Anime & Manga General Discussion

[Lightning Flame Blast]

So Joe Merrick (Serebii creator) made this comment about Ash and Goh on Twitter earlier. It mainly pertains to Goh. I don't know what to think and I don't know if I should be sharing this, but here it is:

I doubt it’s the same group of people.

 

[Daren]

I understand what he's getting at, but even if it's the same people twenty years is a long time for people to change their mind on the issue; Kanto and Johto tended to give the Pokémon less in the way of character arc and growth than the later series, for instance, so someone could think during the original series that it would be better for Ash to have a larger rotating team but after the better focus we saw on the teams in AG or DP decide that they prefer that way.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't think that he's implying that it's the same group of people. I thought it was more about how at least on paper, the complaints on Goh look jarring. I do remember the complaint on Ash not catching enough Pokemon. I'm not sure how common it was exactly, but it wasn't something exclusive to OS or even AG. I would hear about it until BW when he started to rotate and even then, people were happy that he was catching more than the usual five or six primarily because they thought he wasn't capturing enough Pokemon.

It kind of reminds me of the backlash when Pokemon Unite was announced last year. I know that the people who were upset that we didn't get D/P remakes or Let's Go Johto games aren't the same people who were upset over Sword/Shield or don't like that main series titles are a yearly event, but that didn't make the backlash any less jarring for me. Admittedly, this might not be the most fitting comparison when the gap between those backlashes was much shorter than fans complaining about Ash not catching enough Pokemon, but it does just remind me of how confusing fan complaints can be.

 

[thomaswiencek]

Wait, did you think that Goh's Arctozolt left the main anime? Because I don't see it at Cerise Laboratory anymore, so what happened to it?

 

[Alola]

I understand what he's getting at, but even if it's the same people twenty years is a long time for people to change their mind on the issue; Kanto and Johto tended to give the Pokémon less in the way of character arc and growth than the later series, for instance, so someone could think during the original series that it would be better for Ash to have a larger rotating team but after the better focus we saw on the teams in AG or DP decide that they prefer that way.

I thought about it for a second and I think this is where I stand on the matter as of now. Ash catching a lot of Pokémon in a given saga is nice, but BW showed us that the cost of that was a lack of characterization and screen time for everyone involved (unless your name is Pikachu). And as you said, the series has gotten better at fleshing out Ash's party Journeys aside. Thus, I prefer a more static party than catching things for the sake of catching things.

 

[swiftgallade46]

The general message that there’s just no pleasing some people is absolutely true. This particular example isn’t the best, though.

 

[puddleths]

People that complain about Ash not catching enough Pokemon stopped watching the anime in 1999.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

but BW showed us that the cost of that was a lack of characterization and screen time for everyone involved (unless your name is Pikachu

That was a rather odd jab at Pikachu, especially considering how the issue being talked about is characterization and screentime.

 

[Alola]

That was a rather odd jab at Pikachu, especially considering how the issue being talked about is characterization and screentime.

One source of characterization and screentime in this series come from Gym Battles (and battling in general). In Unova in particular, Pikachu participated in a majority of them (5), and was the star of three; in the series where Ash had his largest active party yet. Pikachu centralizes a lot, though not all, of the notable fights in a given region; he currently has the most on-screen PWC fights under his belt, where Gengar and Sirfecth'd would have notably loved that screentime instead. The thing is we will always have Pikachu, but not his peers. So, yes - when Pikachu is on display in these meaningful fights, it is an opportunity cost for screentime and development of another party member(s) that could have benefited from that instead. I am not sure what you find odd about that.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

One source of characterization and screentime in this series come from Gym Battles (and battling in general). In Unova in particular, Pikachu participated in a majority of them (5), and was the star of three; in the series where Ash had his largest active party yet. Pikachu centralizes a lot, though not all, of the notable fights in a given region; he currently has the most on-screen PWC fights under his belt, where Gengar and Sirfecth'd would have notably loved that screentime instead. The thing is we will always have Pikachu, but not his peers. So, yes - when Pikachu is on display in these meaningful fights, it is an opportunity cost for screentime and development of another party member(s) that could have benefited from that instead. I am not sure what you find odd about that.

I thought we were talking about characterization and screentime in general, though? Battling, yes, that's fair. But screentime is just unavoidable to the point where it's unreasonable to suggest otherwise(how could Pikachu not get screentime in an episode?), and characterization has nothing to do with battling. Sure, battling shows off characters and their personalities sometimes, but for the most part, it doesn't.

I personally agree that Pikachu should not battle this series, but there's a difference between characterization and battling.

 

[Alola]

characterization has nothing to do with battling. Sure, battling shows off characters and their personalities sometimes, but for the most part, it doesn't.

I personally agree that Pikachu should not battle this series, but there's a difference between characterization and battling.

I disagree. This series has showed many times how Pokémon develop through battle or as a result of it; one blatant example was Infernape's entire character arc of proving its strength and self-worth to Paul, which climaxed beautifully in that final battle with Electivire. Its grit, struggle, determination, and heart that it spent the entire saga showcasing & developing wouldn't have been rewarded as well as it was if not for the battle. It even overcame and controlled Blaze through battle, which was a milestone during its time as a party member.

Another example I really like was Oshawott and Aqua Jet. Here we have a move, that it learned through training for a Gym Battle no less, that revealed a very important characteristic about Oshawott - it had a fear of opening its eyes under water. Not only is this a real-life scenario for many, but it was a dilemma and instrumental part to Oshawott's character for a good while of early BW; even Trip got involved in the affair. Then, they even gave Ash & Oshawott an episode dedicated to overcoming this obstacle for the both of them, which resulted in Oshawott growing & conquering its fear, perfecting a move, deepening its bond with Ash, and adding more versatility to its fighting style. That is characterization and it was a result of, and featured along the way, battling. You're right there is a difference between characterization and battling, but characterization can come from battling.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Wait, did you think that Goh's Arctozolt left the main anime? Because I don't see it at Cerise Laboratory anymore, so what happened to it?

This makes me sad because Arctozolt is my favorite Galar fossil

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

So Joe Merrick (Serebii creator) made this comment about Ash and Goh on Twitter earlier. It mainly pertains to Goh. I don't know what to think and I don't know if I should be sharing this, but here it is:

This seems more like a trollish jab to me. Doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of this post format since it completely disregards nuance and paints the fanbase as a hivemind. The complete lack of nuance and consideration for the situation makes it look like a us vs them situation and it becomes difficult for me to treat these arguments seriously.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I actually liked the fact that Ash caught so many Pokémon in Unova, and I still find it fascinating in a way. That doesn't excuse the small amount of screentime and focus many of them got, though, especially Palpitoad. I get that it was done to emulate season 1, but it didn't really work back then, either. Admittedly, Ash never really used his reserves at Oak's until the Pokémon League, while in Unova, he did use all of his reserves at various points, so I can give BW at least that much.

 

[Enzo]

This seems more like a trollish jab to me. Doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of this post format since it completely disregards nuance and paints the fanbase as a hivemind. The complete lack of nuance and consideration for the situation makes it look like a us vs them situation and it becomes difficult for me to treat these arguments seriously.

What I'm gonna say can be interpreted as off-topic but I have to say:

Aaaand this is one of the reasons why social media such as Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, etc are the way they are now:

The format of the plataform by default doesn't really works for discussion. You basically have to summarize all of your points in this tiny spaces and you cannot explain/expand on points as much. Besides the fact that in these sites, outliking is the way to win an discussion 99% of the time.

This is actually even why I joined this forum in the first place. I can talk and have discussions about Pokémon as much as I want and not be trapped by a small, 240 characters limit.

 

[Hidden Mew]

This seems more like a trollish jab to me. Doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of this post format since it completely disregards nuance and paints the fanbase as a hivemind. The complete lack of nuance and consideration for the situation makes it look like a us vs them situation and it becomes difficult for me to treat these arguments seriously.

I can understand not liking how it generalizes the issues people have with Goh's goal, but I think that it might be a bit of an assumption to say that it's painting the fanbase as a hivemind. Considering the twenty year gap, I doubt that he's saying that these are the same people making the comparison. On paper, seeing the complaint do a complete one-eighty does look weird. I think that's one reason why the comment doesn't bother me since I've had similar experiences with loud/vocal opinions clashing with each other like that. I know that they aren't from the same group of people or that any fanbase is a hivemind, but it still can be jarring.

As for the lack of nuance, I think that's mainly due to the format of Twitter more than anything else. It's a site that doesn't really lend itself to healthy and effective discussions for a number of reasons. Personally speaking, the amount of nuance you can have over explaining the problems with Goh seems questionable at this point. That isn't to say that people don't have good reasons to not like him, not like how he's written or anything like that. But as many as well thought out posts I've seen about Goh at this point, I've seen just as many, if not more so, character bashing complaints. There is more to why some people don't like Goh catching Pokemon than this one Tweet expresses and I can understand not liking that generalization, but I have seen my fair share of Goh complaints that aren't really too different from this comment at least tone wise.

 

[Enzo]

So Joe Merrick (Serebii creator) made this comment about Ash and Goh on Twitter earlier. It mainly pertains to Goh. I don't know what to think and I don't know if I should be sharing this, but here it is:

I can sorta of see where he's coming from, but the way that he speaks of the community as this sorta of ''singular minded group'' where nuances are not an actual thing rubs me the wrong way. These two are very different things that were said and are debated to this day for different reasons and, by a lot of time, different groups of people.

And even if they were the same group, I mean, who would've possibly imagined that in 20 years people would think of something differently and shift their focus onto a more recent discussion?

 

[RileyXY1]

I can sorta of see where he's coming from, but the way that he speaks of the community as this sorta of ''singular minded group'' where nuances are not an actual thing rubs me the wrong way. These two are very different things that were said and are debated to this day for different reasons and, by a lot of time, different groups of people.

And even if they were the same group, I mean, who would've possibly imagined that in 20 years people would think of something differently and shift their focus onto a more recent discussion?

Especially considering that back then there were only 251 Pokemon, the adult fanbase wasn't as big as it is now, and the Pokemon community changes and evolves over time.

 

[Sobble Bubble-O-Seven]

AshandSerena on Twitter is currently recovering from injuries sustained in a car accident. Please keep them in your thoughts and prayers. I hope they make a speedy and safe recovery.

 

[Okido]

That's horrible. Really glad to hear that they're okay. My heart goes out to them, I hope they can take as much time as they need to recover safely.