Anime & Manga General Discussion

[ii kanji]

The whole "It was like whoosh! And then like bam!" makes me think this is someone who did not travel to seven regions and interact (read, communicate) with a plethora of people in a variety of situations. OG Ash was a better speaker, my goodness.

OMG YES THANK YOU.

You know, I didn't mind this when it was happening only from time to time, but I feel like it's a once per episode occurrence now and it really bugs me. It feels like an affectation - Satoshi is not stupid or inarticulate, and everyone knows it, but it feels like he just has to talk like he's stupid nowadays in order to seem less threatening/be more relatable to those who don't know his history.

 

[Yuukii]

OMG YES THANK YOU.

You know, I didn't mind this when it was happening only from time to time, but I feel like it's a once per episode occurrence now and it really bugs me. It feels like an affectation - Satoshi is not stupid or inarticulate, and everyone knows it, but it feels like he just has to talk like he's stupid nowadays in order to seem less threatening/be more relatable to those who don't know his history.

I was thinking about this a while back. There's probably more, but the 4 instances of this that I can remember are in XY012, JN006, JN022, and JN062. All of those episodes besides JN022 are written by Shoji Yonemura, who happens to be the series constructor of Journeys. The person in charge of writing the series seeming to not understand Ash isn't a good sign to me.

 

[Enzo]

I was thinking about this a while back. There's probably more, but the 4 instances of this that I can remember are in XY009, JN006, JN022, and JN062. All of those episodes besides JN022 are written by Shoji Yonemura, who happens to be the series constructor of Journeys. The person in charge of writing the series seeming to not understand Ash isn't a good sign to me.

It's like they wanna write him as the super ultra hyper kid that cannot form an coherent phrase 99% of the time, and it's pretty annoying and has happened too many times to not be noticied tbh.

And like, I don't really think it's necessarily about not understanding the character, since Ash is an excitable boy ever since OS, but it just feels like they decided to just crank it up to 12 in those episodes, and it's definitely noticiable.

 

[skiittylalis]

I was thinking about this a while back. There's probably more, but the 4 instances of this that I can remember are in XY009, JN006, JN022, and JN062. All of those episodes besides JN022 are written by Shoji Yonemura, who happens to be the series constructor of Journeys. The person in charge of writing the series seeming to not understand Ash isn't a good sign to me.

to add onto the topic didnt the writers pretty much admit to not knowing how to handle ash in this series?? i remember someone posting a translated interview with a writer (either in this thread or the thoughts on journeys one, i cant remember exactly maybe i'll dig around to find it) where the writers arent really sure how to make ash grow after the alola league so their solution is to....... make him act like a rookie who acts likes hes seeing a pokemon for the first time and think his only character traits are eating food and being a cheerleader instead of a champion. makes total sense!! it feels like the bw "soft reboot" but somehow MUCH worse considering what hes both achieved in xy-sm and what hes currenty NOT achieving in jn

and yeah, ash is 10 at the end of the day and 10 year olds are allowed to be silly and make mistakes, but how this aspect of him is being overblown and feels like his defining character trait in some episodes is...... really ooc imo (and im glad im not the only person who has a problem with this)

 

[swiftgallade46]

I feel like Ash is always going to be absent-minded and forgetful, etc. Those are just his character traits. No amount of arcs or development are going to ‘cure’ him of those things. I agree there are moments when it goes overboard, though.

I’ll also say...he was seemingly a lot more competent in XY (even though he still had his silly moments). Then he kind of regressed in Sun and Moon and has pretty much remained consistent with that in JN. He acts more like how he did in BW and prior. Things are wackier now than in BW, but that, too, began in Sun and Moon and also applies to the show as a whole rather than just Ash.

 

[Daren]

I'm reluctant to make solid guesses about which particular traits of Ash's will or won't be around with how he tends to get rewritten. I wouldn't be surprised if the "XY variant" or similar returns at some point, especially with how popular he was during that era in a lot of places.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I'm reluctant to make solid guesses about which particular traits of Ash's will or won't be around with how he tends to get rewritten. I wouldn't be surprised if the "XY variant" or similar returns at some point, especially with how popular he was during that era in a lot of places.

Oh...I think I would dislike that just as much. Sinnoh Ash, maybe. Kalos? Eh...not really. Honestly, I feel as if BW onward is where Ash's character was at his worst.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I think the only aspect of Ash's character that was ever phased out was that in the OS, he was far more arrogant and even had something of a mean streak that allowed him to bicker with Misty on almost equal terms. Nowadays Ash has basically zero malicious bones in his body and is significantly more humble. I can easily imagine that an OS-era Ash would have bragged his victory at the Alola League to the high heavens, which current Ash has never done.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

What do all of these Pokemon have in common?

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

They're all round, they're all starters, they're all in their basic stages, and depending on who you ask they're all annoying (in my personal case, only two really bother me: I like Piplup well enough and am completely indifferent to Chespin)

...and none are Fire-types.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I’ll also say...he was seemingly a lot more competent in XY (even though he still had his silly moments). Then he kind of regressed in Sun and Moon and has pretty much remained consistent with that in JN. He acts more like how he did in BW and prior. Things are wackier now than in BW, but that, too, began in Sun and Moon and also applies to the show as a whole rather than just Ash.

I don’t think his SM self should be called a regression. He still remains his battle competent self but doesn’t battle so we just don’t get to see that part most often. In SM Ash is thrown into situations he has never faced before. I’m pretty sure Ash had never dealt with washing machines, for reference. As my own experience as a teen who was suddenly thrown into doing these basic tasks for myself in college in another town, there’s a surprising amount of people who are competent with academics and such, but not at all at stuff related to home, which Ash was now dealing with.

And also, there were no pressures on Ash in Alola. He was more laid back because he didn’t have a goal which required constant effort. So his character is understandable for me.
In JN I feel that the core beats of Ash's character, while they were preserved in XY and SM, have been mostly relegated offscreen. But the main point is I don’t think regression is an appropriate term for Ash's competency in XY> SM.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I don’t think his SM self should be called a regression. He still remains his battle competent self but doesn’t battle so we just don’t get to see that part most often. In SM Ash is thrown into situations he has never faced before. I’m pretty sure Ash had never dealt with washing machines, for reference. As my own experience as a teen who was suddenly thrown into doing these basic tasks for myself in college in another town, there’s a surprising amount of people who are competent with academics and such, but not at all at stuff related to home, which Ash was now dealing with.

And also, there were no pressures on Ash in Alola. He was more laid back because he didn’t have a goal which required constant effort. So his character is understandable for me.
In JN I feel that the core beats of Ash's character, while they were preserved in XY and SM, have been mostly relegated offscreen. But the main point is I don’t think regression is an appropriate term for Ash's competency in XY> SM.

I was referring to his character; not his battling prowess. He acts pretty much the same in JN as he had in SM, imo.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I was referring to his character; not his battling prowess. He acts pretty much the same in JN as he had in SM, imo.

I mean, "competency" usually refers to battle ability, so most people would assume that at a glance...
But if you’re referring to his character, then I’d argue that he got an upgrade from XY to SM, not a regression. Ash is significantly more expressive in SM, it comes with being a victim of slapstick comedy but that’s the nature of the series. Many here have already written on how XY Ash was too stoic, impacting his character negatively.
The core beats of Ash's character are made by his love of Pokémon, and his interactions with his own Pokémon. His character is a product of his excitable self playing off with his Pokémon's personalities, and his entire team interacting to create a cohesive unit with Ash and his Pokémon.XY has this, but then his expression emotionally has been comparatively less. Sun and Moon preserves his character and makes him much more expressive.

I definitely wouldn’t put JN on the same level as SM. In terms of Ash's character, I’d put it slightly above XY but less than SM, since what Ash gains in Character expression, he loses on the aspect of his dynamics with his non-Pikachu Pokémon. XY compensated for it by showing Ash working towards a goal, being actually motivated. But JN relegates most of those aspects, be it team dynamics, or working towards goals, offscreen.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I mean, "competency" usually refers to battle ability, so most people would assume that at a glance...
But if you’re referring to his character, then I’d argue that he got an upgrade from XY to SM, not a regression. Ash is significantly more expressive in SM, it comes with being a victim of slapstick comedy but that’s the nature of the series. Many here have already written on how XY Ash was too stoic, impacting his character negatively.
The core beats of Ash's character are made by his love of Pokémon, and his interactions with his own Pokémon. His character is a product of his excitable self playing off with his Pokémon's personalities, and his entire team interacting to create a cohesive unit with Ash and his Pokémon.XY has this, but then his expression emotionally has been comparatively less. Sun and Moon preserves his character and makes him much more expressive.

I definitely wouldn’t put JN on the same level as SM. In terms of Ash's character, I’d put it slightly above XY but less than SM, since what Ash gains in Character expression, he loses on the aspect of his dynamics with his non-Pikachu Pokémon. XY compensated for it by showing Ash working towards a goal, being actually motivated. But JN relegates most of those aspects, be it team dynamics, or working towards goals, offscreen.

Competency doesn’t have to relate to battles. In this case, I was referring to his overall demeanor and level of seriousness in and out of tense situations.

You’re also misinterpreting what I meant by regression. Regression isn’t always a bad thing; it just meant he went back to how he was at a previous time. He acts in SM more like how he did in BW rather than XY. Personally, I actually did prefer him in XY but that’s not the commentary I was making.

Also, I’m not referring to his interactions with his Pokémon or the PWC in JN; I’m talking specifically about his character traits. Like being generally carefree, unorthodox, absent-minded, and optimistic.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Also, I’m not referring to his interactions with his Pokémon or the PWC in JN; I’m talking specifically about his character traits. Like being generally carefree, unorthodox, absent-minded, and optimistic.

He wasn't that during Kalos? I dunno about anyone else, but the image of Kalos Ash stuck in my head is him whining at the airport about Viola not being there at her gym and him doing the stupidest stuff yet getting praised to hell and back for looking "cool" a moment later-he's done this on multiple occasions before, after, and during Kalos-the only thing that was supposedly so special about XY Ash was that literally every single cast member looked up to him.

 

[swiftgallade46]

He wasn't that during Kalos? I dunno about anyone else, but the image of Kalos Ash stuck in my head is him whining at the airport about Viola not being there at her gym and him doing the stupidest stuff yet getting praised to hell and back for looking "cool" a moment later-he's done this on multiple occasions before, after, and during Kalos-the only thing that was supposedly so special about XY Ash was that literally every single cast member looked up to him.

It was less pronounced in Kalos, overall. He had moments, like I stated, but he was more focused and had more serious moments than usual. His interactions with other characters was different, too.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Competency doesn’t have to relate to battles. In this case, I was referring to his overall demeanor and level of seriousness in and out of tense situations.

That’s quite a different interpretation of the word from what I've seen, since seriousness isn’t usually related to competency in literal definitions. Anyways, XY might be high on that definition of competency but I don't even know if that should be compared since seriousness isn’t one of Ash's core traits. And I still don’t think there’s a huge change in Ash's seriousness.

Sun and Moon as well as JN Ash can be perfectly serious when the situations demand then, it’s just that XY had more situations where Ash could show his serious side, and Sun/Moon was pretty devoid of these. He does show seriousness where I counts, like during the Necrozma arc. Similarly for JN during the Darkest Day.

These are more of a product of situations where Ash is put in imo.

On a side note, words like competency and regression have specific meanings (soecially when used in tandem), so them being used in different contexts from their conventional meanings can be quite confusing to some readers. If we use conventional definitions someone can be serious and highly incompetent at the same time, so showing them as synonymous is bound to confuse some of us, specially the non native speakers.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

That’s quite a different interpretation of the word from what I've seen, since seriousness isn’t usually related to competency in literal definitions. Anyways, XY might be high on that definition of competency but Indont even know if that should be compared since seriousness isn’t one of Ash's core traits. And I still don’t think there’s a huge change in Ash's seriousness.

Honestly, I felt as if since Ash didn't really have anyone to challenge him as a person, it was hard to gauge whether or not he's "mature", especially more so than other series. I bring up Sinnoh Ash a lot, but this is mainly because he was in a CONSTANT state of being challenged, by himself, his rival, his ideals, his friends, etc. He was looked up to and admired at times by other characters as well, but it wasn't 24/7 like XY Ash. His relationship with his pokemon is amazingly shown here and Ash isn't unnecessarily serious. Like you said, seriousness is not one of Ash's defining traits.

 

[swiftgallade46]

That’s quite a different interpretation of the word from what I've seen, since seriousness isn’t usually related to competency in literal definitions. Anyways, XY might be high on that definition of competency but Indont even know if that should be compared since seriousness isn’t one of Ash's core traits. And I still don’t think there’s a huge change in Ash's seriousness.

Sun and Moon as well as JN Ash can be perfectly serious when the situations demand then, it’s just that XY had more situations where Ash could show his serious side, and Sun/Moon was pretty devoid of these. He does show seriousness where I counts, like during the Necrozma arc. Similarly for JN during the Darkest Day.

These are more of a product of situations where Ash is put in imo.

On a side note, words like competency and regression have specific meanings (soecially when used in tandem), so them being used in different contexts from their conventional meanings can be quite confusing to some readers. If we use conventional definitions someone can be serious and highly incompetent at the same time, so showing them as synonymous is bound to confuse some of us, specially the non native speakers.

I think he tended to respond to these situations more seriously in XY. No, seriousness is not a core trait but that’s what made him different in XY as opposed to the preceding and following series. He was put in those situations more, and he chose to respond to situations in a less whimsical manner overall when it could have gone either way.

Also, there is really no need to focus so much on semantics. I explained what I meant by both terms.

 

[JinksChow]

to add onto the topic didnt the writers pretty much admit to not knowing how to handle ash in this series?? i remember someone posting a translated interview with a writer (either in this thread or the thoughts on journeys one, i cant remember exactly maybe i'll dig around to find it) where the writers arent really sure how to make ash grow after the alola league so their solution is to....... make him act like a rookie who acts likes hes seeing a pokemon for the first time and think his only character traits are eating food and being a cheerleader instead of a champion. makes total sense!! it feels like the bw "soft reboot" but somehow MUCH worse considering what hes both achieved in xy-sm and what hes currenty NOT achieving in jn

and yeah, ash is 10 at the end of the day and 10 year olds are allowed to be silly and make mistakes, but how this aspect of him is being overblown and feels like his defining character trait in some episodes is...... really ooc imo (and im glad im not the only person who has a problem with this)

This is starting to feel like Deja Vu

Sorry for the thread bump, but I found an excerpt of an interview with Shoji Yonemura which may shed some light on the way Ash was developed in Pokemon JN.

Apparently in the above excerpt, Yonemura states that characters which have already been developed are harder to write for, which is why he tends to "weaken" them in order to develop them again.

(I cannot read Japanese outside of Kanji, so I would really appreciate it if a member who understands Japanese can give us a better translation of the above excerpt)

Here is the translation from dephender.

"As far as Satoshi's battles as a Pokémon Trainer are concerned, Pocket Monsters XY gave me the impression that he had matured a lot. This made it difficult to create new dramatic story arcs for him, but since Satoshi is such a straightforward person, he has this aspect to him where he sometimes forgets things he's already learned from experience. When this happens, we have Go comment on how "THIS is what Satoshi is ACTUALLY like" or "THIS is what Satoshi always says", etc. This makes Satoshi a boy who still has a lot of room to grow. He's someone who always continues to strive towards his goal, and you could even say that if he didn't do this, he wouldn't BE Satoshi. Our job as writers is to find ways to make this happen"

(Please note that I've been a pretty open critic of Shoji Yonemura, so I may have a biased opinion against him)