• Excited about the recently announced new Pokémon games? Join us here for discussion and speculation.
  • Visit your account preferences to list your favourite Gen 9 Starter, and you'll get the appropriate badge added to your profile!
  • If you are finding yourself unable to log in, you should be able to fix the issue by following the following process.
    1. Close all browser tabs with any part of Bulbagarden open.
    2. Delete all Bulbagarden.net cookies (and if possible, any cached site data for Bulbagarden) from your browser.
    3. Close and reopen your browser, open a new tab, and log into the forums on the new tab.
    If you've followed this process and are still having issues, please contact us via the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the forum.

Are the two sinnoh games a test?

Fairy Type Arceus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
1,900
Reaction score
1,614
So as we have known for months now we are getting two sinnoh games. One a traditional remake with all the bells and whistles from the original, probably with a coat of Masudas perspective about modern games and the mobile market.

The other game is something fans, online anyway, have been begging for decades. A huge openish world, new take in the battle system, crafting, large tasks that take a long time (the pokedex quests look like they could be very grindy), they even included new Pokemon to sweeten the deal.

Its almost like...these games were made to be exact opposites of one another. One simple, chibi, what we'd expect any other normal Pokemon game to look like. The other large, new things, actual risks taken, not anything we would think they would have actually done just a few months ago.

I feel like this may be a test from gamefreak. Masuda and his ideas for what a Pokemon game should be (this and his last game being very faithful chibi like games) vs something new and innovative. Do they want to test what the fandom actually wants with these two games? Do they want safe and familiar, or new and innovative risks?

What do you guys think? Is gamefreak testing the waters with two different sinnohs to see what the general fanbase values more?
 

Boss1708

Pokémon Master
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
3,797
Unpopular opinion here, but I definitely value the traditional Pokemon game formula more. I don't like it when Pokemon innovates in weird ways, like what they're doing with Legends: Arceus.

So this is why I am definitely more excited for BDSP.
 

Boss1708

Pokémon Master
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
3,797
BD/SP feel very much like a "ugh, we don't want to do more remakes but we have to so let's just pass it off to someone else."
And I think this is a wise decision. I can feel ILCA's passion and excitement in being tasked to make BDSP.

Also, I didn't want another remake made by Game Freak, after how disappointed I was with Omega Ruby/ Alpha Sapphire.

So I hope ILCA are the right people for this remake job.
 

Fairy Type Arceus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
1,900
Reaction score
1,614
And I think this is a wise decision. I can feel ILCA's passion and excitement in being tasked to make BDSP.

Also, I didn't want another remake made by Game Freak, after how disappointed I was with Omega Ruby/ Alpha Sapphire.

So I hope ILCA are the right people for this remake job.
Thing is Masuda is still at the helm so alot of choices that made oras feel bad to some are likely still there (at least this time we have customization though)
I kinda feel like the Sw/Sh DLC was the true test of concept with Legends being the final result based on that.

BD/SP feel very much like a "ugh, we don't want to do more remakes but we have to so let's just pass it off to someone else." :confused:
I don't know about that. The dlc felt more like a test for open areas sure but not Legends Arceus. I feel the Remakes are more for giving newer players the normal sinnoh expirence for context when they play legends. But also I think it could be a way to test the fan bases actual feelings on what they really want. Fans online screaming they want innovation aren't the whole audience, people hated swsh and lets go, they sold very well though. People complaining online that Masuda is out of touch might just be wrong because he seems to understand the market very well since the games continue to sell like hotcakes.

Edit one other point: BDSP is also higher on the pre order list for gamestop if thats indicative of anything
 

Esserise

Operating without a T-437
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
22,036
Pronouns
he/him
I don’t know about that. I think maybe they would like to try something new; maybe that’s an idea that they’re creatively interested in persuing, but perhaps they are concerned that people either won’t be receptive to it, or will be disappointed that Diamond & Pearl didn’t get the “usual treatment” like previous remade games. A game in the style of Arceus won’t really be able to recreate the Sinnoh that people are nostalgic for - it’s too drastic a transformation. So I think they just want to make sure they have a safe, conventional option available as well. They’re letting a different company handle that (under the watchful eye of a long-time company veteran and director of the original DP) because it’s a relatively straightforward remit.
 

Esiouqrut

Greenish-Blue Trainer (?)
Joined
Aug 24, 2016
Messages
346
Reaction score
517
Pronouns
Жe/Жir/Жem
I don't think they're testing the "which one do you like better" kind of water. Just the general "will you be interested if we make this kind of game?". I doubt they'll stop making the more traditional style game even if Legends do well, as, like you've said, that's still selling like a hotcake. I think they've had this concept for a while and the transition to Switch just kind of pushing them to do it. But, they also know that DPPt is one of, if not the most, loved game in the series and people have been crying for a remake since ORAS came out. So they just choose to make both.

BDSP is also higher on the pre order list for gamestop if thats indicative of anything
BDSP comes out earlier than Legends, though, and Legends technically comes out next year. That might lend to that fact. Also there are two version of that game and, while I'm not sure about the number nor the significance of that, there's people who pre-order both.
 

Almonds

Lovely
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
14,649
Reaction score
4,547
Does anyone think the release date might also be a test? Legends: Arceus is released after the holidays. I wonder if they want to see how well their product sells without the holiday buff?
 

Norzan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
2,093
Reaction score
1,185
Sinnoh remakes being used as insurance in case Legends Arceus doesn't sell well (hence the very small release gap). Because the game that is just copying most of the original game is cheaper to produce than the actual brand new game with new mechanics (at least for the series), so gotta do something really safe to recoup potential losses.
 

Esiouqrut

Greenish-Blue Trainer (?)
Joined
Aug 24, 2016
Messages
346
Reaction score
517
Pronouns
Жe/Жir/Жem
Does anyone think the release date might also be a test? Legends: Arceus is released after the holidays. I wonder if they want to see how well their product sells without the holiday buff?
Most likely no. They don't have any previous sales data on this kind of game to do any kind of comparison, so there's no way to conclude anything out of that.
 

Mr. MoonStone

Just your average everday moon fan
Joined
May 5, 2021
Messages
306
Reaction score
755
Pronouns
he/him
I don't think their reasoning is super complex or anything. Legends Arceus was likely the game they had in planning as the natural successors for Sw'Sh (and could be a preview of the stylistic changes for Gen IX as well) while BDSP was developed for fans of more traditional remake-games. I think the outsourcing of the title strongly favors that consensus too.

The closeness in dates likely favored promotional decisions as it's easier to market similar titles within a short timeframe rather than spread material over a huge gap.
 

Almonds

Lovely
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
14,649
Reaction score
4,547
Most likely no. They don't have any previous sales data on this kind of game to do any kind of comparison, so there's no way to conclude anything out of that.
But that's the thing. Why risk releasing the new project after the holidays when they could have safe sales during the holidays and get a good number of consensus and reviews from the market? BDSP is a remake, and guaranteed to get good amount of sales just for the Gen 4 remake title alone. If anything, I'm surprised LA wasn't chosen to release for the holiday season and BDSP was chosen instead. If the release dates are that close, surely they would have considered switching the dates if they thought it was necessary?
 

Esiouqrut

Greenish-Blue Trainer (?)
Joined
Aug 24, 2016
Messages
346
Reaction score
517
Pronouns
Жe/Жir/Жem
But that's the thing. Why risk releasing the new project after the holidays when they could have safe sales during the holidays and get a good number of consensus and reviews from the market? BDSP is a remake, and guaranteed to get good amount of sales just for the Gen 4 remake title alone. If anything, I'm surprised LA wasn't chosen to release for the holiday season and BDSP was chosen instead. If the release dates are that close, surely they would have considered switching the dates if they thought it was necessary?
To get GF a little more time for development? Because the two of them is connected and releasing PL:A first might be weird? to name a few reasons I could think of. And maybe they think that two months is a safe duration for the games to not cannibalise each other.
 

Silktree

Not Dead
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
19,763
Reaction score
13,827
But that's the thing. Why risk releasing the new project after the holidays when they could have safe sales during the holidays and get a good number of consensus and reviews from the market? BDSP is a remake, and guaranteed to get good amount of sales just for the Gen 4 remake title alone. If anything, I'm surprised LA wasn't chosen to release for the holiday season and BDSP was chosen instead. If the release dates are that close, surely they would have considered switching the dates if they thought it was necessary?
I think that they want to extend Legends' lifetime by way of DLC. It would be odd if BDSP were released in the middle. Besides, Legends needs more polishing than BDSP, even if it's just two months. Having said all that, if they want Legends to be a sub-series (I'm sure they do), then flexibility with release dates is a good idea.
 

Joker901

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
3,232
Reaction score
7,517
Legends was announced as a "new era for Pokémon", it's obvious they want to continue this way. We just don't know if what they mean is that Gen 9 will follow Pokemon Legends in style and structure or Legends will just be another parallel main serie, with new gens keeping their traditional not really open-worldish structure (and the player not being able to jump).
 

Silktree

Not Dead
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
19,763
Reaction score
13,827
Legends was announced as a "new era for Pokémon", it's obvious they want to continue this way. We just don't know if what they mean is that Gen 9 will follow Pokemon Legends in style and structure or Legends will just be another parallel main serie, with new gens keeping their traditional not really open-worldish structure (and the player not being able to jump).
I don't see why they'd call it "Legends" if it weren't a sub-series. More to the point, Legends is a single player game with no trainer battles (maybe one or two). I highly doubt that the next generation will prioritize catching over trainer battles, but it will probably borrow some elements from Legends the same way SwSh borrowed overworld Pokemon from LGPE.
 

Joker901

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
3,232
Reaction score
7,517
I don't see why they'd call it "Legends" if it weren't a sub-series. More to the point, Legends is a single player game with no trainer battles (maybe one or two). I highly doubt that the next generation will prioritize catching over trainer battles, but it will probably borrow some elements from Legends the same way SwSh borrowed overworld Pokemon from LGPE.
I don't see Legends as a sub-serie. I think it's just a new main line serie. Consider that this game is developed by GF while the remakes (which are traditional main line games) are not. Nothing stops GF from making Gen 9 just a modern Pokemon Legends, with cities, trainers, League etc. but with the same mechanics of Legends (seamless battles and catching, new battle system, riding pokemon, open world/map etc.) and maybe bringing back some old ones (like pokemon abilities).
The two serie would be different just because of the time period. We just don't know what direction GF is going to take with gen 9.
 

Silktree

Not Dead
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
19,763
Reaction score
13,827
I don't see Legends as a sub-serie. I think it's just a new main line serie. Consider that this game is developed by GF while the remakes (which are traditional main line games) are not. Nothing stops GF from making Gen 9 just a modern Pokemon Legends, with cities, trainers, League etc. but with the same mechanics of Legends (seamless battles and catching, new battle system, riding pokemon, open world/map etc.) and maybe bringing back some old ones (like pokemon abilities).
The two serie would be different just because of the time period. We just don't know what direction GF is going to take with gen 9.
Two series or one series? You can't call a game in the modern Pokemon world "Legends". You're downplaying Legends having different mechanics (at the expense of abilities, which few fans would like to see removed for good) and little to no trainer battles or interaction with other players.

Yes, I get that you want things like seamless battles and no linearization (leaving aside the fact that Legends limits you to biomes, which gradually become accessible), which could happen. But that isn't everything that makes Legends unique.

On the flip side, riding Pokemon was introduced in XY. It's still pretty limited if you can only ride four Pokemon (LGPE had more).
 
Last edited:

Joker901

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
3,232
Reaction score
7,517
Two series or one series? You can't call a game in the modern Pokemon world "Legends". You're downplaying Legends having different mechanics (at the expense of abilities, which few fans would like to see removed for good) and little to no trainer battles or interaction with other players.

Yes, I get that you want things like seamless battles and no linearization (leaving aside the fact that Legends limits you to biomes, which gradually become accessible), which could happen. But that isn't everything that makes Legends unique.

On the flip side, riding Pokemon were introduced in XY. They're still pretty limited if you can only ride four Pokemon (LGPE had more).
Two series. Legends set in the past, traditional main serie set in modern times with more trainer battles and pokemon abilities (btw, you seem to be pretty sure that trainer battles will be totally absent from Legends. Considering we still don't know 90% of that game, I think it's too soon to make that assumption).
I don't mind and don't want anything in particular. I have Legends for those mechanics, I don't need all games to be the same. I'm just pointing out that GF stated that Legends rapresents a new era for pokemon and we still don't know how they intend that sentence for future games.
Riding pokemon may be introduced in X/Y but clearly they didn't allow you to explore the all map, until now riding pokemon were just a bike with a different model. The closest thing we had was flying on mega latios and latias, but that was also pretty limited to the sky.
 
Top