Anime & Manga General Discussion

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

he's gonna have to beat them first try or he'll be eliminated from the tournament

No he won't. We already have visual evidence that losing a PWC match doesn't automatically eliminate you from the competition entirely, it just drops your ranking. Ash has already lost PWC matches on three separate occasions and the worst that happened was that he got kicked back down from Super Class to Normal Class, so if Ash gets beaten all he has to do is fight his way back up.

What I meant is this series has a habit of making him win even when the odds are stacked against him. Like with Korrina and Iris his Dragonite was much less experienced and took a lot of hits from its opponents but it won anyway. With Volkner he was being outplayed but was able to pull through regardless. Yeah he lost against Bea but bounced back within a few episodes and drew with her (without much onscreen training).

It just feels like he has plot armour at some points and particularly now the writers are making him more overpowered. I just don't see him losing against Leon at this rate, especially if he's gonna beat other master class trainers.

Yeah, I think someone of the anime staff did say that Journeys As would be "more invincible", but that clearly doesn't mean he won't lose the occasional battle, as Bea demonstrates, so him losing to Leon in the end is still very much within the realm of possibility. Yes, one could argue the Alain fiasco might discourage the writers from hyping up Leon only for Ash to not beat him, but Leon does feel different because his invincibility is at least well established while Alain pretty much only got that by essentially pure accident, so I don't think it'll be that infuriating for Ash to lose to Leon.

 

[Hey You Pikachu!]

No he won't. We already have visual evidence that losing a PWC match doesn't automatically eliminate you from the competition entirely, it just drops your ranking. Ash has already lost PWC matches on three separate occasions and the worst that happened was that he got kicked back down from Super Class to Normal Class, so if Ash gets beaten all he has to do is fight his way back up.

No but the World Monarch is decided by a pokemon league style tournament with the Masters 8.

 

[FluffleFi]

Honestly, even if people don't like it, I can see them having Ash go up against Gyms again at some point. Despite how his current team is being handled they'll have to be Oak'd at the end of the series so he can start new once more. Unless they have him catch fully evolved Pokemon again, or do something similar to the PWC, they'll probably have to scale things down. Can't exactly have fresh and inexperienced Pokemon going up against Champion-tier trainers right off the start.

 

[Daren]

I'm really hoping Leon isn't another Alain because it would be a pretty awful way to adapt him since being surpassed is the entire point of his character.

You could argue that's true to some extent with previous champions in the games, but they weren't set up as Ash's main goal early on, and with Leon it's baked into the game more strongly; people aren't just aiming at a nebulous Pokémon league where the Champion pops up beforehand in ways mostly unrelated to their position then randomly turns out to be the final boss; Leon is set up as the last obstacle from the opening cutscene. Your main rival (and arguably the actual protagonist of the story) is specifically trying to defeat him.
Most importantly he's a foil to every main game protagonist by being someone who won the tournament as a ten year old (although I believe some of the game protagonists were a bit older canonically) then loses to the new hero. It's a very explicit theme of passing the torch.

If he's supposed to remain undefeated it shouldn't have been Leon instead of a new character, and having him defeated by some other random kid who doesn't show up until what now looks like it would have to be halfway through the series would be almost as bad.

I am really curious what the endgame here is going to be; if Leon were just Galar's champion there would be no issue whatsoever with Ash beating him. Promoting him to world champion makes it so much stranger.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think he'll win against Leon, especially after beating the likes of Korrina, Iris and Volkner on his first try. Despite being 2v2s and 3v3s these are all incredibly skilled opponents to say the least, hell Iris is legit a champion now. Not to mention him using gmax, z-moves and now megas altogether. They really are going all-out here and I can see him winning under these circumstances.

I don't know if beating them really means that much. He's already defeated Korrina and Volkner before. They are still strong Gym Leaders, but they weren't overpowered. Iris is a Champion and so defeating her would look impressive on paper, but I'm still not sure how impressive that really is given how I feel about Iris getting that title off-screen. Plus, I don't think that the show made a big deal about Ash defeating a Champion. Having all three main gimmicks, for lack of a better term, does seem to give Ash a bit of power, even though I think he's barely used Gigatmax, but I don't think that necessarily means that he'll be able to win. They could just use all of those moves and forms as a way to really make their battle more flashy and visually impressive.

Also I think they learnt their lesson with Alain - in that they probably shouldn't hype up him defeating someone (he's already lost to) but then not have him win in the end. If it happens it Leon it'll be even worse imo since this has been teased from the start of the series altogether.

That reminds me of something that I've been wondering for awhile. Would a lot of people be really upset with Ash losing to Leon? I'm sure that people would be disappointed about it, but would it cause the same kind of backlash that losing to Alain did or really any of the other infamous League defeats? I'm not sure about that. They have established Leon as Ash's goal for the series pretty early on, but aside from just wanting Ash to win, I'm just not sure if a lot of fans are that invested in Ash vs. Leon. Just wanting Ash to win isn't a bad thing, but there's usually something more meaning for Ash to battle against rivals or other opponents besides that. There have been buildup for their eventual battle, but if each episode didn't remind the audience of Ash and Goh's goals, I think that the buildup would be drastically reduced.

With Alain, a huge part of the backlash was due to how much attention Ash Greninja got during the last stretch of the series, how they implied that fully mastered Ash Greninja could have defeated both Alain and Diantha and that it still ended up losing seemingly for no reason other than to keep the status quo. So far, I don't think that Leon has the same issues that Alain did in that regard. Even Leon's strength is fully established from the start instead of the writers making him ridiculously overpowered all of a sudden like they did with Alain. I don't know why Ash would still lose to Leon off the top of my head right now, but I still find the phrasing of his goal a bit telling. They emphasize that his goal is to battle Leon, not to defeat him. I don't know if that's just how the dub phrases it or that is accurate to how it is in the Japanese version, but I think that might be to give the writers some wiggle room in case they don't want Ash to defeat Leon.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Can someone please explain to me why so many people say Origins Red was such a well developed character? Like, I understand people liking Origins because of it being close to the games or whatever; and how competent Red supposedly is, but developed? He's so static and barely changes as a character throughout...I swear, I've seen CotD's better developed than Red. Even if you argue he somehow got "stronger" over the course of the story: that struggle was never shown. Origins wasted far too much valuable time on expositions and awkwardly placed monologues instead of actually developing Red as a character. I understand that it was meant as nostalgia pandering to the fans, but why couldn't they do both? Instead, we get this weird cross between supposed prodigy and stereotypical anime protagonist with no flaws to speak of.

Don't even get me started on Giovanni.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Can someone please explain to me why so many people say Origins Red was such a well developed character? Like, I understand people liking Origins because of it being close to the games or whatever; and how competent Red supposedly is, but developed? He's so static and barely changes as a character throughout...I swear, I've seen CotD's better developed than Red. Even if you argue he somehow got "stronger" over the course of the story: that struggle was never shown. Origins wasted far too much valuable time on expositions and awkwardly placed monologues instead of actually developing Red as a character. I understand that it was meant as nostalgia pandering to the fans, but why couldn't they do both? Instead, we get this weird cross between supposed prodigy and stereotypical anime protagonist with no flaws to speak of.

Don't even get me started on Giovanni.

I agree with pretty much everything said here, but I think this might be better for the Controversial Opinions thread.

 

[R1ke]

I don't know if beating them really means that much. He's already defeated Korrina and Volkner before. They are still strong Gym Leaders, but they weren't overpowered. Iris is a Champion and so defeating her would look impressive on paper, but I'm still not sure how impressive that really is given how I feel about Iris getting that title off-screen. Plus, I don't think that the show made a big deal about Ash defeating a Champion. Having all three main gimmicks, for lack of a better term, does seem to give Ash a bit of power, even though I think he's barely used Gigatmax, but I don't think that necessarily means that he'll be able to win. They could just use all of those moves and forms as a way to really make their battle more flashy and visually impressive.

^ Basically what I said earlier, it’s more about how he’s being treated so far. He’s won a lot, under circumstances that don’t always make sense. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t see them pumping the brakes anytime soon, at least in the last match.

That reminds me of something that I've been wondering for awhile. Would a lot of people be really upset with Ash losing to Leon? I'm sure that people would be disappointed about it, but would it cause the same kind of backlash that losing to Alain did or really any of the other infamous League defeats? I'm not sure about that. They have established Leon as Ash's goal for the series pretty early on, but aside from just wanting Ash to win, I'm just not sure if a lot of fans are that invested in Ash vs. Leon. Just wanting Ash to win isn't a bad thing, but there's usually something more meaning for Ash to battle against rivals or other opponents besides that. There have been buildup for their eventual battle, but if each episode didn't remind the audience of Ash and Goh's goals, I think that the buildup would be drastically reduced.


With Alain, a huge part of the backlash was due to how much attention Ash Greninja got during the last stretch of the series, how they implied that fully mastered Ash Greninja could have defeated both Alain and Diantha and that it still ended up losing seemingly for no reason other than to keep the status quo. So far, I don't think that Leon has the same issues that Alain did in that regard. Even Leon's strength is fully established from the start instead of the writers making him ridiculously overpowered all of a sudden like they did with Alain. I don't know why Ash would still lose to Leon off the top of my head right now, but I still find the phrasing of his goal a bit telling. They emphasize that his goal is to battle Leon, not to defeat him. I don't know if that's just how the dub phrases it or that is accurate to how it is in the Japanese version, but I think that might be to give the writers some wiggle room in case they don't want Ash to defeat Leon.

Personally I would be annoyed but I can’t speak for other people. Maybe it won’t be to the same extent as Alain, but him losing would feel like cop out. I’ve grown tired of seeing Ash hyped up to win but unfairly keep losing for no concrete reason. After Kalos I had no expectations. But Alola in a way revived it, because they finally let him have the proper payoff they established with him, particularly with Kukui. Although Journeys hasn’t been as rewarding, if he loses again, I’ll find it harder to remain invested in his character moving forward. Because why should I care about his quest if they aren’t bothered to end it properly you know? Stories are all about setup and payoff.

I know that people aren’t that invested in this match here and some are hoping that he’ll lose. But I still think it’s better for them to properly conclude this storyline they set up - regardless of how it’s been handled. This series has already pushed so many boundaries with Ash getting a full team already, using previous powerups, goh catching legendaries, ash battling champions, etc so I think it’s believable for him to win here.

 

[PikachuSmasher]

https://twitter.com/anipoke_PR/status/1438699310909067275

Ooohhhh. Somethings up today. I have low expectations of this, but still if Anipoke_PR is posting about this, then it'll have something to do with the ending song

 

[Emmy]

So, as we are in the limbo between general seasonal animes, I have been binging a recent show called "GeGeGe no Kitarō" to tide me over and it got me thinking about the current iteration of the Pokémon anime.

The basic formula of a Kitarō episode is that the eponymous hero gets a letter from a human about how they're being harassed by a yōkai or some sort and Kitarō investigates in order to resolve the problem and keep the balance between humans and yōkai. It's a very simple COTD show with little overarching plot and very loose continuity, perfect for children as if you miss a week or two as you can largely watch it out of order and it won't matter for most episodes. Simple but very effective as GeGeGe no Kitarō has endured for generations since the sixties.

Anyways, while watching I couldn't help but be reminded of the early days of "Pocket Monsters 2019" whereby Ash and Gou were "research buddies" who would be sent to investigate Pokémon each episode and it would resolve by the end. That has subsided somewhat with both the PWC and Project Mew now but it often persists in the standalone episodes some refer to as filler. Yet I can't help but wonder if the writing staff - whether they were thinking of Kitarō specifically or not (hell, they could have been thinking of something like Yōkai Watch for all I know) - were attempting to chase after that particular style of narrative but I feel like it was a bad idea as that style clashes terribly with the nature of Pokémon, especially when you try to implement it alongside something like the PWC that is antithetical to the COTD style and has lead to the weak usage of the PWC where Ash is constantly fighting nobodies in short battles that only take five minutes and are forgotten by the audience afterwards. Ash's climb through the ranks of the PWC should have been exciting where you couldn't miss and episode because you wanted to see if Ash would make it to the next stage or not, with (actually) reoccurring rivals that threatened to knock him out at every turn. All in the desperate bid to reach the top and keep his promise to face off against Leon before someone else could take that chance from him.

Just something I've been mulling over.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Personally I would be annoyed but I can’t speak for other people. Maybe it won’t be to the same extent as Alain, but him losing would feel like cop out. I’ve grown tired of seeing Ash hyped up to win but unfairly keep losing for no concrete reason. After Kalos I had no expectations. But Alola in a way revived it, because they finally let him have the proper payoff they established with him, particularly with Kukui. Although Journeys hasn’t been as rewarding, if he loses again, I’ll find it harder to remain invested in his character moving forward. Because why should I care about his quest if they aren’t bothered to end it properly you know? Stories are all about setup and payoff.

I know that people aren’t that invested in this match here and some are hoping that he’ll lose. But I still think it’s better for them to properly conclude this storyline they set up - regardless of how it’s been handled. This series has already pushed so many boundaries with Ash getting a full team already, using previous powerups, goh catching legendaries, ash battling champions, etc so I think it’s believable for him to win here.

While I can understand wanting proper payoff, the anime has always emphasized that it's the journey, not the destination, that is important. That might have been mainly because they kept having the main leads lose in their respective goals, but it still fits with the tone of the series. I think that's one reason why the idea of Ash losing to Leon doesn't really bother me. I might be just used to Ash losing still even after the Alola League, but most of Ash's other quests are still engaging even if they don't have proper payoff, so Ash not defeating Leon wouldn't feel much different from that regard.

Ash defeating Leon is still believable and it wouldn't be impossible for that to happen. I'm just not convinced that it's a guarantee at this point or that Ash losing create such huge backlash.

 

[PikachuSmasher]

While I can understand wanting proper payoff, the anime has always emphasized that it's the journey, not the destination, that is important. That might have been mainly because they kept having the main leads lose in their respective goals, but it still fits with the tone of the series. I think that's one reason why the idea of Ash losing to Leon doesn't really bother me. I might be just used to Ash losing still even after the Alola League, but most of Ash's other quests are still engaging even if they don't have proper payoff, so Ash not defeating Leon wouldn't feel much different from that regard.

Ash defeating Leon is still believable and it wouldn't be impossible for that to happen. I'm just not convinced that it's a guarantee at this point or that Ash losing create such huge backlash.

Ash losing will create backlash. He has a great time, a mega evo, Z move, Gmax form. He can't lose, if he does it defeats the point of Iris,Korrina,Volkner and more returning for PWC

 

[RetroPokeFan]

Ash losing will create backlash. He has a great time, a mega evo, Z move, Gmax form. He can't lose, if he does it defeats the point of Iris,Korrina,Volkner and more returning for PWC

I doubt it'll mean much for the staff if Ash lost. If anything they'd probably just shrug their heads and move on.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ash losing will create backlash. He has a great time, a mega evo, Z move, Gmax form. He can't lose, if he does it defeats the point of Iris,Korrina,Volkner and more returning for PWC

I don't think it would defeat the point of returning characters showing up for the PWC, especially when fans wanted the PWC to feature old characters since it was announced. That seems largely unrelated to Leon. If there is any backlash, then I doubt that it would be on the level of what happened with Alain. I'm just not convinced that people are invested in Ash vs. Leon like they have with some of his previous quests, especially when the reception towards the PWC seems mixed at best here and there's not much to Ash's connection to Leon either. He just wants to battle Leon because he's the top ranked trainer. It isn't the worst motivation out there or the worst one Ash has had for a goal, but I'm just not really sure that a lot of fans are so heavily invested in the outcome for their match either.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yeah, I personally don't think I'd be angry at Ash losing to Leon compared to Alain. Especially so if Lucario does turn out to be the regional ace after all: I don't think anyone would fault a Fighting/Steel-type for getting wrecked by a Fire/Flying-type.

Unless of course Charizard knocks Lucario out with something dumb like Metal Claw, but I doubt that'll happen.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Ash losing to Leon would be like Dawn losing to Zoey: a terrible, TERRIBLE mistake.

 

[Lightning Flame Blast]

Unless of course Charizard knocks Lucario out with something dumb like Metal Claw, but I doubt that'll happen.

“Now finish it off, TACKLE ATTACK!”

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ash losing to Leon would be like Dawn losing to Zoey: a terrible, TERRIBLE mistake.

I never really had a problem with Dawn losing to Zoey. They didn't really have a typical rivalry and while Dawn obviously wanted to win, they put more emphasis on how they wanted to meet each other in the finals again, not just on how Dawn wanted to defeat her. Plus, Zoey deserved to be a Top Coordinator given her skills. As good as Dawn was and deserved to be in the finals, Zoey was always one or two moves ahead of her. Ash and Leon don't have a similar dynamic of course, but the show emphasizing that Ash's goal is to battle Leon does remind me of how they handled Dawn's goal to battle against Zoey again, so that might be another reason why Ash losing to him doesn't really bother me.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Oh, and it turns out we ARE getting episode on the 8th and 15th (just don't know the titles yet)

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Dawn's loss against Zoey wasn't that big of a deal to me, compared to say Ash's losses against Tobias or Alain. Those losses pissed me off more than any loss I've ever seen.