Anime & Manga General Discussion

[Eitarou]

Really had to stretch for #9, huh?

 

[Turbo]

You know, I do wonder how some of the themed episode lists they do for the official site are made; they're doing one for "Ash's most iconic battles" but it's laser focused on the leagues and league adjacent battles, but I honestly think "Electric Shock Showdown" is way more iconic than, say, his loss to Tyson (in fact they included every single league loss but skipped the Battle Frontier entirely).

As for the battle frontier part I think it might have to do with they haven't posted battle frontier season on the Pokemon tv app yet. That or they wanted his Hoenn Pokemon team iconic battle to he included as Brandon was his Kanto team, and the other frontier brains was either a mix of all his Pokemon or just Kanto

And for which is more iconic, I think it just depends how you look at it as AG is kinda like the forgotten step child in the anime so far as even BW is remembered for the bad stuff
In the AG series before battle frontier the league was the big moment for Ash at that point and Tyson was his final battle so maybe it didn't have the same rivalry as main rivals like Gary or Paul but I would say it was on similar level as the Harrison battle at that point. Making it iconic at least for it's time

Ash vs Surge is probably the standout battle of Kanto (only competition is Blaine) and OS is OS so I can see the argument of it being more iconic but I think if we're not going to go off the stakes like league vs gym battle then sure just then feels like you can make arguments for some of he other ones on the liste
Even for Hoenn I would say Brawly, Norman, or whoever could be the Hoenn iconic battle if you don't want to include Ash vs Tyson

 

[Sai]

AG is a weird spot where it's both simultaneously too old now for the younger fanbase to be familiar with and it also came after the original fad era ended around mid-Johto so it never had mainstream status like the OS did. That and as mentioned, it doesn't necessarily have anything too bad that people complain about much (besides the Magma/Aqua finale, or people who didn't like Max), to keep it in constant conversations like the people who rag on BW's flaws or whatever. At this point it's really only remembered for those of us older fans who grew up with it when it was new. I think within the next 10 years DP will wind up being the same as it gets older and older.

 

[Turbo]

AG is a weird spot where it's both simultaneously too old now for the younger fanbase to be familiar with and it also came after the original fad era ended around mid-Johto so it never had mainstream status like the OS did. That and as mentioned, it doesn't necessarily have anything too bad that people complain about much (besides the Magma/Aqua finale, or people who didn't like Max), to keep it in constant conversations like the people who rag on BW's flaws or whatever. At this point it's really only remembered for those of us older fans who grew up with it when it was new. I think within the next 10 years DP will wind up being the same as it gets older and older.

Yeah I mostly agree AG just was in an unfortunate position because of a lot of outside circumstances as you mentioned

I don't think DP will be forgotten at least not the same way AG has, DP even now can be argued as the best series and factors like Dawn Paul & Cynthia have left more of a mark on the series than even characters like Gary let alone any AG characters not named May

I do think however we're getting close to the time where DP is going to get grouped in the same box with OS and AG, with it being so old that it if anyone wants to go back to previous series DP might be too far as now people are calling it “Classic Pokemon anime” as OS-DP flow well into each other and there's a break between DP and BW and BW flows well into XY etc

I can now see BW being a new starting point for those wanting to watch the series without watching all 1000+ episodes (it's like the One piece and Naruto problem)
Plus I'm seeing people nostalgic for BW more recently, even if it's mainly because of Iris in JN

 

[puddleths]

A compilation video of the top 10 most emotional goodbyes

Dustox, Chimecho, and Cacnea's releases deserve spots. What are Serena, Greninja, and Floette even doing on here?

 

[Daren]

I don't think DP will be forgotten at least not the same way AG has, DP even now can be argued as the best series and factors like Dawn Paul & Cynthia have left more of a mark on the series than even characters like Gary let alone any AG characters not named May

I'm not too sure; DP wasn't nearly as well liked while it was airing and I won't be surprised if just like AG it's supporters continue to just "age out" and get outnumbered by people who came in later and don't really have special fond memories of it.
But in the very long term I sort of think everything from AG to XY is in an unfortunate situation where Ash's resets and frozen progression makes them feel like two decades of filler.
Edit: I mean it's honestly funny how interchangeable the outline of those series' are. All of them were Gym Cycle--Ash helps stop an evil team--Ash beats a rival--Ash loses the league and starts back from square one. AG is a bit different thanks to the BF and the order of events moves around a bit like Team Flare being after the league.

 

[Adelon]

I'm not too sure; DP wasn't nearly as well liked while it was airing and I won't be surprised if just like AG it's supporters continue to just "out" and get outnumbered by people who came in later and don't really have special fond memories of it.
But in the very long term I sort of think everything from AG to XY is in an unfortunate situation where Ash's resets and frozen progression makes them feel like two decades of filler.

Best Wishes wasn't liked at all when it was airing, but now people seem to have strangely fond memories of it.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Best Wishes wasn't liked at all when it was airing, but now people seem to have strangely fond memories of it.

I think it's because people who were young kids back when it first started airing (and thus for them BW would've been the first experience with the Pokemon anime) are now old enough to interact with the rest of the fanbase on a large scale, and for them BW has at the very least nostalgic value. Gen 5 did come out roughly 12 years ago, after all, meaning that viewers who would've been around 5-7 years old back in the day would be in their late teens or young adulthood now. It also helps that none of these viewers would have any preconcieved notions about Ash's past adventures, so all of the stuff that bothered long-time viewers (namely Ash's regression in skill) obviously wouldn't have been issues for them.

 

[Sai]

That's pretty much already happened, all the younger fans on twitter/discord, etc. don't really care much for the anime prior to DP, a lot of them really like BW, and they debate between XY/SM which they like more. BW is 12 years old now, anyone who is 20 or younger pretty much grew up with it in their childhood.

Dustox, Chimecho, and Cacnea's releases deserve spots. What are Serena, Greninja, and Floette even doing on here?

They were all good goodbyes. The weakest goodbyes were the BW trio and the Hoenn groups farewell.

 

[Turbo]

I'm not too sure; DP wasn't nearly as well liked while it was airing and I won't be surprised if just like AG it's supporters continue to just "age out" and get outnumbered by people who came in later and don't really have special fond memories of it.
But in the very long term I sort of think everything from AG to XY is in an unfortunate situation where Ash's resets and frozen progression makes them feel like two decades of filler.
Edit: I mean it's honestly funny how interchangeable the outline of those series' are. All of them were Gym Cycle--Ash helps stop an evil team--Ash beats a rival--Ash loses the league and starts back from square one. AG is a bit different thanks to the BF and the order of events moves around a bit like Team Flare being after the league.

I think it depends what you're comparing it to, As I think all series after OS go down in viewership from aging out to just general popularity not as big as that initial boom. And I think every series has this weird “I don't like A B & C” early on and as the series goes they start liking A & B and maybe C really wasn't good but enough time has passed
Like with sun and moon the art style was a major complaint earlier on then as time went on people either just accepted it or really like it

I forget what the DP dislikes were about, I just remember some didn't like Paul as much and they had that bad stretch between gym battles where it felt like a lot of filler,
But now Paul is like a fan favorite and I think even if just for nostalgia people like some of the stuff that happened in that stretch

I think the real test will be this next gen as unless it's like journeys and keeps bringing back characters, it'll be probably be a long time before we see DP characters (and most non journeys characters), as they got their resurgence with the remakes this gen so when that passes it'll be interesting to see how people look back on DP

 

[Sai]

Yeah, it definitely seems like DP characters like Paul, Cynthia, Infernape, Dawn/Piplup definitely wound up being series favorites decade after the series ended. We also see some of that now with people and the XY cast and Greninja's evergreen popularity, Serena, Bonnie/Clemont and even Alan. SM also has a huge fanbase now too and people have warmed up to Iris a lot after Journey's.

Back in the day it really seemed like only Misty/Brock had this evergreen nostalgia going from them since most of the fandom originally grew up with the original series, but now that older fans have aged out of the fanbase and the younger generation grew up with DP or later, you're seeing the same type of nostalgia for the more recent series and companions too.

 

[Daren]

I think it depends what you're comparing it to, As I think all series after OS go down in viewership from aging out to just general popularity not as big as that initial boom. And I think every series has this weird “I don't like A B & C” early on and as the series goes they start liking A & B and maybe C really wasn't good but enough time has passed
Like with sun and moon the art style was a major complaint earlier on then as time went on people either just accepted it or really like it

Honestly, I think at least some of it is less people changing their mind and more that fewer of the old guard stick around every year.
I'll be open about my biases; I disliked DP pretty much from the start and my opinion of it only went down over time, but I recall it wasn't just me who missed AG during it's run. I think when BW was announced there was some amount of "Oh, I hope it's better than this one was" comments.

I forget what the DP dislikes were about, I just remember some didn't like Paul as much and they had that bad stretch between gym battles where it felt like a lot of filler,

The main ones I remember (not just complaints about specific episodes but recurring ones) were Ash losing too often after his good performance in AG (and no BF/OI arc to give him some sort of victory--at the time Johto had been the only region not to give him a post-league victory so a number of people assumed the Platinum BF would be included for that), Team Rocket continuing to take screentime from battles or other important events, Paul and Dawn were both accused at times of receiving writer's favouritism, Brock feeling superfluous, Piplup being an even bigger attention hog than Pikachu, and complaints about the long stretches between Gyms with the filler episodes being very unpopular at the time.

 

[Turbo]

Honestly, I think at least some of it is less people changing their mind and more that fewer of the old guard stick around every year.
I'll be open about my biases; I disliked DP pretty much from the start and my opinion of it only went down over time, but I recall it wasn't just me who missed AG during it's run. I think when BW was announced there was some amount of "Oh, I hope it's better than this one was" comments.

Yeah I think each series even the ones that are really similar do something that shifts it from the previous series
Like DP for example made a shift with Dawn from May that personally took me a while to get used to
And change in general isn't usually accepted especially when the thing before was good
ie: look at Journeys now lol

The main ones I remember (not just complaints about specific episodes but recurring ones) were Ash losing too often after his good performance in AG (and no BF/OI arc to give him some sort of victory--at the time Johto had been the only region not to give him a post-league victory so a number of people assumed the Platinum BF would be included for that), Team Rocket continuing to take screentime from battles or other important events, Paul and Dawn were both accused at times of receiving writer's favouritism, Brock feeling superfluous, Piplup being an even bigger attention hog than Pikachu, and complaints about the long stretches between Gyms with the filler episodes being very unpopular at the time.

Yeah I definitely remember some of those DP complaints now that you mention them lol

Yeah I think where DP succeeded/excelled in was at the cost of other stuff

Like I think Brock was also superfluous but I think I can admit that he was also better written in DP than in AG and OS don't can see those that just watched DP don't see the negatives of Brock as much

Similar with Paul, Paul looking good made Ash look bad and in a different way that Gary had done before but I think that extreme of Paul looking good made moments like the Brandon battle and the eventual lost at the league much better but still doesn't diminish that since Paul shows up a lot he made Ash look bad maybe too many times during the series

 

[Sai]

The Piplup complaints were always a bit overblown back then. There definitely was a time they made a bit too many fillers for it, but Piplup was handled well for a main girls pokemon and the rest of her team still got time to shine too. It was also the last main girls pokemon that was actually characterized really well at least in the Japanese version, and since the main girls pokemon are just cute plush dolls (Eevee or Lillie's Vulpix), or not handled well in their own saga (Axew), or just not shown much.

Obviously there were a lot of complaints about Brock still being around back then but I guess now that he's been gone for 12 years I'm a bit less harsh on him just being there since it did turn out to be his final series.

 

[Handy Man]

The Goodra and Tyrantrum releases in XY were really sad as well. Same with Clemont destroying Clembot. I cried at those when I rewatched XY.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

The Goodra and Tyrantrum releases in XY were really sad as well.

Uggh, why'd Goodra and Tyrantrum have to go? Seriously. Goodra's release felt pretty forced (especially the second time,) and Bonnie had a much stronger bond with that Tyrantrum than any of those scientist dudes. Kalos Dragon types got done dirty.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Uggh, why'd Goodra and Tyrantrum have to go? Seriously. Goodra's release felt pretty forced (especially the second time,) and Bonnie had a much stronger bond with that Tyrantrum than any of those scientist dudes. Kalos Dragon types got done dirty.

Tyrantrum actually belonged to those scientists. While Bonnie had a stronger bond with it, they would most likely have been able to care better care of it within that protective environment. It was still a sad to see Bonnie leave it there after they had bonded quite, but I don't think that she would have been able to take care of it like the scientists could. Not to mention I don't think that the writers would have wanted such a giant Pokemon within the main cast.

Goodra's departure is a different story. Given how rushed Goodra's evolutions/development was, it felt much less emotional than it should have been. Even at the time, a lot of people weren't sad about losing Goodra as a character or its relationship with Ash. They were sad that Ash was losing his psudeo-legendary Pokemon. Or at least that was the common reaction I remember from that episode. It didn't help that Noverin didn't do much of anything and they kept an empty slot on Ash's team for the rest of the series for Goodra, only for it to draw with its opponents when it did come back. Goodra could have been so much better if they spaced out its evolutions and waited until a bit later on in the series to release it, but I think that they were far more interested in giving Ash a powerhouse for his battle with Clemont.

People complained about Piplup a lot back in the day. I can see why when Piplup could often be annoying, it still got a lot of screentime and the transition from Piplup being treated like a regular Pokemon to being the always out of its Pokeball secondary mascot in early DP is still rather jarring, even in my rewatches. That being said, I think Piplup works a lot better now than it did when I first watched DP. It can still be annoying, but Dawn and Piplup's relationship is genuinely sweet and they have some great moments throughout the series. All of Dawn's Pokemon get a decent amount of attention. Some more than others and one could argue that Piplup taking a lot of center stage prevented some of her other Pokemon from getting more attention, but all of her Pokemon helped Dawn with her Contests. She didn't just rely on the power of her marketable starter all the time.

As for Brock, I think people were annoyed with how long he had been in the anime by that point and I could understand that to a degree, but I didn't really have a problem with that myself. His gag was old in AG, not helped by Max making it worse or more annoying, but Croagunk made his love daze gag funny again. More importantly, Brock had some really great episodes in both AG and DP. I never understood the idea that he was useless or unnecessary in DP when teaching Dawn about Pokemon medicine helped her in regaining Mamoswine's trust and he played a key role in the Team Galatic climax. I've seen a lot of fans act as if Dawn and Brock were practically strangers, but that never made sense to me. Their relationship wasn't highlighted nearly as much as Ash and Dawn's friendship was, but Brock still supported Dawn throughout her Contest arc. They were still friends and acted as such. I don't think that DP would have been significantly better if they had another character take Brock's place, so I can't really see his inclusion as a flaw either.

That being said, it was still for the best that DP was Brock's last series as part of the main cast. While I was fine with him being in the cast for so long, replacing all of the traveling companions and not just the female leads allowed the writers to have different dynamics within the main cast and new storylines to try out. Not all of them worked, but it still gave them something new to work with. Plua, Brock changing his goal to become a Pokemon Doctor felt natural and it was a good message to show that goals can change too.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

People complained about Piplup a lot back in the day. I can see why when Piplup could often be annoying, it still got a lot of screentime and the transition from Piplup being treated like a regular Pokemon to being the always out of its Pokeball secondary mascot in early DP is still rather jarring, even in my rewatches. That being said, I think Piplup works a lot better now than it did when I first watched DP. It can still be annoying, but Dawn and Piplup's relationship is genuinely sweet and they have some great moments throughout the series. All of Dawn's Pokemon get a decent amount of attention. Some more than others and one could argue that Piplup taking a lot of center stage prevented some of her other Pokemon from getting more attention, but all of her Pokemon helped Dawn with her Contests. She didn't just rely on the power of her marketable starter all the time.

Funny you should mention Piplup, because I've recently been rewatching DP (including the movies,) and......yeah. I'm definitely in that camp of people you mentioned before. I found Piplup to very annoying, in fact, and I still find it annoying to this day. (I also find his trainer to be annoying too, so there's that.) And, controversial opinion (and I actually already stated this in the Contoversial Opinons thread,) incoming here, and I'm probably in the minority when I say this, but I don't find Piplup to be cute. At all. Nope, Torchic's the cute one to me.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

It’s 8/18 in Japan

 

[c la fet]

What do people think of Platinum Berlitz ? (Sorry if it is off topic now)