Are we going to see Kalos in the Post-game?

[Silktree]

Well, that's my point. HGSS count as Johto games.

 

[Aulos]

I wish. But I doubt we'll see a second region at all. Would certainly make the game feel worth it. I'd be much more interested in Kalos than Alola.

 

[Bolt Strike]

No, we won´t.

Also, Kalos was not exactly abondoned. It was a more complete product than SM is, so it didn´t need an expansion as much. It was also a less open ended plot than BW1 and SM are, so it didn´t leave much room for expanding.

Regarding the few open ended bits Kalos may have left, were expanded upon, and explained in ORAS (Origin of Mega Evolution, Ultimate Weapon, Infinity Energy, etc). And the Zygarde formes were included in SM. Therefore, there is really no reason to revisit Kalos currently, or to call it incomplete.

Yeah XY was not more complete than SM. Not even close.

For one, as much as people still complain about SM not having enough content XY had even less to do. After you beat XY, you had the Friend Safari, a couple of token legendaries, and some battle facilities and that's it. SM had Festival Plaza, Poke Finder, collecting Zygarde cores, the Battle Tree, and the Ultra Beasts.

But more importantly is the region itself. Both regions had a couple of areas that seemed like they should've had more to them (the Power Plant and Couriway Station in Kalos' case, the Golf Course and Dream Park in Alola's case), but Kalos has much, much more potential for expanding the region than Alola. Kalos has a lot of unused land on the map and references to a Southern portion of the region (not to mention that the entire Southern half of France was unused in XY, which lends credibility to the idea of seeing new areas to the South), but Alola has almost no unused landmass on its map and they would need to create new islands to give it the same kind of expansion. And since the four island system is deeply ingrained to the region's lore and culture, it's unlikely they'll do that.

And even though they did toss some XY elements into ORAS and SM, they didn't properly explain or resolve them, they were basically just token references and not really properly explained or related to XY's storyline. Zygarde was just shoehorned into Alola for no reason other than "it just showed up to warn you of danger", a reasoning more on par with bonus post game legendaries from past regions than a third version expanding on the legendary's identity and lore, and it wasn't connected to Xerneas and Yveltal in any way, which was its primary reason for powering up to its Complete form. ORAS' additions to the Mega Evolution lore didn't really build on XY's and in some ways actually contradicted it, meanwhile there's still some unsolved mysteries behind XY's lore (What is Project AZOTH? How do Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde relate to each other and how are they viewed by the Kalos region? Where are Xerneas and Yveltal typically found? Why does Zygarde inhabit Terminus Cave and what is that place's significance? What is the nature behind Eternal Flower Floette's unique form and why does its flower look like the Ultimate Weapon?).

So yeah, Alola has far less potential than Kalos and it's getting more than Kalos got, which definitely seems like a massive injustice. I can live without an update to SM much more than I can live without an update to XY.

 

[Esserise]

Zygarde was just shoehorned into Alola for no reason other than "it just showed up to warn you of danger", a reasoning more on par with bonus post game legendaries from past regions than a third version expanding on the legendary's identity and lore

They did expand on Zygarde's lore, you're just not looking at it from the right angle. There's not any big mythical event in Kalos's past that involves Zygarde like, say, the brothers' conflict in Unova. Kalos's history is all about the war, and Mega Evolution. Could Game Freak have somewhere included an expository paragraph about this one time that Xerneas and Yveltal got out of control and Zygarde was forced to intervene and stop them? Yes, but then, yawn. How derivative.

The "expansion" of Zygarde's role is the revelation that it is divided into Cells, and that these Cells cooperate in order to monitor the environment, and defend it by taking on increasingly more powerful forms. If you'll remember, all that XY said was that Zygarde monitors the environment and "reveals its secret power" when things get bad. SM build on that by revealing the unique mechanism of its "secret power." And clearly, a game needn't be set in Kalos in order to illustrate this, nor does a plot need be centered around Zygarde (arguably, it works better if it isn't).

If you don't like that detail, then that's your view, but we undeniably went from a point of knowing only a sentence's worth of detail about Zygarde's behavior, to having an entire unique mechanic and two extra forms to demonstrate it. Zygarde didn't really get shortchanged in any way that actually matters.

and it wasn't connected to Xerneas and Yveltal in any way, which was its primary reason for powering up to its Complete form.

Because it is a completely effortless and unrewarding exercise write this story. If one or both of them gets out of hand, Zygarde tells them to pipe down. Zygarde's connection to Xerneas and Yveltal is a narrative dry well that inevitably ends with them plagiarizing Rayquaza. At least by tossing Zygarde into SM, they can still do something functionally unique with it while at the same time developing a different Legendary Pokémon plot that isn't just a hollow rehash of Emerald.

meanwhile there's still some unsolved mysteries behind XY's lore

Mysteries that aren't ever actually presented as mysteries, or as things to be resolved. You're just fixating on trivial details.

What is Project AZOTH?

Not anything to do with XY (it like, wasn't even mentioned in those games...); ORAS state, in plain text, that Project AZOTH is the formal name for Team Magma/Aqua's plan to awaken Groudon/Kyogre.

How do Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde relate to each other

The games give us everything we need to figure this out. Is it truly imperative that we not only be spoonfed the obvious, but commit an entire game to it?

At least with Necrozma right now, there's not an immediately clear answer as to how it relates to Solgaleo and Lunala.

and how are they viewed by the Kalos region?

They aren't. We know this. They already said in XY that most records of Kalos's Legendary Pokémon are super-old and unhelpfully vague because of Xerneas/Yveltal's nap cycle. Again, if you find this explanation unsatisfying, then that's your prerogative, but they did cover it one way or the other.

So Zygarde doesn't have to do jack about them but every 1000 years maybe, assuming they even go off-rails during that period. And when they're sleeping, Zygarde hangs about in its cave like most Legendary Pokémon and keeps an eye on the rest of the ecosystem. Some miners in Terminus Cave obviously bothered it at some point and thought it was a scary monster, which as far as significance to the region's history goes, is more-or-less where Kyurem was as of BW, and actually more than Giratina or Rayquaza by where they were at in DP and RS. (Which is ironic, seeing as those two were crowbarred into their own respective regions' histories essentially by saying, "lol, the stories were too old and vague so nobody remembered them, but here they are now.")

Where are Xerneas and Yveltal typically found?

Who cares? The games never suggest that this is important information in any way.

For what it's worth, I never got the feeling that they stayed in any one place. Team Flare say that they were found hibernating in the forest/mountains, which suggests that they don't stay fixed in those places normally, but rather return to them when it's nap time. And the man in Anistar City mentions that they might've been bouncing around the place during AZ's war, either helping or preying on the wounded.

And... we know very well by now that not all Legendary Pokémon remain fixed in one place, so your automatic assumption (and subsequent condemnation of Game Freak for not gratifying the assumption) that Xerneas/Yveltal do is a bit odd.

Why does Zygarde inhabit Terminus Cave and what is that place's significance?

Who cares? The games never suggest that this is important information in any way.

Why does it need to be significant? Can it not just be a cozy cave? Why did Mewtwo go to Cerulean Cave? Why is Moltres in Victory Road? What's the "significance" of the Flower Paradise other than being remote? Why do the Musketeers dwell in the caves they dwell in?

why does its flower look like the Ultimate Weapon?

You've got it the wrong way 'round. The weapon was created after Floette died, and Floette was using that flower during the war. AZ pretty clearly built the weapon in Floette's image. I don't really know why you're trying to force this into being a plot hole, when it is plainly visible that Floette's flower existed before the weapon:

Spoiler

What makes that Floette special? I don't know, but the specifics aren't really a big deal. Some Pokémon are just unique. Nobody's fussing about Cosplay Pikachu's tail.

 

[Silktree]

Kalos' story is a mess more than anything. I honestly have a hard time seeing how they could have fixed that in another game.

SM's story, on the other hand, is fairly complete as far as Alola is concerned (Lillie's story potential lies in Kanto). I suspect that they're going to botch it up. The mascots basically scream "expect something more complex, but not better".

Region-wise, Kalos and Alola are roughly the same size. If Kalos was fine for Game Freak, then Alola doesn't need an expansion via unused locations, either.

 

[Kallyle]

The "expansion" of Zygarde's role is the revelation that it is divided into Cells, and that these Cells cooperate in order to monitor the environment, and defend it by taking on increasingly more powerful forms. If you'll remember, all that XY said was that Zygarde monitors the environment and "reveals its secret power" when things get bad. SM build on that by revealing the unique mechanism of its "secret power." And clearly, a game needn't be set in Kalos in order to illustrate this, nor does a plot need be centered around Zygarde (arguably, it works better if it isn't).

I'll agree with you on the fact that Zygarde didn't need its own game to demonstrate this. However, just seeing the Cells and Core scattered around Alola doesn't really tell us much. We know how, but we don't know why it is even in Alola. Even just a few sentences to clarify that it's due to the Ultra Beasts after you're done collecting all the Cores and Cells would have been better than what we got in the end. Perhaps Sina and Dexio could have given us a hypothesis at the end that Zygarde isn't related to Kalos, but rather the ecosystem itself. Heck, I'd settle for an optional cutscene tying in the Zygarde quest with the Ultra Beast quest having it butting heads with Guzzlord (having certain Pokémon in your party triggering some sort of event has been done before).

It's just the fact that GF made the whole Zygarde thing open ended that bugs me, not the fact that it isn't explicitly tied to Kalos. There's only so much context clues can fill in, and it seems that's all Zygarde relies on. I'd hate for that to happen with future legendaries and games.

They aren't. We know this. They already said in XY that most records of Kalos's Legendary Pokémon are super-old and unhelpfully vague because of Xerneas/Yveltal's nap cycle. Again, if you find this explanation unsatisfying, then that's your prerogative, but they did cover it one way or the other.

So Zygarde doesn't have to do jack about them but every 1000 years maybe, assuming they even go off-rails during that period. And when they're sleeping, Zygarde hangs about in its cave like most Legendary Pokémon and keeps an eye on the rest of the ecosystem. Some miners in Terminus Cave obviously bothered it at some point and thought it was a scary monster, which as far as significance to the region's history goes, is more-or-less where Kyurem was as of BW, and actually more than Giratina or Rayquaza by where they were at in DP and RS. (Which is ironic, seeing as those two were crowbarred into their own respective regions' histories essentially by saying, "lol, the stories were too old and vague so nobody remembered them, but here they are now.")

I can honestly see your point with this. The fact that Xerneas and Yveltal sleep a lot probably means that they aren't well known about in the eyes of the Kalos region. I'll concede on the fact that they probably aren't a big enough threat for Zygarde to constantly keep them in check. Still, there are other ways that Game Freak could have explained the connection, at least in terms of how Xerneas and Yveltal relate to each other, like revealing a shared origin of their powers. Heck, for all we know, Xerneas and Yveltal could be agents of Zygarde to keep the ecosystem in check for all we know.

What makes that Floette special? I don't know, but the specifics aren't really a big deal. Some Pokémon are just unique. Nobody's fussing about Cosplay Pikachu's tail.

I think it has to do with the fact that AZ's Floette has its own unique stat distribution programmed in, as well as the signature Light of Ruin which can actually be mentioned as one of the move choices in the one hotel side-quest in Lumiose City (not to mention this move is still in SM's coding, complete with it's own Z-Move base power conversion). If it weren't for that one move being mentioned in-game or having a unique stat distribution programmed in, a lot less people would be complaining/talking about AZ's Floette.

 

[Esserise]

I'll agree with you on the fact that Zygarde didn't need its own game to demonstrate this. However, just seeing the Cells and Core scattered around Alola doesn't really tell us much. We know how, but we don't know why it is even in Alola. Even just a few sentences to clarify that it's due to the Ultra Beasts after you're done collecting all the Cores and Cells would have been better than what we got in the end. Perhaps Sina and Dexio could have given us a hypothesis at the end that Zygarde isn't related to Kalos, but rather the ecosystem itself.

Sure, but that's not the issue I was responding to. What I was saying is that we did get our traditional elaboration on what exactly is up with the third mascot; we learned what Zygarde's "secret power" is and how it works. And from a gameplay perspective, that's more interesting than its narrative role as a Rayquaza knock-off (so instead, we get the PokÉPA, which is at least a bit different). Story-wise, I'd actually agree that it was rather weird of them to explicitly open up the question of why Zygarde was in Alola only to leave it unanswered, although that still doesn't really matter in the long run.

The fact that Xerneas and Yveltal sleep a lot probably means that they aren't well known about in the eyes of the Kalos region.

Not just "probably," it's explicit text in XY. From both an NPC in Coumarine, and later on, Sycamore.

Still, there are other ways that Game Freak could have explained the connection, at least in terms of how Xerneas and Yveltal relate to each other, like revealing a shared origin of their powers. Heck, for all we know, Xerneas and Yveltal could be agents of Zygarde to keep the ecosystem in check for all we know.

I guess, but if I'm honest, I actually rather like that they didn't do this. In my opinion, we have enough Legendary Pokémon that are directly tied to a singular source. I think we could stand to have a few more Lugia/Ho-Oh or Xerneas/Yveltal(/Zygarde) relationships that are a bit more loosely connected.

I think it has to do with the fact that AZ's Floette has its own unique stat distribution programmed in, as well as the signature Light of Ruin which can actually be mentioned as one of the move choices in the one hotel side-quest in Lumiose City (not to mention this move is still in SM's coding, complete with it's own Z-Move base power conversion). If it weren't for that one move being mentioned in-game or having a unique stat distribution programmed in, a lot less people would be complaining/talking about AZ's Floette.

Actually, if it weren't for the hackers, there's be a lot less people complaining/talking about AZ's Floette. Remember that it's not something we're actually supposed to know about. I'd guess that Light of Ruin being mentioned in the Hotel Richissime slipped by them unintentionally.

 

[PurplePopplio]

Just when you think that you're done with Kalos, it keeps dragging you back in.

 

[godiego]

(not to mention this move is still in SM's coding, complete with it's own Z-Move base power conversion).

Game Freak doesn't remove things from their code the vast majority of the time. there's garbo you can't even possibly obtain in SM period still in it

Just when you think that you're done with Kalos, it keeps dragging you back in.

more like some people can't let go

 

[Muur]

The 3DS came barley manage to hold Alola

Plus our trainer randomly going from Hawaii to France would be weird. Unova would make more sense cuz 'murica

 

[Hidden Mew]

I can't see them including another region in the games. If they did, it would more likely be Kanto given how often it was mentioned during Sun/Moon. I thought that they were leading into new Kanto games with Lillie heading there at the end of Sun/Moon, which I would have been fine with if it meant we got to see Lillie again and maybe battled her, but I don't think that they'd do that. As cool as it would be to go to another region, I'd prefer it if they use that space to expand on Alola instead. I would rather see one large fleshed out region than trying to squeeze in a second one.

Plus, I honestly don't think that we need to go back to Kalos. Going through an expanded Kalos sounds cool, but X/Y didn't really feel incomplete to me simply because we didn't get another game set in the region. There weren't a lot of loose ends to the storyline and the ending didn't really leave itself open to sequels, or at least I didn't think that it did. Most of the mysteries people have mentioned before always seemed too minor to really warrant another game. Admittedly, they probably could have at least explained why Zygarde was in Alola, as they did introduce that question in Sun/Moon, but I don't think that was a big deal either.

 

[Silktree]

The "no real mysteries" argument extends to Alola, too. Just saying.

They could have used Necrozma in another region much like Zygarde.

 

[Aulos]

... As cool as it would be to go to another region, I'd prefer it if they use that space to expand on Alola instead. I would rather see one large fleshed out region than trying to squeeze in a second one.

But that's the thing, pretty much all of the space in Alola is already used. I'm not really seeing how they can really flesh out the region. Exploring a second region (any of them, really) would be much more exciting and would make me actually want the games instantly.

Not saying it's going to happen, not even saying that there's even the smallest chance of it happening, just that it would make these games much more exciting than they are presently shaping up to be. Although I will say that Sun/Moon really did make Kanto being in the post-game reasonable by kind of teasing it. I hate all of the Generation I pandering, but seeing Kanto reimagined would be more exciting than just exploring Alola again, I have to admit.

 

[Bolt Strike]

They did expand on Zygarde's lore, you're just not looking at it from the right angle. There's not any big mythical event in Kalos's past that involves Zygarde like, say, the brothers' conflict in Unova. Kalos's history is all about the war, and Mega Evolution. Could Game Freak have somewhere included an expository paragraph about this one time that Xerneas and Yveltal got out of control and Zygarde was forced to intervene and stop them? Yes, but then, yawn. How derivative.

The "expansion" of Zygarde's role is the revelation that it is divided into Cells, and that these Cells cooperate in order to monitor the environment, and defend it by taking on increasingly more powerful forms. If you'll remember, all that XY said was that Zygarde monitors the environment and "reveals its secret power" when things get bad. SM build on that by revealing the unique mechanism of its "secret power." And clearly, a game needn't be set in Kalos in order to illustrate this, nor does a plot need be centered around Zygarde (arguably, it works better if it isn't).

If you don't like that detail, then that's your view, but we undeniably went from a point of knowing only a sentence's worth of detail about Zygarde's behavior, to having an entire unique mechanic and two extra forms to demonstrate it. Zygarde didn't really get shortchanged in any way that actually matters.

Mechanics and lore aren't exactly the same thing, one relates to gameplay significance and the other relates to storyline significance. They really need to give it both gameplay significance AND storyline significance because different people like different aspects about legendaries. Giving Zygarde a unique mechanic is great, but it only appeals to one aspect of Zygarde. There are plenty of people that would've have (and still do) want to see Zygarde to play a major role in the game's plot instead of being some bonus legendary that doesn't involve itself in any major way. And yes, they technically can do that anywhere but Kalos is the best place to do this since it's the region it was introduced in and its the same region that its counterparts are mascots of.

Because it is a completely effortless and unrewarding exercise write this story. If one or both of them gets out of hand, Zygarde tells them to pipe down. Zygarde's connection to Xerneas and Yveltal is a narrative dry well that inevitably ends with them plagiarizing Rayquaza. At least by tossing Zygarde into SM, they can still do something functionally unique with it while at the same time developing a different Legendary Pokémon plot that isn't just a hollow rehash of Emerald.

You mean like how Necrozma is a rehash of Kyurem?

Mysteries that aren't ever actually presented as mysteries, or as things to be resolved. You're just fixating on trivial details.

First of all, trivial is subjective. Second, just because they're not presented as mysteries doesn't mean they aren't. All of these elements are either unanswered questions or storyline elements that are too shallow and have been expanded on with past legendaries.

Not anything to do with XY (it like, wasn't even mentioned in those games...); ORAS state, in plain text, that Project AZOTH is the formal name for Team Magma/Aqua's plan to awaken Groudon/Kyogre.

Yes it does. Project AZOTH was started based on research on Mega Evolution and the Ultimate Weapon, that's what connects it to XY. And there's still the unanswered question of what O, T, and H are short for, which is something another Kalos game could answer.

At least with Necrozma right now, there's not an immediately clear answer as to how it relates to Solgaleo and Lunala.

Does there need to be? It's another fusion, by your logic anything else surrounding it shouldn't be significant either.

They aren't. We know this. They already said in XY that most records of Kalos's Legendary Pokémon are super-old and unhelpfully vague because of Xerneas/Yveltal's nap cycle. Again, if you find this explanation unsatisfying, then that's your prerogative, but they did cover it one way or the other.

Thing is that this defeats half of the point of legendaries, they're meant to be hyped up legendaries that represent the game they're associated with, it's only logical to expect them to have a major role in the storyline.

So Zygarde doesn't have to do jack about them but every 1000 years maybe, assuming they even go off-rails during that period. And when they're sleeping, Zygarde hangs about in its cave like most Legendary Pokémon and keeps an eye on the rest of the ecosystem. Some miners in Terminus Cave obviously bothered it at some point and thought it was a scary monster, which as far as significance to the region's history goes, is more-or-less where Kyurem was as of BW, and actually more than Giratina or Rayquaza by where they were at in DP and RS. (Which is ironic, seeing as those two were crowbarred into their own respective regions' histories essentially by saying, "lol, the stories were too old and vague so nobody remembered them, but here they are now.")

Except Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem all got more than that with additional games that elaborated on their connection to the region and the other mascots. Zygarde did not and instead was shoehorned into a completely different region with no added lore.

For what it's worth, I never got the feeling that they stayed in any one place. Team Flare say that they were found hibernating in the forest/mountains, which suggests that they don't stay fixed in those places normally, but rather return to them when it's nap time. And the man in Anistar City mentions that they might've been bouncing around the place during AZ's war, either helping or preying on the wounded.

And... we know very well by now that not all Legendary Pokémon remain fixed in one place, so your automatic assumption (and subsequent condemnation of Game Freak for not gratifying the assumption) that Xerneas/Yveltal do is a bit odd.

Again, they're mascot legends. They're supposed to have special significance to the region's lore and major emphasis in the storyline, and having a special location for them to inhabit is part of that.

Why does it need to be significant? Can it not just be a cozy cave? Why did Mewtwo go to Cerulean Cave? Why is Moltres in Victory Road? What's the "significance" of the Flower Paradise other than being remote? Why do the Musketeers dwell in the caves they dwell in?

Now that we know Zygarde's true nature, this is actually even more of a mystery. We found Zygarde's 50% form there in XY, why would half of the Cells congregate there? What's so special about that place that we would find such an advanced form of Zygarde instead of the Cells being spread around Kalos like they were Alola? That especially implies that there must be some kind of special significance to Terminus Cave that would draw Cells there.

You've got it the wrong way 'round. The weapon was created after Floette died, and Floette was using that flower during the war. AZ pretty clearly built the weapon in Floette's image. I don't really know why you're trying to force this into being a plot hole, when it is plainly visible that Floette's flower existed before the weapon:

Spoiler

What makes that Floette special? I don't know, but the specifics aren't really a big deal. Some Pokémon are just unique. Nobody's fussing about Cosplay Pikachu's tail.

Chicken or egg. It doesn't really matter which came first, what matters is that Eternal Flower Floette has a unique flower that can't be found anywhere else in Kalos and has a very specific design that the Ultimate Weapon also shares (as opposed to the other Floette flowers, which are all plain colors). Again, this implies a significance behind that flower. What is that flower, what does it signify, and why is AZ's Floette the only one we encounter that has it?

 

[Hidden Mew]

But that's the thing, pretty much all of the space in Alola is already used. I'm not really seeing how they can really flesh out the region. Exploring a second region (any of them, really) would be much more exciting and would make me actually want the games instantly.

Not saying it's going to happen, not even saying that there's even the smallest chance of it happening, just that it would make these games much more exciting than they are presently shaping up to be. Although I will say that Sun/Moon really did make Kanto being in the post-game reasonable by kind of teasing it. I hate all of the Generation I pandering, but seeing Kanto reimagined would be more exciting than just exploring Alola again, I have to admit.

I was thinking that they could make the islands bigger or even add more of them into Alola. That would expand on the region while also making use of the alternate storyline concept potentially. I don't know if it's too likely for them to do that and I wouldn't be too surprised if that doesn't happen, but that was one of my ideas when they were labeled as an alternate storyline to Sun/Moon.

Kanto reimagined years after the second generation would certainly be interesting. I just think that would better serve as the main focus of its own game instead of included in US/UM. I wouldn't be against something like that happening in US/UM. That would really help with post-storyline content if we traveled through Kanto for some other storyline and battling in Gyms along the way, but I don't know if I'd really want that for US/UM. That could benefit more from being the main setting of another game than the post-Elite 4 content of another set of games.

 

[SerenaToAlola]

Plus our trainer randomly going from Hawaii to France would be weird. Unova would make more sense cuz 'murica

Exactly. I think Kalos deserves it's own third game if anything. The only connection between Kalos and Alola is I guess Zygarde and the Z in Z-crystals?

 

[Lufenium]

NO.

I do not understand the obsession with wanting a past region in the post-game.

 

[Aulos]

NO.

I do not understand the obsession with wanting a past region in the post-game.

In this case it's because another trip through Alola likely isn't going to get me excited enough to want Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon. An old region reimagined with the new graphical capabilities as well as seeing them in the future as opposed to the last game would be exciting. Much more exciting than just playing another game of solely Alola.

 

[Lufenium]

An old region reimagined with the new graphical capabilities as well as seeing them in the future as opposed to the last game would be exciting.

That's what remakes are for. Two regions in one game is difficult to balance.

 

[Aulos]

That's what remakes are for. Two regions in one game is difficult to balance.

Well, Gamefreak chose these presumably rehashes over D/P remakes (for now), but the price tag still doesn't change. I already spent $40 on Sun. Ultra Sun needs to do something substantial to justify spending $40 again.