Baltimore Riots

[Dorothy]

So, there are riots going on in Baltimore as a result of the police's handling of the death of Freddie Gray, who died in custody having a severed spine and other injuries. The police report of Gray's death says that he was taken in peacefully, but eyewitness accounts contradict this, alleging that the police used excessive force in taking Gray in.

Here's a quick timeline of events so far. Things aren't looking too hot over there.

 

[Toviah]

I'd like to preface this and say that I won't cite my sources in this and future posts regarding Baltimore. The videos and statements and events are easily found on Google and Youtube. I will not also discuss what my skin color is, whether it be white, black, purple or green.

I've been watching this pretty closely and the mayor has dropped the ball and dropped the ball hard. Didn't it take her five hours or so to request National Guard assistance from the state of Maryland? She also found it acceptable to allow a place for the protestors to riot as long as it was contained but later retracted the statement. There's nothing acceptable about the behavior, whether it's contained or not. If you give an inch, a mile will be taken.

What bothers me the most though is the violence against white people. White businesses are being trashed for just being owned by white people. White protestors are being attacked and robbed for simply being white. On CNN, a group of teenagers were chanting about how they want to "kill whitey". We also saw this in Ferguson MO during those riots. I was watching a live feed and people were defending businesses in the middle of riots and stating whether or not they're "black owned". This behavior is concerning because it shows that racial tension in America is still there and hasn't gone away. It's getting violent and this is playing right into the hands of white supremacists. It's almost as if the media is doing all it can do to start a race war. :\

I feel that if Martin Luther King Jr. was still alive that America would be in a much, much better place.

 

[Jersey Jimmy]

I saw a video of a man dancing to Michael Jackson's "Beat It" in the middle of the riot. It sounds random, but what are the lyrics about? Well, the message of "Beat It" is, simply put, fighting is bad. So props to that guy.

 

[zoroarctic]

This has been boiling over in Baltimore for years. I'm honestly surprised it took this long to happen.

 

[Osprey]

Tch. These people went on a rampage that had little to nothing to do with the man who was killed. I don't care whether this started out as a relevant protest or not. The point is that this managed to escalate into a lot of senseless violence. What will burning stores to the ground will accomplish? How will stealing chips and candy from drug stores "honor" the memory of Gray? Tell me how this mob's smashing random cars and attacking random bystanders is going to do ANYTHING besides toss a spectacular display of stuff that MAKES negative stereotypes straight into national spotlight.

The rioters don't give a damn about their "cause". They just wanted to band together and smash sh-t up and scream "f-ck the police". Even Gray's family stated this was exactly what they DIDN'T want to happen. And if you want to argue that these ARE protests... tell me, what will living up to the negative stereotype as violent thugs and looters do for their cause, aside from justifying the assumption further?

 

[Garren]

That's why they're doing this though, because they feel that everyone instantly views them under those stereotypes (and no, it does NOT justify them) as it is and this is the only option they have left. When they "behave", they're punished. When they act out, they're punished. I think for many black people in America, especially those who live in areas such as Baltimore, they feel like there's no hope.

You see, unlike Toviah, a completely sniveling coward, I'll admit that I'm white instead of trying to hide my race to try and come off as a completely objective overseer above it all. And as a white person, I live with the assumption that when I behave badly, I don't have to worry about "confirming a stereotype", or hurting the reputation of another white guy miles away from me. But that's not a privilege black people have, and that's inherently wrong, unfair, and unjust. If you say that these events only "reinforce the stereotypes", or even worse, say they "justify them", you're wrong, and you're being racist in that claim.

Now you'll probably go "b-but what about blaming all the police for actions of other officers?!", and the answer is unlike being black, being a police officer is a choice, and it is a specific institution with rules and regulations that are taught to all of its members, and reinforced. And that institution, many feel, is corrupt at its core. If someone purposefully sides with that institution despite all evidence that it is in the wrong, and there is a lot of evidence stacking up against it lately, than they in all fairness can be seen as supporting that institution and excusing its actions.

 

[Saucedo]

I don't see why people are blaming the police, I guess they are an easy target, if criminals commit crimes its not the criminals fault, its somehow societys fault.

Some people just want to do bad things and break laws. The people rioting probably have little to no care about the victim, they just look for an excuse to live out their fantasies of rampage and destruction.

The police need to have a tough response, arrest and send to jail anyone caught rioting so they learn they can't break the law even if they do so in large numbers. In the UK when we had riots, police were called in from all across the country to deal with it, and it worked.

Also people trying to make it about race is just pathetic. If you commit a crime you deserve to be arrested. People come out with statistics about well this demographic is more likely to get arrested than this one, as if there was some sort of quota, "sorry you can only have 10% of your arrests be from this demographic 15% from this one etc."

 

[Osprey]

That's why they're doing this though, because they feel that everyone instantly views them under those stereotypes (and no, it does NOT justify them) as it is and this is the only option they have left. When they "behave", they're punished. When they act out, they're punished. I think for many black people in America, especially those who live in areas such as Baltimore, they feel like there's no hope.

You see, unlike Toviah, a completely sniveling coward, I'll admit that I'm white instead of trying to hide my race to try and come off as a completely objective overseer above it all. And as a white person, I live with the assumption that when I behave badly, I don't have to worry about "confirming a stereotype", or hurting the reputation of another white guy miles away from me. But that's not a privilege black people have, and that's inherently wrong, unfair, and unjust. If you say that these events only "reinforce the stereotypes", or even worse, say they "justify them", you're wrong, and you're being racist in that claim.

Now you'll probably go "b-but what about blaming all the police for actions of other officers?!", and the answer is unlike being black, being a police officer is a choice, and it is a specific institution with rules and regulations that are taught to all of its members, and reinforced. And that institution, many feel, is corrupt at its core. If someone purposefully sides with that institution despite all evidence that it is in the wrong, and there is a lot of evidence stacking up against it lately, than they in all fairness can be seen as supporting that institution and excusing its actions.

Okay, first, there's no need to be going all ad hominum and calling people "sniveling cowards." Second of all, I'm not one who holds those kinds of stereotypes. However, denying that there are people out there who do think that way is just lying to yourself. What these riots are doing is showcasing a part of town at its very worst, and that does nothing to change a prejudiced person's mind. It's like... say that someone assumes that you're a mean person for whatever reason, even if you're not. What do you do to prove them wrong? Act like a jerk around them? No, you act in a way that will disprove their claims about you. If the rioters are so upset about being labeled as thugs, maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't ACT like thugs. Their behavior is not doing themselves any favors, and while it may not be a choice to be black, it is a choice to be a degenerate.

 

[Lysson]

In the recent London riots and the riots that then went across the UK most of the looters and rioters weren't there because they cared about the cause. They saw it as an opportunity to be violent and thought people around them would accept it. I'd say the same thing for the rioters currently; the ones rioting are not protesters, they're criminals.

Violence doesn't solve this problem, bae MLK has said it countless times and MLK is my most admired historical figure. The true protesters are ones campaigning for peace and equality for all races, and this includes whites because if we villainize them then that's just racist and we're supposed to be fighting racism.

All race stereotypes are BS and I have no clue where people have pulled them out of. Probably the same place they pulled sexism out of.

 

[Fig]

ATTENTION PLEASE

First off, as others in this thread have already noted, you do not resort to ad hominem attacks against your fellow posters. Period, ever.

HOWEVER, as we've explained in the past, we believe ad hominem go beyond name calling your direct opponents in the debate. We believe that sweeping generalization that attack them or the people they care about (eg, "the people rioting are just bad people who want to break the law") are just as much ad hominem as calling someone a sniveling coward.

You can certainly say that there are bad people just wanting to break the law involved in the riots. But dismissing the entire movement, or attacking everyone involved, will be considered as flaming and baiting too.

If you see a post that you consider flaming and baiting, report it, don't reply to it.

 

[Garren]

Hey, if someone is gonna pull the "I won't say what my race is!" bullshit, and then turn the whole discussion into focusing on how this is specifically hurting white people (without actually providing a source, and actually even saying they aren't gonna source any claim they make), well, I think calling them a sniveling coward is pretty much the appropriate response.

And then to even add in the "if only Martin Luther King!" was here at the end of your post---if he was still alive he'd probably consider you a coward too because you're the type of person who values the status quo over actually addressing injustice. MLK realize why people resorted to rioting, because peaceful protests often didn't work---it only ended in the protesters being attacked and jailed. If you're gonna get jailed for peaceful protesting, well, then you can imagine why people might want to riot. Make them actually have something to jail you over.

 

[Osprey]

Hey, if someone is gonna pull the "I won't say what my race is!" bullshit, and then turn the whole discussion into focusing on how this is specifically hurting white people (without actually providing a source, and actually even saying they aren't gonna source any claim they make), well, I think calling them a sniveling coward is pretty much the appropriate response.

And then to even add in the "if only Martin Luther King!" was here at the end of your post---if he was still alive he'd probably consider you a coward too because you're the type of person who values the status quo over actually addressing injustice. MLK realize why people resorted to rioting, because peaceful protests often didn't work---it only ended in the protesters being attacked and jailed. If you're gonna get jailed for peaceful protesting, well, then you can imagine why people might want to riot. Make them actually have something to jail you over.

Here is a source. I'm not claiming that only white people were targeted here. Of course they weren't exclusive to the violence. What I'm bothered by is that random civilians are getting attacked and robbed here. Random people who had nothing to do with this are getting dragged into this mess.

You mentioned that "MLK realized why people resorted to rioting." Understanding the underlying cause of rioting does not mean one advocates it. Martin Luther King Jr.'s central theme of his protests was nonviolence; he knew what would make a more powerful statement of injustice. To an outsider looking in, watching a police force beating and arresting a group of peaceful people is going to spark more outrage than a group of police chasing down arsonists and drug store thieves.

By using nonviolent methods, they were able to highlight the brutality and cruelty they were facing. They wanted to make a statement: we are oppressed like this for no reason, and they were able to get their point across quite clearly. Given that the most change happened in the wake of those peaceful movements, I'd say that they did work. I seriously doubt that the civil rights movement would have made any kind of progress if it resorted to tactics like the ones on display in Baltimore.

 

[Toviah]

Hey, if someone is gonna pull the "I won't say what my race is!" bullshit, and then turn the whole discussion into focusing on how this is specifically hurting white people (without actually providing a source, and actually even saying they aren't gonna source any claim they make), well, I think calling them a sniveling coward is pretty much the appropriate response.

And then to even add in the "if only Martin Luther King!" was here at the end of your post---if he was still alive he'd probably consider you a coward too because you're the type of person who values the status quo over actually addressing injustice. MLK realize why people resorted to rioting, because peaceful protests often didn't work---it only ended in the protesters being attacked and jailed. If you're gonna get jailed for peaceful protesting, well, then you can imagine why people might want to riot. Make them actually have something to jail you over.

Uh oh.

I didn't cite my sources because this isn't a university assignment, it's a post on a Pokemon forum. My "argument", that is if I even have one, doesn't need to be air tight and solid because, like I said, this is simply a post on an internet forum. The way things are headed, I can see you chastising me for my comma splices. This also isn't a debate, or atleast I wasn't trying to cause one. This thread was simply for the discussion of what happened.

There's also something wrong with your assumption that I'm white for observing crime motivated by the color of someone's skin. I stated in my original post that I won't discuss my skin color and I won't address it now. What I will address is the fact that I'm able to make observations without skin color becoming a factor. This is something that you need to learn as well. Being concerned that people are being violently attacked because of their color of their skin isn't protecting the status quo, but the way you word things, it makes it sound like violence against the status quo is justified.

Dr. King would never call me a coward because I would be right at his side, marching with him and demanding justice and freedom for the black community. While he observed that riots were a product of African Americans being unheard, he never, ever advocated them. He also never advocated the use of violent riots because of African Americans being arrested for peaceful, civil disobedience. The entire Baltimore riots goes against everything that Dr. King preached. I wonder what he would say about you and your views. You, and everyone in general should watch this video to show what Dr. King stood for and what his position would be on the Baltimore riots.

I wish you well and I hope this post opens your eyes a bit, and I mean that sincerely.

 

[Garren]

@BlackOsprey

Not true. While there were changes brought about by peaceful protests, violent ones did indeed bring about change, such as the similar 1992 Los Angeles riots done for similar reasons which did result in change to various factors that led to police brutality and minority oppression. And throughout history there have been times when violent protests did lead to change. I'd imagine if you tallied it up, violent would easily beat out peaceful. That's not something we as a human race should be proud of, but we also shouldn't be proud of the reasons these riots often begin and instantly side with the side being rioted against.

Anyway, you make it a point to say how civilians are being harmed---but the rioters are civilians as well, and they feel they've been harmed and oppressed due to police brutality, and other socio-economic issues that leave them with very little options. A large number of Baltimore---the black populace mainly---live below the poverty line. And to them, well, this is one of the few times people will pay attention to their plight. A majority of the white civilians people are focusing on and showing the most concern for, and I'm white saying this, well, they'll probably be okay. After the riots are over, things will get better for them, and I imagine they'll more or less be back on their feet in a year or so. But for many of the protesters, and the rioters, it won't...if they didn't riot, they'd suffer the most, if they riot, they still suffer the most.

This might not lead to positive change. It might make things worse. I just think it's not that helpful to just reduce this to "rioters bad!" and leave it at that. I think everyone has had a time in their life when they've felt helpless, and just acted out in a way that isn't considered "positive"...like punching a wall, or just letting out a scream. Now imagine you're pretty much feeling that way all the time, and everyone around you feels the exact same way, and every freak-out you have is recorded, scrutinized, and considered an inherent trait of your race. Is it that hard to understand the mindset behind what they're doing to an extent?


ADMINISTRATOR EDIT: No. You do NOT edit in more attacks after I just posted to tell you to stop the attack.

 

[Fig]

Toviah, Garren, one more hostile post from either of you and I am taking away your access to this thread. Be civil to each other (and that include discussing the rioters in a respectful manner), or stay out. BlackOsprey, this also applies to you.

Seriously, WHICH part of my previous post did you guys miss?

Just because you're on a Pokemon Forum, that doesn't mean you can make a generalization like that without providing a source.

Actually, since there is no rule of the forum about needing to post sources, yeah, it does mean that.

YOU do not make the rules for discussion here.

 

[Garren]

I mean, I'm not trying to dictate the forum rules or anything...

But, I mean, given the nature of this topic discussing an issue that involves the lives of real people, not to mention is naturally a heated topic ripe for stereotypes and frenzied claims, don't you think it'd be good to see some sources if you're gonna make a claim such as the one Toviah did?

And don't you think it's not exactly forum etiquette to dismiss criticism of a post making a statement about a group of people by using the "it's a Pokemon Forum!" defense? That's pretty much 101 when it comes to deflecting criticism by trying to act like there's some sort of cap on the level of discourse we can have simply based on what the forum overall is dedicated to.

Why did you completely edit out my response to Toviah? It's true I edited it, but I edited it to respond to Toviah who posted right after I responded to Osprey. I hadn't seen your post.

And even then, I think I made some fair points and I'm disappointed in your just deleting everything I said in response to him like that.

 

[Fig]

Oh, and (posting separate because this one is personal opinion), but you can all stop hiding behind MLK's skirts about now. None of you have any clue (neither do I) how MLK would feel about the current situation in the US, because you're not MLK (obviously), and because what you know of MLK is what popular history says of him. (not that real history would be all that better). It's a distorted image made of soundbytes and talking points, not the real individual. There is no way for any of us to tell how MLK would feel about what progress has been made, and NOT been made, and how he would feel about the current situation.

So own up to your own opinion, and post what YOU think. Don't argue over what MLK would do.

 

[Garren]

I mean, I pretty much just said that at the end of my post before you edited it out, but okay.

 

[Fig]

Yeah, but the rest of that post was busily ignoring the rest of what I said, so no.

(If you have further questions about that, please PM them to me)

 

[aquadrop]

I agree.. we can't really speak for MLK...

I've seen lots of pictures of the riots... and a lot of stuff went through my head.

Firstly... Why are people focusing on the riots? Like, we all know that destroying people's property is wrong, and the family didn't intend for the peaceful protest to turn into something ugly. So instead of arguing about a side effect of the problem... news channels need to start discussing the 'root' of the problem. Ya know, the fact that black people are unequally viewed and stereotyped as criminals by many police officers, and to be honest, even by non-black people. Instead, channels are just showing the ugly side of the protest. Racism is real and not gone, and until the root of the problem gets addressed, more and more protests and riots will keep happening and escalating because people get fed up. Step up your game.

Oh, and it would help to give more sensitivity training and anger management training to police officers... Good lord. Beating someone up and killing them WHILE they're in your custody? WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL IS WRONG WITH THOSE OFFICERS?! I want video footage of the inside of that room... that's just disgusting.

I'm so sorry... I just had to sort of mini rant about this somewhere. XD