Bashing the Older Generations

[Ivysaur]

Staff Note: Remember to keep discussions and debates civil. Flaming and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

 

[Team Gaara]

The complaining about the Trash Bag and the Ice Cream Cone was part of the larger "Hard Reboot" complaint. Older fans thought there were too many new Pokémon and that too many of them were obvious expies, and they really just wanted to use their old favorites again.

Please explain. Which Pokemon of Gen 5 fit this bill, because I've never heard this before?

 

[BettyN]

Please explain. Which Pokemon of Gen 5 fit this bill, because I've never heard this before?

You haven't?

*Sigh*

Victini = Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, and the rest of the cute, rare 600 BST Legendaries
Tepig Line = Torchic and Chimchar Lines (Fire/Fighting starters)
Patrat Line = Rattata, Sentret, Zigzagoon, and Bidoof Lines (Vendor Trash Normal Types)
Purrloin Line = Meowth, Skitty, and Glameow Lines (weak cat Pokémon)
Munna Line = Drowzee Line (slow, bulky Psychic Types who eat dreams and are based on anteaters)
Pidove Line = Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, and the other early Normal/Flying birds
Roggenrola Line = Geodude Line (three-stage Rock Types who infest caves, explode, and are trade evos)
Woobat Line = Zubat Line (bats who infest caves and evolve through friendship)
Audino = Chansey Line (pink Normal Type nurse Pokémon who give out lots of Exp.)
Timburr Line = Machop Line (three-stage Fighting Types who are 75% male and are trade evos)
Tympole Line = Poliwag Line (three-stage, blue-colored frog Pokémon)
Throh and Sawk = Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, and Hitmontop (male-only Fighting Type counterparts)
Maractus = Cacnea Line (green cactus Pokémon)
Dwebble Line = Paras Line (Bug Types who look like crabs)
Sigilyph = Xatu (heavily-decorated Psychic/Flying Types with so-so stats)
Archen Line = Aerodactyl (fast and frail Flying Type fossils)
Trubbish Line = Grimer and Koffing Lines (two-stage mono-Poison Types based on pollution)
Zorua Line = Riolu Line ("mysterious" and heavily-marketable mammalian Pokémon who are 87.5% male and are given to you as a gift)
Gothita Line = Smoochum Line (creepy purple-faced feminine Psychic Types with so-so stats)
Emolga = Pikachu and all of its obnoxiously cute clones
Foongus Line = Shroomish Line (Grass Type mushrooms who can learn Spore)
Frillish Line = Tentacool Line (annoying two-stage jellyfish)
Alomomola = Luvdisc (single-stage pink heart-shaped fish with bad stats)
Ferroseed Line = Pineco Line (just replace "Bug" with "Grass")
Klink Line = Magnemite Line (three-stage Steel Types based on mechanical objects)
Cubchoo Line = Teddiursa Line (just replace "Normal" with "Ice")
Bouffalant = Tauros (just add an afro)

Please, let me know if I've missed any.

 

[Team Gaara]

You haven't?

*Sigh*

*insert list here*

Please, let me know if I've missed any.

Okay, sorry, but I'm just not buying that. Most Pokemon, then, in that case could fit that description of just being a copy of an older or already existing Pokemon, not just Gen 5 Pokemon, as plenty of them are based on similar concepts. For example, obviously we're going to have a Pikaclone, a Mew clone, a regional bird, a cat Pokemon, and an early route rodent, so why include them on the list? Others you've included on the list just feel plain forced, like: Cubchoo, Audino, Roggenrola, Archen, Frillish, Ferroseed, Sigilyph, Foongus, Alomomola, Tepig, Bouffalant, and Gothita.

All of these Pokemon are different enough from the ones you've compared them to to not be labeled an obvious copy, or they were meant to serve as Unova's counterpart to every other region's similar Pokemon (rodent, bird, etc.), so of course they were going to be similar.

 

[Sakuraa]

All generations are bashed, all are criticized, all are praised. I'm not sure why some people (not just this thread and the gen 4/5 one) feel like only certain generations are bashed. Hell, I've seen a bunch of gen 6 bashing since the games came out. I see gen 5 being bashed constantly. I've seen bashing for each and every generation. What do I do when I see someone bash the gens I like? Ignore it at move on, since those are their opinions. In fact, I just do what the OP's final statement said. "Just ignore the ones you don't like and focus on your favorites. Not hard at all."

 

[BettyN]

Okay, sorry, but I'm just not buying that. Most Pokemon, then, in that case could fit that description of just being a copy of an older or already existing Pokemon, not just Gen 5 Pokemon, as plenty of them are based on similar concepts. For example, obviously we're going to have a Pikaclone, a Mew clone, a regional bird, a cat Pokemon, and an early route rodent, so why include them on the list? Others you've included on the list just feel plain forced, like: Cubchoo, Audino, Roggenrola, Archen, Frillish, Ferroseed, Sigilyph, Foongus, Alomomola, Tepig, Bouffalant, and Gothita.

All of these Pokemon are different enough from the ones you've compared them to to not be labeled an obvious copy, or they were meant to serve as Unova's counterpart to every other region's similar Pokemon (rodent, bird, etc.), so of course they were going to be similar.

I'm just reiterating what other people at other sites have said. You can Google it if you want. Don't shoot the messenger.

And, I'm not exactly fond of the idea of having "regional" birds and rodents to begin with. New Pokémon should build upon previous Generations, not copy them.

 

[glow]

Eh, the internet's filled with vitriol in regards to most subjects so whenever I see something I like being attacked I just accept it as part of the territory and ignore it. Not worth the time.

 

[BettyN]

Eh, the internet's filled with vitriol in regards to most subjects so whenever I see something I like being attacked I just accept it as part of the territory and ignore it. Not worth the time.

That's because way too many people hide behind anonymity to say things that they would never say in real life.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

Pokemon is Pokemon, no matter how glitchy, old, terrible, new, or plain a game is. At the end of the day, X and Y is still a sequel to to Red and Blue. You still go through the same battle mechanics, but the newer gens spice it up a little, like the addition of Steel and Dark, Abilities, Mega Evolution. Still the same. And I love Generation 2,3, and 4 because they all have an aspect that I enjoy about. I don`t like Gen 5, but that doesn`t mean I should go tell people the little flaws it has. You should just accept with what you got. People poke fun at the older generations, yet they still have a Game Boy and a copy of Pokemon Blue. And some people hate the newer gens, but they`re still going to be standing there in line in November to buy a copy of Alpha Sapphire.

 

[Team Gaara]

I'm just reiterating what other people at other sites have said. You can Google it if you want. Don't shoot the messenger.

And, I'm not exactly fond of the idea of having "regional" birds and rodents to begin with. New Pokémon should build upon previous Generations, not copy them.

Sorry, didn't mean to. Just sounds like terrible reasoning for disliking Gen V, but opinions are opinions.

Well, they sort of do. That's why they're all decently different in what they can do and how they do it and why some regional birds/rodents are better than others.

It also makes sense in the larger scheme of things as it relates to the real world.

 

[Luminosity]

There will always be people who take someone disagreeing with them as a personal insult, and as a result they'll insult that person. For Bulbagarden, if someone is derogatory towards you for liking Gen I and II, I'd say just report the post in question, and then let their insult roll off of you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing a generation (or even bashing/ranting about one) as long as the person doing it doesn't delve into personal attacks against those who disagree with them.

 

[Osprey]

Some Pokemon shouldn't even be charged with an "expy" accusation because it's been done so many times, it's practically mandatory. We've always had a first route normal-type rodent, a regional 3-stage bird, and 600-BST cute event legends. I will admit that some certain Unova Pokemon were replacements (Roggenrola family for Geodude), but most of them had enough unique appearance and uses to keep them from appearing to be rip-offs. I certainly don't send in a Zoroark to do a Lucario's job. Also, I'm certain Unova isn't the only region guilty of doing this; it's just more noticeable because of the large amount of Pokemon introduced.

 

[Team Gaara]

...a regional 3-stage bird...

Minus Taillow and Hoothoot.

 

[Osprey]

...a regional 3-stage bird...

Minus Taillow and Hoothoot.

Oh... yeah, guess I forgot about them. Still, it's always avian, always at least starts out as Normal/Flying, and always fairly common at the beginning of the game. But I think you get what I mean.

 

[Team Gaara]

Oh... yeah, guess I forgot about them. Still, it's always avian, always at least starts out as Normal/Flying, and always fairly common at the beginning of the game. But I think you get what I mean.

I would have just simply called them Early Route/Regional Birds, since not all of them are 3-stage. It's not too big of a deal, but since it's more than one than doesn't fit that bill, it didn't really make sense to include the 3-stage part.

 

[Boshi234]

In most fandoms it's normal for fans of a franchise to debate which game, movie, episode or even a music album is good and which is bad for example the fandom of Star Wars talking or should I say typing on the Internet about the old movies from the 70's and 80's and the prequel trilogy like saying that ''Revenge of the Sith destroyed the franchise'' or they might even join and ''attack'' newer projects like The Clone Wars CGI movie and Episode 7 so it's outright common in these groups to ''fight'' and argue about these things.

 

[BettyN]

Well, they sort of do. That's why they're all decently different in what they can do and how they do it and why some regional birds/rodents are better than others.

It also makes sense in the larger scheme of things as it relates to the real world.

Not in the same way that Gen 2 built upon Gen 1, though. Of course, part of that is because the other Gens have all been based around completely isolated regions with completely isolated Pokédexes and very few of the older Mons mixed in. Gen 2 didn't really need a Regional Bird, Bug, or Rodent because Johto was connected to Kanto, so it already had Pidgey/Spearow, Rattata, and Caterpie/Weedle for that purpose.

That being said, Gen 6 seems to be a step back in the right direction. Some people may complain about the small amount of new Pokémon, but the upshot of having only 68 new Mons is that very few of them are blatant rehashes/replacements. These Pokémon were meant to exist alongside the older ones instead of completely replacing them.

Also, I'm certain Unova isn't the only region guilty of doing this; it's just more noticeable because of the large amount of Pokemon introduced.

Oh, certainly not. Let me show you another Generation that's a lot more widely praised in these parts...

Mudkip Line = Wooper Line (slow, bulky Water/Ground mudfish)
Poochyena Line = Houndour Line (two-stage Dark Type canines)
Zigzagoon Line = Rattata Line (Normal Type Vendor Trash)
Wurmple Line = Caterpie and Weedle Lines (weak early-game cocoon bugs)
Taillow Line = Pidgey and Spearow Lines (early-game Normal birds)
Ralts Line = Abra Line (three-stage early-game Psychic Types that start off very weak, yet become very strong)
Shroomish Line = Paras Line (two-stage, Physically-oriented mushrooms)
Makuhita Line = Machop Line (slow, bulky Fighting Types that are 75% male)
Skitty Line = Meowth Line (two-stage cats with bad stats)
Aron Line = Rhyhorn Line (replace "Ground" with "Steel")
Plusle and Minun = Pikachu (cute and marketable electric rodents)
Gulpin Line = Grimer Line (slow, bulky Poison Types that look like goo)
Spoink Line = Drowzee Line (slow, defensive Psychic Types with snouts)
Seviper = Ekans Line (Poison snakes with mediocre stats)
Corphish Line = Krabby Line (slow, red crustaceans with high Attack)
Feebas Line = Magikarp Line (weak, splashing fish who evolve into strong 540 BST serpents)
Spheal Line = Seel Line and Lapras (slow, defensive Water/Ice types)
Bagon Line = Dratini Line (three-stage Dragon/Flying Pseudo-Legendaries)
Jirachi = Mew and Celebi (cute, event-only Psychic Type Legendaries with 600 BST)

And, then, there's the Generation right after it...

Chimchar Line = Torchic Line (Fire/Fighting starters)
Starly Line = Pidgey and the other early Normal birds
Bidoof Line = Ratatta and the other Normal Vendor Trash
Budew Line = Oddish and Bellsprout Lines (three-stage Grass/Poison flowers who evolve with a stone)
Burmy Line = Caterpie, Weedle, and Wurmple Lines (weak, early-game cocoon bugs)
Pachirisu = Pikachu and the other annoyingly cute electric rodents
Glameow Line = Meowth and Skitty Lines (weak two-stage cats)
Gible Line = Dratini and Bagon Lines (three-stage Physically-oriented Dragon Type Pseudos)
Carnivine = Bellsprout Line (slow, Physically-oriented Venus Flytraps)
Finneon Line = Goldeen Line (generic two-stage fish with mediocre stats)
Manaphy = Mew, Celebi, and Jirachi (cute, event-only Legendaries with 600 BST)

 

[Luminosity]

I don't see a problem with what some might call rehashes. How many different species of birds, fish, rodents, canines, butterflies, etc. are there in the world? I don't see Beautifly or Vivillon as a replacement for Butterfree. I see having multiple butterflies (or multiple anything) as an enrichment of the Pokemon world.

That said, some of the older Pokemon have gotten the short end of the stick as newer ones have come out, and Game Freak has acknowledged this by tweaking the base stats of some older Pokemon and expanding movepools of older Pokemon.

 

[Osprey]

Oh, certainly not. Let me show you another Generation that's a lot more widely praised in these parts...
[long list here]

There are only so many concepts and so many animals out there to use. Just because some Pokemon are similar in design and concept does not mean they are expies of each other. By that logic, one could say that all aquatic mammals are copies of the Bottlenose dolphin, only because the dolphin was the first one discovered. Yes, I know it's not exactly the same, but is it really so bad for some Pokemon to be similar to each other? Many people complained that the Kalos region didn't have enough new Pokemon, but was full of old ones. If Pokemon designs and concepts were limited to one-time use and no similarities allowed, then each new region would be full of old Pokemon and little else. Would we all really want that?

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

And, I'm not exactly fond of the idea of having "regional" birds and rodents to begin with. New Pokémon should build upon previous Generations, not copy them.

Well when I was playing Pokemon Black, I didn't know any of these new Pokemon. There were no old Pokemon, just weird looking new ones. I like the idea of Pokemon families, like the Pikachu family, or the Geodude family. Unova's Pokemon are heavily based on ones from the past gens. Well that better than nothing. At least you know the cousins of those Pokemon. Also have regional birds and rodents is kind of fun. it`s fun to compare all of them and see how they progress, Like Pidgey to Hoohoot to Tailow to Starly and so on.