Mafia Archie Sonic Mafia, Endgame: TBA (4/8/20)

[HumanDawn]

Town would be ExLight and surprisingly Rainbow Cloud now. ExLight I thought was a little shaky at the beginning of D1 with mostly just clarification posts (like quoting what pocketing meant when Luminary asked), but I like that Ex comes in and asks useful questions without too much fluff attached (like asides in the questions that would be filler). Once ExLight got going about mid D1-ish, I haven't really been pinged by them. Rainbow Cloud is in large part due to the claim; I know RC is a Sonic fan and thus could make up a fakeclaim that could feel legit, but that claim has been corroborated by TheCapsFan, and I don't think scum would want to buddy that obviously if they were BOTH scum trying to make an airtight fakeclaim. It also does fit a character pretty well IMO (Silver is my guess there), and RC's response to both my suspicions on him and his recent posts have been solid. His point about Pikochu (as well as Human's comment about his problem with the Deku vote) is a very good one. Human and Jinjo would probably be my next highest townreads.

Glad we're on the same wavelength there - but why the Town reads on me and... Jinjo??

Scum is Tood (especially with the survivor claim and no other ability attached to it; this has not made my scumread lessened at all, let's put it that way) and kind of a tie of ZinnLav (really for what they've inherited from DawningWinds, which has been addressed enough, but going from actually bothering to make a post for a late vote D1 to then subbing out presumably by request given it's mid-phase with no prior indication of wanting to do that is timing that also makes me nervous) and Pikochu, who I absolutely see the case against from RC and he really does feel disconnected from a lot of the events of the game, to the extent that he's probably the player I've most forgotten was in this game.

How do you feel about him saying he's simply survivor and nothing else?

The claim looks really bad as just a Survivor... Like, I find it hard to believe that Lone_Garurumon would make the game have bastard elements and just make Tood a plain old Survivor. In that case, I would mind even less if he got lynched, but I feel like his behaviour just comes off as a third party who doesn't care about what's going on. I feel like scum would make more of an effort to pretend to give a damn about the game. Is there anyone that would fit Survivor at least?

But aside from when the Pika_pika topic has come up, I really don't think Midorikawa has been that aggressive in this game? Just going off memory, it feels like most of her posts this phase have revolved around this single topic, with just a few things I can remember related to other players (she commented on the Jinjo votes).

Hmm...

Yeah, you're right about Pika_Pika42 - She hasn't really questioned that many other players despite being active. She says it's because of her work, but then she still only uses the activity she has to focus on Pika_Pika42. The thing about her aggression is that it feels like it makes sense for town!Mido to sometimes be narrow-minded to make hasty conclusions like saying Pika MUST either be Mafia or Independent. I might be getting it mixed up with scum her doing it, but I'm leaning on her just being narrow-minded for now.

I'm with you here, especially with him claiming that survivor is the only thing he is. No other ability being attached to it seems unlikely, especially when we've seen some wild claims so far from Pika and RC, and if Pika is truthful, there have been two potential killing roles already (his and Zorchic). Survivor not having anything to help survive...? Unvoting and then not voting anyone else doesn't help either.

Good point about them having nothing helping them to survive.

 

[FinalArcadia]

I feel more confident in a Pikochu lynch flipping scum than I do Pika_pika and would rather try to push that. And Piko's really giving a minimal amount of interaction in this thread, like he's swimming on the surface of the game rather than diving into real scumhunting. Basically, I agree with Rainbow Cloud and Human's reasons for their votes here, that Pikochu is doing very little that we can get information from and that may be on purpose.

UNVOTE: Tood
VOTE: Pikochu

Guess I can wait to see if any other indep flips or CCs in the meantime, but for the record I still don't trust Tood, and honestly I find it weird that his claim seemed to be nearly entirely ignored except by a handful of people, even after he clarified that he's survivor and survivor alone.

But why though? It's been a while since he's played a game, he's said that himself.

The fact that he hasn't really played in a while actually makes me think more that he'd be consistent with what I remember, since he hasn't had a lot of time to be playing games changing up his strategies and honing his skills. And whatever game was being mentioned early in D1 that Fatima recently-ish subbed out of as mafia lines kinda fits what he I'd see him doing as scum in the past too. Like I said though, the longer he goes without voting, the less meta is going to keep him in my good graces. Just that right now, he's also done nothing that stands out to me as something scum!Fatima would do.

 

[HumanDawn]

In one hour I will be in this year's Mafia Championship Game 11 Podcast!


View: https://www.twitch.tv/mrthingyman

 

[FinalArcadia]

Glad we're on the same wavelength there - but why the Town reads on me and... Jinjo??

Jinjo's reactions to votes earlier felt like organic town!Jinjo to me, and I think her posts since then have been pretty good. Admittedly, I like that she and I are thinking similarly about Tood, but I also think the way Jinjo has read and reacted to you looks good, as if she really is staying cautious but at the same time finds most of your content solid. The thing she brought up that she found suspicious from you D1 feels like paranoid town thoughts, even if I personally don't see what was suspicious about it. I've been scum with Jinjo before, and once she finally started posting more this phase, her behavior doesn't really remind me of when we were scumbuddies.

As for you... I've said before that I'm always a little nervous to trust you, but every time I've thought something might be a little off and asked you a question about it, your answers have been reasonable and make sense. You've been pushing the game a lot for sure, and the fluidity of your votes feels like you're moving them strategically rather than just haphazard "follow the leader to blend in"-type of vote switching. Plus, kinda like with Jinjo, I do tend to townread players I agree with on things, for better or for worse lol. I'm more on your side with the Pika_pika thing, and yeah, scum!you could have motives to defend Pika regardless of his alignment, but your arguments for it read more to me as town trying to stop what you believe will be a mislynch. Like tying some of your benefit of the doubt in the claim to the bastard element, which is a solid reason that strikes me as you trying to figure out how things will work in this game's structure.

Is there anyone that would fit Survivor at least?

If there was... Scourge maybe? He's bad, but like in a way that he's mostly really out for himself and doesn't really care about anyone else (other than I guess Fiona) and could potentially fit survivor for that reason since it's a kind of selfish role, but Scourge was also Anti-Sonic with comparable abilities to Sonic (but added to a love of violence) and could fit other powers as well if he's here. I'm not really sure here though, it's a generic enough ability for a comic that had TONS of characters that it's hard to pin anyone in particular who is outside of the Freedom Fighters group.

 

[Fatima Shadow Frost Witch]

The fact that he hasn't really played in a while actually makes me think more that he'd be consistent with what I remember, since he hasn't had a lot of time to be playing games changing up his strategies and honing his skills. And whatever game was being mentioned early in D1 that Fatima recently-ish subbed out of as mafia lines kinda fits what he I'd see him doing as scum in the past too. Like I said though, the longer he goes without voting, the less meta is going to keep him in my good graces. Just that right now, he's also done nothing that stands out to me as something scum!Fatima would do.

You want me to vote we'll alright then


VOTEikochu

Let's see how this goes

 

[Jinjo]

wdym here, Jinjo? I have them as solid town so I'm curious on what you mean by slipped

Luminary said at night, "Looking back, I don't really get what any of this means or what it's trying to imply asking if this is meta." I asked her if she reread everything from beginning of day 1 and if she was to reread everything, then she would have been able to understand what my post meant by reading my interaction with Mido.

I'm with you here, especially with him claiming that survivor is the only thing he is. No other ability being attached to it seems unlikely, especially when we've seen some wild claims so far from Pika and RC, and if Pika is truthful, there have been two potential killing roles already (his and Zorchic). Survivor not having anything to help survive...? Unvoting and then not voting anyone else doesn't help either

The problem I have with Tood is that he has been voting and if he was a survivor he would have been playing passive since normally survivors would play passive and not join in on the fight of town vs mafia.

The claim looks really bad as just a Survivor... Like, I find it hard to believe that Lone_Garurumon would make the game have bastard elements and just make Tood a plain old Survivor. In that case, I would mind even less if he got lynched, but I feel like his behaviour just comes off as a third party who doesn't care about what's going on. I feel like scum would make more of an effort to pretend to give a damn about the game. Is there anyone that would fit Survivor at least?

You said Tood comes off as a third party who doesn't care about what's going on saying you feel like scum would make more of an effort to pretend to give a damn about the game. On day 1 Tood has been questioning Zorchic, voted Fatima on day 1 saying he is iffy on them and on day 2 he votes Pika and how does that look like him not caring when it looks like he has been putting effort in the game?


LG said this is a game with bastard mechanics and I have never seen a survivor in a bastard mechanic game.

 

[Tood]

The problem I have with Tood is that he has been voting and if he was a survivor he would have been playing passive since normally survivors would play passive and not join in on the fight of town vs mafia.

Yeah but I've played mostly as lurking/passive scum in the last few games I've been in, so there's no doubt someone'd call me out for that if I were to play more passively. Clearly it's not working in my favor to actually try and do a bit more either, so whatever, I guess.

Also, in the hypothetical situation where I was scum fakeclaiming, don't you think the other mafia members would help come up with a more plausible and less ridiculous fakeclaim than just "survivor"?

 

[ExLight]

He wouldn't claim it because then Mafia would know for sure to not target him

that was a question as to why he wouldn’t claim that as mafia tho? why would mafia target themselves?

Huh? Why would Town ask to be lynched Day 2? If they did that, we'd kind of have a wasted day with people having the excuse to vote him.

from my experience D2 is a bit too late since the usual play for compulsory PGO seems to be to claim D1 and let themselves get lynched. it’s a anti-town modifier that can result in multiple town casualties.
however I did play a game where we allowed a claimed PGO to survive after D1 because there was also a backup claim so we couldn’t really just lynch them, but there was still some chonk discussion on whether or not to kill them. In the end, since they had claimed D1 and almost got lynched the players assumed it was the truth, which kinda differs from what happened here since Pika only softclaimed after D1.

What’s the actual votecount? I might be fine with jumping in one of my null wagons

 

[ExLight]

as for the tood thing, I’m fine with him dropping a survivor claim like this in the meanwhile and I’d feel more paranoid about him being a hostile indept rather than mafia

unless anyone counterclaims it with another non-hostile indept claim I don’t see why prioritize him lynch over scumhunting for now since if we reach a state close to -Lo we could possibly shoot or lynch him to guarantee a non-town death and buy us more time

 

[TheCapsFan]

Read up but first I have some dirt to clear:

It's positive but it's not absolute. Given time as we learn more about the game from a mechanical point of view, I can rethink Pika_Pika42 more deeply. I already argued against the reasoning that I don't see is perfectly logical. I would argue the same that mine is perfectly logical too, and that would bring in a natural clash in thoughts. Sure, you can logically think ways he could still be Mafia, but I came to think that he's more likely to be Town than not.

Shoot me in the foot if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

Well then, let's agree to disagree then. Of course you're going to always disagree with the negative vibes I'm getting around your posts for your own self-preservation, anyway.

I feel like even if Pika_Pika42 was Mafia and I with him, I wouldn't bother defending him so much because of the connection it would bring to us. You saw my Champs game - no strings attached, and I bussed my two partners without much reconsideration. Considering a Cop died I would think that bussing would become more appealing to me to ensure I have longevity.

Again, WIFOM. You know that people will be watching you more closely this game because of what happened in the champs game. You could have definitely changed your strategy. But I see your point there.

Can you point which post I autoconfirmed Pika_Pika42? Because I never once said he was confirmed as Town.

If you're going to put it that way, yeah, you never autoconfirmed him. But in your world he's out of the lynch picture today, and I genuinely disagree with that.

I didn't make a big deal out of it, I didn't talk much about it. Didn't even vote Fatima for it - I asked what people thought and not many agreed, and I think even I said I was probably paranoid, so I don't see where the extravagance is from.

Okay fine then, that's just how I read your tone. Maybe my already prior scumread on you was distorting that a little bit.

He was trying to not get the Cop to check him but be vague enough that maybe Mafia still targets him later down the line. He can't stay both silent to bait the Mafia to kill him and protect Town PRs from targetting him, so he tries to make up for that by not saying it would kill

And I'm saying that if he were to put himself in Mafia's shoes then he should see there's no real reason FOR Mafia to target him. I've already gone into that.

How is it WIFOM? You said it was bad I put him Top Town and that it's a detriment, and I disagreed because it would only be a detriment if I said I would permanently keep him that way.

I am gung-ho about my Town read because I don't want a mislynch. Could you explain how you think that's not towny?

I'm still skeptical and I've already entertained the possibilities and came to the conclusion that because he is the first bastard claim in a bastard game he has the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe it's not totally WIFOM, but it's still sus. Did you ever say that you would potentially re-evaluate your read on him later in the game before that post? If you did, then I missed it, but if not, then you're over here super sure in your town read and yet you leave it to US to make the conjecture that no, you might possibly maybe not be super sure in it.

That's fine and all. I don't want a mislynch either. But if we are to mislynch I'd rather get rid of a role that has the potential to hurt town.

@TheCapsFan, if you're going to argue about me not seeing the "perfectly logical reasoning" as to why Pika_Pika42 would lie (which I do, but I don't agree is the case for my own reasons), you could say the same about Midorikawa who tunneled Pika_Pika42 hard (and is the only thing I can remember her doing this entire phase despite posting so much) and strongly narrowed down Pika_Pika42 to being either Mafia or Independent:

I could. I've been doing some thinking and I've decided I'm not super sure about Mido anymore and might want to push her way to see how she responds. As it stands I don't think she's been in the thread so far today and I'd like to see her react to our discussion as well as the stuff ExLight has said. Partially because they always fight and it's really entertaining

Or because he's a player in the game and he should care more about living to help win the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

This is a reach and it worries me you aren't showing any paranoia over it.

Well it makes sense now given his claim, which I am very paranoid about (and I think you know that).

I think there's a chance Pika_Pika42 is Mafia.

Midorikawa doesn't think there's any way he can be Town though, and that's worrisome.

I agree.

Can everyone share their top 2 Town and Scum reads? This will generate more discussion and we will get to know everyone's opinions.

Pre re-read, I'm gonna put FinalArcadia and Rainbow Cloud as top town. FinalArcadia has been gamesolving through both scumhunting and flavorsolving and I agree with a lot of what she has to say. Rainbow Cloud is a read that may be subject to change based on Pikapika (If they are both telling the truth, I don't think they would be on the same team) but I do feel good about his claim, in my opinion he showed towny promise on D1 despite his activity, which is contrary to a lot of the lowposters, and another +1 in his favor. ExLight could be up there as well.

For top scum, obviously Pika_pika for reasons I've stated before. I'm tempted to put HumanDawn next, but the more I read of HD's responses the more I am convinced that they cannot both be mafia. What he's saying does make sense. I think instead I will put DekuNut. I remember talking about this last night but his low activity combined with the fact that he said he would come back and put in effort but never showed up, is cause for alarm.

Overall though I feel like a lot of my middle-ish reads aren't really super confident, again something I hope a reread will clear up.

 

[TheCapsFan]

What does he being Town or Mafia have to do with deciding to out your role in-thread though? Everyone knows now anyway.

No matter his alignment, it still worked on you regardless. Sure, it helps confirm his role, but nobody has shown to doubt it in the first place, so why change your mind on outing information on your role? It doesn't add up.

Do you think his role is a bastard role?

Because I think I convinced myself that RC and Pika are not on the same team. I know that might not make sense right now, but hopefully it will start to after today.

Yes, I do think his role is a bastard role, which is part of why I think they're not on the same team.

Why don't y'all think of me as an asset instead of a liability? Instead of wasting a lynch on me, if you just let me be, the mafia won't kill me without risking one of their own, so they would rather lynch me off. If you give me one chance, I'll be more active and help with scumhunting. If you still find me suspicious after that, you can always lynch me later.

Personally, the potential for you to be a liability far outweighs the potential for you to be an asset. I don't like the "give me one chance" mantra, when you've had two whole days to be more active and help with scumhunting.

There are 4 possibilities which could happen to someone upon targeting me:
1) Remain alive + action successful
2) Remain alive + action unsuccessful
3) Die + action successful
4) Die + action unsuccessful

Three of those possibilities are anti-town.

 

[TheCapsFan]

can you tell us which points you found solid?

Yes, let me go find a few examples:

You mean about Fatima? Fatima is standing out way too much, so as far as right now goes, I'm inclined to think Fatima isn't scum.

if you're miller, why not just claim it? If you're not, I can't think of a non-scummy reason why you would say this

Oh, right there's hammer in this game?

Unvote: Jinjo

All these I feel are towny things to say given their respective contexts. The first refers to Fatima's weird claim/PR soft thing D1, the second refers to Pikapika, it is a good point that I don't think was said before this, the third shows willingness to pause and allow for more discussion and scumhunting.

That being said, going through Space's posts I noticed that a lot of them are centered around Fatima. Dunno if this is tunneling because Fatima is an easy target, or if they just don't have a lot to say about others? Idk

 

[ExLight]

Aight, so I made my votals here to check how the votes are going and seems like we're on a wagon tie between Pika_pika42 and Pikochu

I'm fine with both lynches, and although I feel like RC + Pika_Pika might be a dangerous combo I'm fine with jumping in the Pikochu since his content kinda feels like stepping back from the real action and being shallow.

Vote: Pikochu

Jinjo (2): Rainbow Cloud

is this from the last votecount correct, Lone?

 

[TheCapsFan]

the copypaste conspiracy theory? really?
and if you think it's a slip, why would you call it a policy lynch? policy lynches don't care about alignment.

Policy lynch wasn't the right terminology, my bad. I just would have pushed it more.

What's the point of lying about it and why is the second part making you town read them "a lot more"?

The first part of your post I included in my responses to HD. The second part I already mentioned as well, they were being proactive which contrasted with pikapika, and helped me put a townread on them.

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

is this from the last votecount correct, Lone?

The voting player is correct, the number is not. This has been fixed.

 

[TheCapsFan]

I don't think I've seen anything that will change my mind at this point, I will leave my vote where it is.

 

[Midorikawa]

But aside from when the Pika_pika topic has come up, I really don't think Midorikawa has been that aggressive in this game? Just going off memory, it feels like most of her posts this phase have revolved around this single topic, with just a few things I can remember related to other players (she commented on the Jinjo votes).

I didn’t even mean to be that active of the pika stuff. I was planning to play a bit more passively Due to in real life stress, but I slipped into aggressiveness arguing with human.

Pikochu pretty much only repeated his Night 1 vote and... then nothing. No engagement with anyone. At least DekuNut has his meta, but even that is starting to get on my nerves.

....I legit keep forgetting he’s in this game.

On a note it looks like no matter what a little electric mouse will be On the gallows. : p

 

[Fatima Shadow Frost Witch]

What if we end up picking another Townie that would give Mafia a somewhat small advantage

 

[ExLight]

even if piko flips town we'd get information from it anyway

 

[ExLight]

how much are you scumreading piko though
I remember you making some reads for 5 players and I remember you putting two of them in your scum reads

what exactly is making you vote piko over them?