Aqua and Magma's goals and their redesign

[The Outrage]

We can see from Aqua and Magma's redesign that Aqua takes a more brutish appearance, while Magma become scientists--why the sudden shift in design choice? I think its related to one of their original motivations for expanding the sea and land that many players had failed to recognize over the years. Here's their quotes from Mt. Chimney from their respective games:

Archie

Spoiler

"You again... Now listen. All life depends on the sea. The sea is everything! Its importance is paramount! That is why we of Team Aqua are committed to expanding the sea. Doing so will result in the emergence of new Pokémon species. We will return the world back to nature for the good of Pokémon. That is Team Aqua's vision! I can't allow an ignorant child like you to get in our way. I, Archie, will show you the consequences of meddling!"

Maxie

Spoiler

"You again... Now listen. We humans have grown on dry land. The land is everything! Its importance is paramount! That is why we of Team Magma are committed to expanding the landmass. It will create space for new species of Pokémon to evolve. It will give us humans more space to advance. That is Team Magma's vision! I can't allow an ignorant child like you to get in our way. I, Maxie, will show you the consequences of meddling!"

While both have a shared goal in the originals for creating space for new species to evolve, Magma also has this goal for human advancement while Aqua's goal was for the good of Pokemon. I think the new games should focus on these differences. Team Aqua in Alpha Sapphire should focus on expanding the sea to further progress Pokemon evolution, while Magma in Omega Ruby should try to expand the land in order to benefit humans and their technological advancements. It would make more sense as to why the two teams are even fighting each other if their goals were differentiated. While I think fighting for the same goal under different ideologies is interesting, the way it was set up in RS didn't really flow that well.

 

[Shadow Rush]

Progression and sacrifice, it sounds like another real world dilemma. I wouldn't be surprised if GF decided to use this as a revision to their previous theme for OR/AS.

 

[TerraTF]

If you think about it, in RS Aqua and Magma were really just skins of each other. Nothing too different. Their redesigns seem like a chance of separating them.

 

[The Outrage]

If you think about it, in RS Aqua and Magma were really just skins of each other. Nothing too different. Their redesigns seem like a chance of separating them.

Exactly--and we never really saw why we'd side with Aqua/Magma. It would be far more interesting if in AS, Magma sides with you because Aqua's actions would have adverse effects on human technological development, while Aqua sides with you in OR because Magma's ambitions is going to hinder the natural development of Pokemon. They both still have their unique goals, but depending on the version, one team is just one step closer to awakening their legendary compared to the other. After all is said and done, rather than the "good" team chastising the "bad" team like in the originals, they come to realize that their goals too are going to wind up with the same results.

 

[TerraTF]

If you think about it, in RS Aqua and Magma were really just skins of each other. Nothing too different. Their redesigns seem like a chance of separating them.

Exactly--and we never really saw why we'd side with Aqua/Magma. It would be far more interesting if in AS, Magma sides with you because Aqua's actions would have adverse effects on human technological development, while Aqua sides with you in OR because Magma's ambitions is going to hinder the natural development of Pokemon. They both still have their unique goals, but depending on the version, one team is just one step closer to awakening their legendary compared to the other. After all is said and done, rather than the "good" team chastising the "bad" team like in the originals, they come to realize that their goals too are going to wind up with the same results.

And I also really like the Admin redesigns. They were extremely forgettable in RSE. I just wish they changed Tabitha's name.

 

[The Outrage]

And I also really like the Admin redesigns. They were extremely forgettable in RSE. I just wish they changed Tabitha's name.

IIRC, people hypothesized Tabitha got a feminine name because Homura was a feminine name and the localization team didn't realize. Honestly, everyone but Shelly and Tabitha (thanks to the anime) were forgettable so they could be renamed, but at the same time those two got such a massive redesign that they could be renamed without a lot of people even knowing that they're the same character (as opposed to the controversy with Kris and Lyra due to their similar designs). But like I said in another thread, getting a unique design is in no way a guarantee that these characters are even going to play a bigger role *coughFlareScientistscough*

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

It's interesting that Aqua members are now all black.

 

[The Outrage]

It's interesting that Aqua members are now all black.

I really don't like this conflation with race and skin tone*. There is such a thing as a "tan" and they're all in a Japan-based region, and are pirates who probably stay outside a lot. Notice how other trainer classes that stay out a lot, particularly near water (e.g., swimmers and fishermen) tend to have dark or tanned skin in XY? I just find it kind of insulting to assume light skin = White and dark skin = Black, regardless of what region we're actually in given the large variation in skin tone for people within a specific racial group (I've seen incredibly pale and dark skinned Japanese people, that's not even counting other ethnic and racial groups).

*Also part of this is because Matt has an Aqua symbol on his torso. I don't want it to be a tattoo or a painting, I want to find out he just tanned his body except for that spot to make that symbol.

 

[IlluminationTheory]

OP - that is very interesting! No, I hadn't noticed that at all, never played against the admins back-to-back, just presumed they were each saying what the other said. Yes, the redesigns absolutely emphasise that part of their philosophies. Ah, it's smarter than I realised! Very good. Yes, I suspect they will tease that aspect out.

It's interesting that Aqua members are now all black.

I really don't like this conflation with race and skin tone*. There is such a thing as a "tan" and they're all in a Japan-based region, and are pirates who probably stay outside a lot.

Agreed. I think Pokémon could always do with a little more ethnic diversity - Unova and Kalos are doing quite well - but I think a team of black people and a team of white people would throw up all sorts of baffling questions. First off, the sheer coincidence that nobody of a different skin colour preferred the other team's ideals would be boggling, and secondly the idea that the white people all choose smart and indoorsy pursuits whereas black people spend lots of time outside and are really in touch with nature would be pretty hard to defend. For this reason, plus the fact that "The outdoors people have a tan" just makes more sense, I'm inclined to figure they're all just ambiguously Asian.

 

[Fairy Ice Ricky]

I remember thinking that some type of difference was supposed to exist between Magma and Aqua when I was younger, if only because Maxie is skinny and seems like the weaker & smarter leader in his RSE artwork, while Archie is buffer and seems like the stronger & more physical leader in his RSE artwork. (All of this is based on stereotypes about brains and brawns, sure, but it also doesn't seem like Game Freak is really trying to subvert those stereotypes in ORAS anyway, so there's that.) Of course, the awkwardly-too-similar plot line between Ruby & Sapphire made me dismiss the idea, but it's nice to see that Game Freak may in fact play with those differences between Maxie/Magma and Archie/Aqua in these remakes more than they did in the original games.

I didn't notice the dialogue back then, however, and I think that's a great way to make the two teams seem more different in their goals. I especially like how it adds more backstory/personality to the teams without needing to drastically change the story from the original games.

From here it makes me wonder how the dialogue will change for some of the characters. Like will they make Tabitha/Courtney speak more or less like Scientists in ORAS, while Matt/Shelly will have lines similar to a Roughneck? And how will the grunts change how they involve themselves with their team? (Although they could just be clueless grunts like grunts tend to be in this game.)

 

[Jukain]

Interesting theory, but it would mix with the duality I see between Reshiram and Zekrom, being that one version of Unova was more nature based (Reshiram), and the other technological (Zekrom). Then again, a lot of the cover legends have directly opposing aspects, and they could all be interpreted in such a way. I have also seen that both are also still the same thing deep inside. Whether you wish to conserve nature or manipulate it to your own ends, the same forces apply. The only thing that does separate them is your point of view. Either way, it would make little difference to me.

 

[TerraTF]

It's interesting that Aqua members are now all black.

I really don't like this conflation with race and skin tone*. There is such a thing as a "tan" and they're all in a Japan-based region, and are pirates who probably stay outside a lot.

Agreed. I think Pokémon could always do with a little more ethnic diversity - Unova and Kalos are doing quite well - but I think a team of black people and a team of white people would throw up all sorts of baffling questions. First off, the sheer coincidence that nobody of a different skin colour preferred the other team's ideals would be boggling, and secondly the idea that the white people all choose smart and indoorsy pursuits whereas black people spend lots of time outside and are really in touch with nature would be pretty hard to defend. For this reason, plus the fact that "The outdoors people have a tan" just makes more sense, I'm inclined to figure they're all just ambiguously Asian.

It makes sense for Aqua to have a much darker skin tone, just due to their redesigns which I'll be referencing in the quote after this.

I remember thinking that some type of difference was supposed to exist between Magma and Aqua when I was younger, if only because Maxie is skinny and seems like the weaker & smarter leader in his RSE artwork, while Archie is buffer and seems like the stronger & more physical leader in his RSE artwork. (All of this is based on stereotypes about brains and brawns, sure, but it also doesn't seem like Game Freak is really trying to subvert those stereotypes in ORAS anyway, so there's that.) Of course, the awkwardly-too-similar plot line between Ruby & Sapphire made me dismiss the idea, but it's nice to see that Game Freak may in fact play with those differences between Maxie/Magma and Archie/Aqua in these remakes more than they did in the original games.

And this leads to the redesigns. Team Magma seems to look like scientists, therefore it makes sense for the members to have a lighter skin tone as a lot of scientist spend time inside performing research. As for Team Aqua having a darker skin tone, as well as having more buff character designs, could put off the idea of them working on a ship and gives more of an imagery of Team Aqua being pirates.

 

[The Outrage]

Interesting theory, but it would mix with the duality I see between Reshiram and Zekrom, being that one version of Unova was more nature based (Reshiram), and the other technological (Zekrom). Then again, a lot of the cover legends have directly opposing aspects, and they could all be interpreted in such a way. I have also seen that both are also still the same thing deep inside. Whether you wish to conserve nature or manipulate it to your own ends, the same forces apply. The only thing that does separate them is your point of view. Either way, it would make little difference to me.

The only duality between Reshiram and Zekrom were visual differences in their design--and Reshiram was available in the more technologically advanced version of Unova anyway, and Zekrom in the more nature-conscious one. With that said, it was all visual representation; they did nothing about it plot-wise. Furthermore, a lot of themes in Pokemon are recurring. Cyrus made reference to Pokeballs hindering a Pokemon's true potential (his reasoning for not using the Master ball) a generation before BW. HgSs' entire walking mechanic, and the Ho-Oh/Lugia plot, was about developing human-Pokemon relationships. Elm wanted to see how spending time with Pokemon outside the Pokeball affects them, the Kimono Girls were looking for someone with a "heart of gold"/"silvery soul" in order to get Ho-Oh or Lugia to return. This last bit also introduces the idea that the player is the "chosen one" (technically Crystal and the Suicune subplot did it first) to use a legendary whereas RS and DPPt beforehand simply had you fight the legendary because if you didn't, the world would end. Lastly, Archie and Maxie alluded to their "human vs nature" two generations before BW. Now that we're actually revisiting Hoenn, I think they should do something about it.

 

[BlackButterfree]

And I also really like the Admin redesigns. They were extremely forgettable in RSE. I just wish they changed Tabitha's name.

IIRC, people hypothesized Tabitha got a feminine name because Homura was a feminine name and the localization team didn't realize. Honestly, everyone but Shelly and Tabitha (thanks to the anime) were forgettable so they could be renamed, but at the same time those two got such a massive redesign that they could be renamed without a lot of people even knowing that they're the same character (as opposed to the controversy with Kris and Lyra due to their similar designs). But like I said in another thread, getting a unique design is in no way a guarantee that these characters are even going to play a bigger role *coughFlareScientistscough*

I will miss Tabitha's original hunky bad boy design. Looks like he swallowed a Lickilicky whole. And while Shelly still looks sassy and sexy, I will definitely miss her peach hair. Matt wasn't all that memorable, so I do like what they did with him (although keeping the vest was a must that they didn't do) and Courtney looks identical to before, except for the lighter hair. Archie's new outfit just looks so dorky though, and Maxie just looks like Silver, Colress and Dr. Frankenstein all had a lovechild together... I do wish they'd had added Amber and Blaise (from Adventures) however. Blaise was smoking hot and Amber was an... interesting character, to say the least...

All in all, I'm not happy at all with these redesigns, except for the amazing job they did with both pairs of grunts. They could've redesigned the characters while keeping the original designs intact. They did it with Brendan, May and Steven, and quite well at that (not counting May... ). And what is up with them turning Team Aqua black? Nothing against black people, but having two evil teams where one is solely comprised of black people and is fighting with one fully comprised of white people will probably stir up some controversy...

 

[Mitchman]

Although the plot's gonna be similar to RS, I'm gonna assume for now that we're looking at a B2W2 situation, based off of Emerald Basically, Magma/Aqua tries to revive Groudon/Kyogre, other team tries to stop them by going overboard and rising the other legend, and bam! Rayquaza comes out of nowhere. Raising both legends puts them into primal form, and all you have to do is just defeat/catch rayquaza. The box legends would come post game, much like Kyurem.

 

[Silktree]

Although the plot's gonna be similar to RS, I'm gonna assume for now that we're looking at a B2W2 situation, based off of Emerald Basically, Magma/Aqua tries to revive Groudon/Kyogre, other team tries to stop them by going overboard and rising the other legend, and bam! Rayquaza comes out of nowhere. Raising both legends puts them into primal form, and all you have to do is just defeat/catch rayquaza. The box legends would come post game, much like Kyurem.

But why should Rayquaza be catchable prior to the Elite Four instead of the mascot? It is not as if Reshiram/Zekrom was catchable in the B2W2 climax.

I can Rayquaza getting involved in the climax, but a Sky Pillar detour would detract from the focus on the mascots. Rayquaza doesn't need anything more than a cutscene during the main story.

 

[Mitchman]

Right, forgot about that. Then it could just be rayquaza curb stomping the primal-G/K, but not having them completely subdued, requiring you to beat them. The cave of origins would then be left for the post-game, like the Sky Tower. Perhaps even it can involve the "good" team somehow.

 

[Silktree]

The cave of origins would then be left for the post-game,

It could, but they might as well make it accessible right after the climax; I don't see a good reason not to do that. With B2W2, Game Freak probably didn't want to give access us access to Kyurem and Reshiram/Zekrom prior to the Elite Four. They could have made the regular Kyurem available, but that would have been a little underwhelming.

 

[Kynn Master]

While I do think their goals are intersting in R/S and they shouldn't touch it, the "good" team is lacking reason to stop the other aside from the "make water, dry water". I think a good reason would be this

Team Magma:
Expanding the land will give space for humans to advance their technologies, and this is a good thing because we can develop ways of to ease the suffering of people, easy our communication and make things more affordable to everyone, not only this, with technology we can make machines to do the dangerous jobs and replace people and Pokemon, taking them away from a potent harm. Technology is the key to solve our problems.

Team Aqua:
As technology progresses, the contact between humans start to lessen and the search for resources increases, this affects the environment and can cause harm to pokemons and their habitat as well, not only this, but we humans become more and more dependent on technology as it progress, making us unable of doing simple tasks. The advance of technology will not only compromise the future of Pokemon, but ours too.

Sure, make this less complex and that would make a good reason for them to stop the other team without the reason being "more sea", "more land". Also it would match with their current designs, with Magma looking like scientists and Aqua being more, how can I say it, strong.

There might be some grammatical errors.

 

[SeanWheeler]

Although the plot's gonna be similar to RS, I'm gonna assume for now that we're looking at a B2W2 situation, based off of Emerald Basically, Magma/Aqua tries to revive Groudon/Kyogre, other team tries to stop them by going overboard and rising the other legend, and bam! Rayquaza comes out of nowhere. Raising both legends puts them into primal form, and all you have to do is just defeat/catch rayquaza. The box legends would come post game, much like Kyurem.

But why should Rayquaza be catchable prior to the Elite Four instead of the mascot? It is not as if Reshiram/Zekrom was catchable in the B2W2 climax.

I can Rayquaza getting involved in the climax, but a Sky Pillar detour would detract from the focus on the mascots. Rayquaza doesn't need anything more than a cutscene during the main story.

I think you should be able to catch Rayquaza between the eighth badge and the Elite Four. If you were heading toward the Ever Grande City and notices the path to Pacifidlog, you can visit Sky Pillar and catch Rayquaza. And you can go to Sealed Chamber to unlock the tombs of the Regis. Maybe Latias and Latios can start roaming after the weather crisis instead of post-game. I really want all Hoenn Legendaries to be obtainable before the Elite Four. You can fill your Hoenn Pokédex before the Elite Four by running both OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire parallel to eachother, occassionally trading between them and complete your Pokédex in both games before going to the Elite Four in either one.

Anyway, back on topic, with Team Aqua and Magma's ordeals, I'd side with Magma. I'm more of an indoor person who uses the computer everyday. I can't swim so Team Aqua's water world would be bad for me. And Maxie now has glasses like me!

And I don't think we'd be seeing Groudon in AlphaSapphire and Kyogre in OmegaRuby. The sneak preview shows that they're going with the Ruby/Sapphire climax, not Emerald. Rayquaza is still in Sky Pillar, don't worry.

Can we think of Team Aqua's plan in the Space Center?