overall the number of pokemon used isn't really an issue, for example Candice's Gym in DP was a 4 on 4 and a lot of it was kinda rushed so it didn't matter. 3 on 3 or more doesn't make it feel any more or less important.
Considering that I've often said that the Alola League was a League set on easy mode, I don't think that's a good defense for two-on-two matches. Not to mention I think you missed my points completely. A battle can be good regardless of the format. I pointed out examples of two-on-two battles that I thought were good and there are plenty of three-on-three battles that are awful. I haven't seen Leon vs. Alain yet, but being three-on-three didn't help to make that match out from the sound of things. Most of the BW Gym battles were pretty bad too.

My point isn't that three-on-three matches are super important or that it's impossible to get good battles with fewer Pokemon. Like I said, I just think that three-on-three can be an ideal way to give both trainers a chance to show of their skills, give their Pokemon their time to shine and make the victory more impressive. It's not a guarantee by any means, but I think it gives the writers more time to potentially make good battles. Besides all that, for a tournament that is supposed to be deciding the number one ranked trainer in the world, PWC matches really should be more than just battling one or two Pokemon.
 

puddleths

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This is the first I'm hearing of this. However, I would imagine the praise primarily regards Volkner for several reasons:
  • The animation was really nice. A good mix of fluid (ex. Pikachu and Electivire Iron Tail jousting) and static (ex. Lucario's Aura Sphere charge animation) shots, that made for an engaging battle with a good pace. Their Pokémon fought on the ground and in the air, making full use of the battlefield.
  • Volkner ended up combining the most strategies out of any trainer Ash has faced (including Terrain Effects, status ailments, combination moves, super-effective moves, debuting a new move, and Ability usage along with applying precise switching pressure).
  • He didn't use a single gimmick, having pushed Ash to rely on something that even Tapu Koko, one of the strongest Electric-type Pokémon in the entire anime, couldn't outdamage, with just his Pokémon's normal unaugmented strengths.
  • The music choices throughout the episode were amazing and introduced several new, popular Volume 2 tracks (which is finally out, btw) that reinforced the animation and storytelling of the battle.
  • And then aside from Volkner, this was Lucario's first major battle outside of Bea. People like Lucario.
My comment in the review thread of the episode hits on a lot of these points for why I didn't like it. The only thing to add was I remember not liking the music selection much.

I think Bea 3 (namely episode 86) has a better effort from Iwane and superior BGM. The problem is you kind of have to ignore episode 85 (not that 86 is perfect).
 

Alola

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My comment in the review thread of the episode hits on a lot of these points for why I didn't like it. The only thing to add was I remember not liking the music selection much.

I think Bea 3 (namely episode 86) has a better effort from Iwane and superior BGM. The problem is you kind of have to ignore episode 85 (not that 86 is perfect).
Interestingly, the Bea battle featured most of the music from the Volkner battle. So, it's a bit jarring to read that you didn't like the latter when it also played in the former. Unless you're saying the inclusion of the Galar Gym Battle OST and the Galar Trainer 2~TV Anime Version was just that significant in musical choice.

I also find it amusing you liked that battle better when the power of friendship, one of your reasons for dismissing the Volkner fight, was much more rampant in Bea's battle; Lucario should not have been able to take a quarter of the attacks it did, including completely no-selling a G-Max Chi Strike and firing off a Steel Beam of all things after all the damage it took over the two episodes.
 

puddleths

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Interestingly, the Bea battle featured most of the music from the Volkner battle. So, it's a bit jarring to read that you didn't like the latter when it also played in the former. Unless you're saying the inclusion of the Galar Gym Battle OST and the Galar Trainer 2~TV Anime Version was just that significant in musical choice.

I also find it amusing you liked that battle better when the power of friendship, one of your reasons for dismissing the Volkner fight, was much more rampant in Bea's battle; Lucario should not have been able to take a quarter of the attacks it did, including completely no-selling a G-Max Chi Strike and firing off a Steel Beam of all things after all the damage it took over the two episodes.
I liked it better at the time. I watched it again, recently, and I agree with you. It's not much better. Thus my comment Visquez is the peak.

I'll stand by my opinion 86 is a better produced episode than 77.
 
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Sai

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My comment in the review thread of the episode hits on a lot of these points for why I didn't like it. The only thing to add was I remember not liking the music selection much.

I think Bea 3 (namely episode 86) has a better effort from Iwane and superior BGM. The problem is you kind of have to ignore episode 85 (not that 86 is perfect).
Looking over your original post, he does have a number of attacks on Luxray now that was pointed out between both Gengar and Lucario before going down. I admit I don't remember how Rotom lost (I haven't seen the ep since it aired), and since this was the first time Ash used the Z-move since Alola I didn't mind it, since otherwise it would have just been Pikachu beating Electrivire with Iron Tail which would have been underwhelming since none of its other moves would have taken it down. Besides that Volkner being strategic but Ash managing to counter him (he literally forces Volkner to recall Luxray), is what made it a good back and forth.

Usually most other battles the opponent just keeps their pokemon out till they faint no matter what.
 

Imtnt

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I forgot Gengar got two attacks on Luxray, so that addresses the previous complaint that Lucario took out Luxray in one hit. It's also why I didn't mind Gengar didn't get a KO itself, because Gengar did very well in this battle and served its purpose. (And we didn't know at the time the ep aired, but then Gengar would go on to star in the next 3 battles with Marnie, Raihan and Paul's battle, so Gengar went on to have a wonderful winning streak afterward)
EXACT, plus Gengar showed us he is capable to make use of alot of moves to covarage Ash's team. Ice Punch, Psy, Night Shade, Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Dazzlin Glim and now Will-o-Wisp. Making use also MAX moves of 4 types.

So Gengar can use Fire / Ice / Poison / Ghost / Fairy / Psychic

Perfect Coverage against most of the Aces of the M8. And we know Ash's gengar takes advantage of his speed and Ghost type Bilities in a way Plot armor can be used. And I dont need to overestimate Gmax gimock or the Sandstorm swalliwing and eating a a pokemon.

Because it is likely we get full epiaodes of Ash's rounds we prob' get to see how usefull Gengar is. Maybe even winning for him Round 1 or Round 2. And it got the progress, screen time and winning streak..
 

Sai

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Ash/Iris happening early was good for a few reasons:

1. It frees Ash up to battle a different champion in the Master Class

2. It shows Iris was a recent/new champion, she wasn't in the previous Master Class from the last tournament (the one Raihan, Lance and Flint were in, Leon vs Lance in episode 13 was the finale of that).

3. It showed like Ash she had to work her way up beating trainers to get there.

4. Haxorus looks a lot stronger in the preview screens against Cynthia, so it seems like they had a battle when both their teams were still developing before both got stronger.

I actually would have liked Iris to have a similar role as Bea and appear a few more times, but I'm glad they got their battle out of the way early.
 

ManUtd22

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I hate win the referee said only the challenger can substitute pokemon.

Specialy that Ash much experience and stronger than the gym leaders
 

ManUtd22

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Ash/Iris happening early was good for a few reasons:

1. It frees Ash up to battle a different champion in the Master Class

2. It shows Iris was a recent/new champion, she wasn't in the previous Master Class from the last tournament (the one Raihan, Lance and Flint were in, Leon vs Lance in episode 13 was the finale of that).

3. It showed like Ash she had to work her way up beating trainers to get there.

4. Haxorus looks a lot stronger in the preview screens against Cynthia, so it seems like they had a battle when both their teams were still developing before both got stronger.

I actually would have liked Iris to have a similar role as Bea and appear a few more times, but I'm glad they got their battle out of the way early.
I don't want to laugh but i have to say hahaha
 

Gengarzilla

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EXACT, plus Gengar showed us he is capable to make use of alot of moves to covarage Ash's team. Ice Punch, Psy, Night Shade, Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Dazzlin Glim and now Will-o-Wisp. Making use also MAX moves of 4 types.

So Gengar can use Fire / Ice / Poison / Ghost / Fairy / Psychic

Perfect Coverage against most of the Aces of the M8. And we know Ash's gengar takes advantage of his speed and Ghost type Bilities in a way Plot armor can be used. And I dont need to overestimate Gmax gimock or the Sandstorm swalliwing and eating a a pokemon.

Because it is likely we get full epiaodes of Ash's rounds we prob' get to see how usefull Gengar is. Maybe even winning for him Round 1 or Round 2. And it got the progress, screen time and winning streak..
It's been a quiet and unspoken rule ever since mid-AG that Pokémon in the anime are restricted to a four move set like the games, with eagle eyed viewers like myself noticing that an older move suddenly stops getting after a new move is learned. Notice how Gengar has never used Psychic or Night Shade ever since it got Dazzling Gleam and Sludge Bomb. I'd put Gengar's set as Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Dazzling Gleam, and the new Will-O-Wisp over Ice Punch.
The days where a Pokémon pulled six or eight moves to any battle whenever they pleased are very long gone.
 

CharizardFan7

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It's been a quiet and unspoken rule ever since mid-AG that Pokémon in the anime are restricted to a four move set like the games, with eagle eyed viewers like myself noticing that an older move suddenly stops getting after a new move is learned. Notice how Gengar has never used Psychic or Night Shade ever since it got Dazzling Gleam and Sludge Bomb. I'd put Gengar's set as Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Dazzling Gleam, and the new Will-O-Wisp over Ice Punch.
The days where a Pokémon pulled six or eight moves to any battle whenever they pleased are very long gone.
You're most likely right, however they could pull a Leon's Charizard with Gengar and switch up Will-O-Wisp back for Ice Punch, or something like that. However, I'd say it's more likely that your prediction is the correct one. Which is a shame, too, as Gengar really didn't need Will-O-Wisp. Its moveset before was very good, and I really liked it.
 

Chilon

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Will-O-Wisp is a game strategy but its realy nothing important to a series where Pokemon can use (for example hisuian Sneasel )..Ice beam on the ground and freeze the bottom and then slides over it gets speedy and destroys the Oponent with my favourite strategy: the anime strategy that needs no boring Effect like burn. I mean paralysis is ok and makes take battle better (for example between normal Sneasel and Hisuian Sneasel) but it is a anime! Its not in a
148 x 90 x 32 mm box from a gameboy. Please dont understand me wrong. Games are nice but it isnt a game.
 

CharizardFan7

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Will-O-Wisp is a game strategy but its realy nothing important to a series where Pokemon can use (for example hisuian Sneasel )..Ice beam on the ground and freeze the bottom and then slides over it gets speedy and destroys the Oponent with my favourite strategy: the anime strategy that needs no boring Effect like burn. I mean paralysis is ok and makes take battle better (for example between normal Sneasel and Hisuian Sneasel) but it is a anime! Its not in a
148 x 90 x 32 mm box from a gameboy. Please dont understand me wrong. Games are nice but it isnt a game.
Journeys has probably taken more concepts from the games than any other series before it (which isn't always a good thing :cautious:,) for example Gengar's Will-O-Wisp was the first time the move has ever caused a burn in the anime. Before this, it was just a damage dealing Fire type move. I'll definitely say this much about Journeys: creative liberties are far less apparent than they were in previous series, which honestly makes Journeys feel kind of dead and soulless sometimes. It's like they rip stuff directly from the games sometimes.
 

Chilon

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I mean: the fight between Aegislash and Pikachu in the Kalos battles was so nice. And it is And it's like you stabbed this fight in the back. With a dagger made of game mechanics frozen in lead.
 

CharizardFan7

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I mean: the fight between Aegislash and Pikachu in the Kalos battles was so nice. And it is And it's like you stabbed this fight in the back. With a dagger made of game mechanics frozen in lead.
The people behind the XY series were much, much better at choreographing/writing battles and battle episodes. (Not to mention the animation was almost always top-notch, too.) The battles in Journeys just feel mediocre by comparison.

Good on you to bring up the Aegislash and Pikachu battle too, BTW. That fight exemplified the creative liberties of the anime when it comes to writing battles, not to mention perfectly showcasing Ash's improvisational nature in battle.
 
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Chilon

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Ok, by the way: is Aegislash in Journeys a good Pokemon for Leon. I would find it pretty half-hearted if he came and was absolutely stolen by XY, so I wouldn't want him because something like that can happen.
 
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