Break Evolution

[Esserise]

I guess on the mythology side of things, it would sort of interest me; I presume that it would be expanding on the implication in ORAS that there could be several other kinds of Evolution like Primal Reversion. But the question is in how they would differentiate it from Mega Evolution. Primal Reversion is only different in that it triggers automatically at the beginning of the battle, instead of any time at will, and doesn't limit you to one Primal per battle. So that isn't very remarkable - Break Evolution would need something more distinct in order to make it stand out and make it a viable alternative to Mega Evolution.

Of course, realistically, I don't see them adding it in anyway.

 

[Jersey Jimmy]

Are there [...] Pokémon Star [...] in the games?

Yes, actually. They're called Shiny Pokémon.

 

[Silktree]

If they really wanted to do that, it could've been done with Mega Evolution, but they seem to have no interest in adding extra moves.

Or they think that Mega Evolution has enough perks as it is, which is true for the most part. A different kind of evolution could focus on extra moves with the drawback of a smaller stat boost and/or no ability change. You can't ask for everything in a single package.

 

[The Outrage]

If they really wanted to do that, it could've been done with Mega Evolution, but they seem to have no interest in adding extra moves.

To say they had no interest implies that at the time of conception:

1) Game Freak thought about doing that

2) Game Freak decided against it

We've had moves tied to form changes in the past (e.g., Kyurem, Keldeo) so it wouldn't be out of the question, especially if what they do is that in order to get the new move, the Pokemon has to have the "precursor move" in its moveset. One Pokemon who I could think of using that mechanic is Zygarde since it has two unreleased moves.

 

[PaulTheProtist]

Are there [...] Pokémon Star [...] in the games?

Yes, actually. They're called Shiny Pokémon.

They were in the games first, though. And they function differently, for example, they aren't limited to one per team. Furthermore, shiny Pokémon that aren't Pokémon Star are in the TCG, rendering your point moot.

 

[Bolt Strike]

If they really wanted to do that, it could've been done with Mega Evolution, but they seem to have no interest in adding extra moves.

Or they think that Mega Evolution has enough perks as it is, which is true for the most part. A different kind of evolution could focus on extra moves with the drawback of a smaller stat boost and/or no ability change. You can't ask for everything in a single package.

Considering that some Mega Evolutions have lacked decent options to take advantage of their new types or abilities, I wouldn't say that extra moves would be too many perks. The problem is trying to add a 5th move slot, I can't find the source on this but Game Freak did consider more move slots at one point but decided it would be too unbalanced.

If they really wanted to do that, it could've been done with Mega Evolution, but they seem to have no interest in adding extra moves.

To say they had no interest implies that at the time of conception:

1) Game Freak thought about doing that

2) Game Freak decided against it

We've had moves tied to form changes in the past (e.g., Kyurem, Keldeo) so it wouldn't be out of the question, especially if what they do is that in order to get the new move, the Pokemon has to have the "precursor move" in its moveset. One Pokemon who I could think of using that mechanic is Zygarde since it has two unreleased moves.

That's a possibility, but aside from Zygarde's situation, it'd be really awkward to deal with since you'd either need to leave a move slot free or delete a move every single time you Mega Evolve.

 

[Silktree]

Considering that some Mega Evolutions have lacked decent options to take advantage of their new types or abilities,

Some being the key word.

The problem is trying to add a 5th move slot, I can't find the source on this but Game Freak did consider more move slots at one point but decided it would be too unbalanced.

I am talking about a fifth move slot, and I don't see why Game Freak's stance on it in general (back in Generation III when they considered it) should rule out limiting it to a new kind of evolution which could have the same limitations as Mega Evolution. After all, Game Freak probably considered the idea of 4-stage evolutions at some point and figured that it would hurt balance, but they ended up realizing it (for some lines) via Mega Evolution.

 

[The Outrage]

I am talking about a fifth move slot, and I don't see why Game Freak's stance on it in general (back in Generation III when they considered it) should rule out limiting it to a new kind of evolution which could have the same limitations as Mega Evolution. After all, Game Freak probably considered the idea of 4-stage evolutions at some point and figured that it would hurt balance, but they ended up realizing it (for some lines) via Mega Evolution.

In terms of a fifth move slot, its not like it would take up that much extra room. Once you activate the Break Evolution button (I assume placed in the same area as the Mega Evolution button), that blank space at the bottom could be replaced by the Break-exclusive move.

But yeah, aside from finding a work-around for a 4-stage line, Game Freak has experimented (to a limited degree) having three types as well as dual type moves. They even broke their own Mega-Evolution rule with Rayquaza and let it hold an item so long as it knows an incredibly powerful STAB move.

I'm not sure if I want Break Evolution necessarily (since it seems unimpressive from the TCG), but as @Endolise brought up, ORAS has opened the door canonically for there to be other types of atypical evolutions. Given that Mega Evolution was a way for Game Freak to add to 3-stage lines without breaking their 3-stage rule, other forms of evolution may allow for Game Freak to work around other established conventions, such as triple-types and an extra move.

 

[Bolt Strike]

I think they need to rethink movesets in general, because having to use one moveset for a variety of different situations doesn't work very well, and I don't think simply adding a 5th slot is enough to fix that. I think they should experiment with having multiple movesets of some sort, where you can have 4 moves for battle, 4 moves for Mega Evolutions, 2 for field moves, and maybe some for contests, where moves may or may not be shared between the two movesets. So for instance, if you have a Mega that changes type, you can put a STAB move on its Mega moveset whereas its regular battle moveset has room for something else. The moveset system really needs that sense of flexibility.

 

[The Outrage]

I think they need to rethink movesets in general, because having to use one moveset for a variety of different situations doesn't work very well, and I don't think simply adding a 5th slot is enough to fix that. I think they should experiment with having multiple movesets of some sort, where you can have 4 moves for battle, 4 moves for Mega Evolutions, 2 for field moves, and maybe some for contests, where moves may or may not be shared between the two movesets. So for instance, if you have a Mega that changes type, you can put a STAB move on its Mega moveset whereas its regular battle moveset has room for something else. The moveset system really needs that sense of flexibility.

That's the whole point of competitive battling--its to craft a moveset within a given limitation that can handle the widest range of situations. Allowing Mega Evolutions to have their own moveset separate from their base form would be far too broken, especially for Pokemon whose base forms aren't only usable, but can also function differently from its Mega forms.

I also have to question the validity your assertion that "having to use one moveset for a variety of different situations doesn't work very well", considering that you've admitted you don't battle competitively. It seems like you're expecting a single Pokemon to handle all situations when in standard gameplay, you'd have 3 - 6 Pokemon depending on the format.

And the field move thing could be solved by removing HM moves and replacing them with either Key Items or a "skill" that Pokemon have (e.g., all large water Pokemon should have the "skill" to swim across a body of water with a person on it)

 

[Bolt Strike]

That's the whole point of competitive battling--its to craft a moveset within a given limitation that can handle the widest range of situations. Allowing Mega Evolutions to have their own moveset separate from their base form would be far too broken, especially for Pokemon whose base forms aren't only usable, but can also function differently from its Mega forms.

I also have to question the validity your assertion that "having to use one moveset for a variety of different situations doesn't work very well", considering that you've admitted you don't battle competitively. It seems like you're expecting a single Pokemon to handle all situations when in standard gameplay, you'd have 3 - 6 Pokemon depending on the format.

The problem is that Megas can't really take advantage of their boosts that way, especially when they change types. A type change Mega usually ends up lacking in options for STAB moves and it doesn't always make sense to give them to the regular Pokemon, so naturally there should be some way to give them a separate level up moveset. Having a separate moveset for Megas just seemed like the easiest way to do that.

And the field move thing could be solved by removing HM moves and replacing them with either Key Items or a "skill" that Pokemon have (e.g., all large water Pokemon should have the "skill" to swim across a body of water with a person on it)

Using Key Items would defeat the spirit of the series, there's a strong emphasis on adventuring with and befriending Pokemon and relying on your Pokemon to help you navigate the overworld reinforces that point. They could do skills I guess, but that's also seems somewhat detached from the core gameplay if they don't come from actual moves.

 

[The Outrage]

The problem is that Megas can't really take advantage of their boosts that way, especially when they change types. A type change Mega usually ends up lacking in options for STAB moves and it doesn't always make sense to give them to the regular Pokemon, so naturally there should be some way to give them a separate level up moveset. Having a separate moveset for Megas just seemed like the easiest way to do that.

You're bringing up points that are issues in theory, but in practice, are pretty non-existent for two reasons. First, these type-changing Megas never have their original types completely replaced, meaning that they can draw STAB from their static non-Mega typing, as well as the typing they get through Mega Evolution. Second, the majority of these Pokemon will spend less than a turn in their non-Mega states since they aren't competitively viable otherwise, meaning that even if they had changed their types completely, in practical terms, they will always have a STAB move since they will never be spending any time outside of their Mega Evolved states. In fact, the only Pokemon who are viable in their non-Mega states have the same typing in both forms (e.g., Garchomp, Sableye, Lucario).

Now, leaving the world of theory and examining Megas in practice--of the seven non-Uber Mega Pokemon that undergo a type change (Aggron not included because it loses a type), over half of them are considered OU. Now, when you look at their move-sets, only Altaria foregoes any of its original STAB moves, which, going back to my second point in the first paragraph, is a non-issue because it is one of the many Pokemon that are only viable in its Mega Evolved state. Then there's the unique case with Gyarados where it doesn't have a viable flying STAB and actually got better thanks to getting access to STAB Crunch.

And to drive the point home further, Gardevoir foregoes any Fairy STAB in its original state (even though Fairy is better than Psychic) to use Hyper Voice simply because Mega Gardevoir will turn Hyper Voice into an even more powerful Fairy-type move thanks to Pixilate. If losing one of your STAB moves is such a big issue, then we wouldn't see someone who can actually have their STAB in both stages willingly give it up in their pre-Mega form.

 

[Bolt Strike]

The problem is that Megas can't really take advantage of their boosts that way, especially when they change types. A type change Mega usually ends up lacking in options for STAB moves and it doesn't always make sense to give them to the regular Pokemon, so naturally there should be some way to give them a separate level up moveset. Having a separate moveset for Megas just seemed like the easiest way to do that.

You're bringing up points that are issues in theory, but in practice, are pretty non-existent for two reasons. First, these type-changing Megas never have their original types completely replaced, meaning that they can draw STAB from their static non-Mega typing, as well as the typing they get through Mega Evolution. Second, the majority of these Pokemon will spend less than a turn in their non-Mega states since they aren't competitively viable otherwise, meaning that even if they had changed their types completely, in practical terms, they will always have a STAB move since they will never be spending any time outside of their Mega Evolved states. In fact, the only Pokemon who are viable in their non-Mega states have the same typing in both forms (e.g., Garchomp, Sableye, Lucario).

Now, leaving the world of theory and examining Megas in practice--of the seven non-Uber Mega Pokemon that undergo a type change (Aggron not included because it loses a type), over half of them are considered OU. Now, when you look at their move-sets, only Altaria foregoes any of its original STAB moves, which, going back to my second point in the first paragraph, is a non-issue because it is one of the many Pokemon that are only viable in its Mega Evolved state. Then there's the unique case with Gyarados where it doesn't have a viable flying STAB and actually got better thanks to getting access to STAB Crunch.

And to drive the point home further, Gardevoir foregoes any Fairy STAB in its original state (even though Fairy is better than Psychic) to use Hyper Voice simply because Mega Gardevoir will turn Hyper Voice into an even more powerful Fairy-type move thanks to Pixilate. If losing one of your STAB moves is such a big issue, then we wouldn't see someone who can actually have their STAB in both stages willingly give it up in their pre-Mega form.

You're missing the point. It's not about the typing it loses when it Mega Evolves, it's about the typing it gains. For instance, Sceptile only has Dual Chop in its level up moveset and you have to look to TMs and Move Tutor moves to get any decent options. You have tons and tons of options for STAB for the default types but the Mega type only has 1 or 2 in the level up plus a couple from TMs and Move Tutors.

 

[The Outrage]

You're missing the point. It's not about the typing it loses when it Mega Evolves, it's about the typing it gains.

You failed to articulate the point properly--and given the context of the preceding conversation (i.e., giving Mega Evolutions their own separate movesets; Break Evolution altering the moveset/giving a new move) how am I supposed to know you're talking about their move-pool?

If you mean Mega Pokemon should have a separate list of moves it can learn from its original state, how do you propose that works when they are only Mega in battle?

For instance, Sceptile only has Dual Chop in its level up moveset and you have to look to TMs and Move Tutor moves to get any decent options.

From a competitive standpoint, most Pokemon aren't going to get very far with its natural moveset, so your point of having to look towards TMs and Move Tutors (and Egg Moves) isn't restricted to Megas. This issue of having an ill-equipped level-up move pool isn't even restricted to type-change Megas, as Pokemon like Mega Blastoise and Mega Gardevoir cannot take full advantage of their abilities without turning to egg moves or tutors.

The issue you're bringing up here isn't even related to the original topic of altering movesets through an evolution mechanic, since now you're just talking about movepool limitations these Pokemon have (which aren't even restricted to type-change megas in the first place)

You have tons and tons of options for STAB for the default types but the Mega type only has 1 or 2 in the level up plus a couple from TMs and Move Tutors.

You don't really need "tons and tons" of options--you only need one or two (and even then, you only use one). Mega Gyarados isn't going to go back and use Bite now that it has Crunch. Related to the point you raised above, Pokemon who get type change evolutions have their move pool altered so that they get at least the one good STAB their new typing has.

But again, I fail to see how this is at all relevant to the topic at hand, which was a new evolution mechanic. People were talking about a new evolution breaking the 4-move-limit so how does a restrictive movepool come into this conversation? Perhaps the reason I missed the point is because you went on a different topic completely.

 

[Bolt Strike]

@The Outrage; You just answered your own question. The fact that Mega Evolutions only last in battle is exactly the reason why I brought up multiple movesets, if there's a separate moveset reserved for Mega Evolution then you can teach its Mega new moves without having to actually Mega Evolve it in battle. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

As for the STAB moves, there's no one move that's the end all be all for a particular type, they could do with more than 1 or 2.

 

[The Outrage]

@The Outrage; You just answered your own question. The fact that Mega Evolutions only last in battle is exactly the reason why I brought up multiple movesets, if there's a separate moveset reserved for Mega Evolution then you can teach its Mega new moves without having to actually Mega Evolve it in battle. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

How does this work in battle? And at this point, it might as well just be a new type of evolution.

As for the STAB moves, there's no one move that's the end all be all for a particular type, they could do with more than 1 or 2.

STABs that people use are either the high-powered low accuracy moves or the strong, accurate types. Pokemon only have four moves, they'll only use one, and the one they use is the one that as the best odds of winning the battle. For instance, most Pokemon will go for the strong, accurate STAB but if there's a threat that can only be taken out with the more powerful move, then they'll go for it.

There aren't many Pokemon that use multiple moves of the same type in battle. The only time they'll actually choose one move over the other depends on the battle format. For instance, Mega Gardevoir will always use Hyper Voice. Gardevoir, on the otherhand may alternate between Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam depending on whether it is in a single or double battle. It isn't going to suddenly use a weaker fairy STAB.

The only time there's going to be two offensive moves that overlap is when the other move has some utility outside of simply damaging the opponent. For instance, a Dark type may have both a solid STAB move and Sucker Punch for priority, but at the same time not all Dark types have Sucker Punch. How are Megas any different from non-Megas who lose out on specific moves?

 

[Silktree]

I think they need to rethink movesets in general, because having to use one moveset for a variety of different situations doesn't work very well, and I don't think simply adding a 5th slot is enough to fix that. I think they should experiment with having multiple movesets of some sort, where you can have 4 moves for battle, 4 moves for Mega Evolutions,

Didn't you talk about balance before? I don't think you know what it means if you think that Mega Evolution deserves to unlock a completely separate moveset on top of the existing boosts. Seriously.

 

[Bolt Strike]

How does this work in battle?

Simple. When it Mega Evolves it switches to the other moveset. What exactly is there not to understand about that?

And at this point, it might as well just be a new type of evolution.

You could argue that it should've been, but what's done is done.

 

[The Outrage]

Simple. When it Mega Evolves it switches to the other moveset. What exactly is there not to understand about that?

That's exactly what I thought you were talking about the first time--hence my criticism of the idea, and how unfairly broken that would be. Then you went on about how they "can't take advantage of STAB moves" to which I proceeded to demonstrate how much of a non-issue that was (essentially, you're doubling a Pokemon's moveset to fix a perceived problem that doesn't exist).

So yes, I actually interpreted your response correct the first time despite your assertion of "missing the point" and how its about the "type they gain" and not the type they lose. Even though you continue with a flimsy argument that they need to utilize Move tutors/TMs/Egg Moves as a reason they need a separate move set which isn't unique to those Megas at all, despite the fact that in an earlier post, I've already demonstrated how changing types and losing/gaining STAB is a non-issue.

I guess the pertinent question is this:
If your issue is that, and I quote "You have tons and tons of options for STAB for the default types but the Mega type only has 1 or 2 in the level up plus a couple from TMs and Move Tutors" how does adding a separate moveset (i.e., the four moves you use in battle) alleviate a crappy move pool (i.e., the entire body of moves a Pokemon can learn)

That question is what you didn't address and seem to be conflating with your arguments. You seem to be the one missing the point here. I was addressing the 2-move-set idea, and pointing out why the issues you brought up didn't exist and why Megas only need one moveset (aside from being incredibly broken to have two)--only for you to go off on a tangent from moveset to shallow movepools.

I get that you want separate move sets for separate situations (e.g., battles, contests, overworld) but here's the issue with a separate moveset for Mega/Non-Mega that you don't seem to get: it gives a Pokemon twice the moves to choose from, giving already powerful Pokemon an even more unfair advantage. Its ironic that you're okay with a Pokemon that can wield 8 moves, but won't even consider a third type when trust me, the former is much more game breaking than the latter.

EDIT: More to the point, if you are wondering what I do not understand, its because I was criticizing your move-set suggestion, to which you said that I missed the point and went on a rant about how some Megas have shallow move pools. So I assumed (and you did not correct me on that) that you meant Megas should have a separate movepool--which is why I asked how that would work. By definition, Mega Pokemon could not have their own separate movepool from their non-Megas because they are the same individual Pokemon.

Then you proceed to talk about the 2-moveset idea, again asking what's so hard to understand about that....even though I fully understood it the first time and you were the one making unrelated points.

Now the second question:
What's so hard to understand that your suggestion is unnecessary (to which I've illustrated in my previous posts) and game breaking (to which common sense illustrates)

You could argue that it should've been, but what's done is done.

Except its not done. What I'm arguing is that your suggestion for a separate move set be in a separate evolution mechanic, not Mega Evolution as you suggest (i.e., similar to prior suggestions of ow Break Evolution could be handled).

Didn't you talk about balance before? I don't think you know what it means if you think that Mega Evolution deserves to unlock a completely separate moveset on top of the existing boosts. Seriously.

An easy illustration to this point is how all Mega Pokemon could benefit from using Protect in their first turn, but many decide against it simply because it messes with the synergy of the move set. Yeah, we could take the suggestion that there be no move overlaps, but then aside from Sableye and a few others who could manage that, all Megas would just have Protect in their initial forms, and then have the four moves for their evolutions.

A secondary move set not only gives an unfair advantage to already powerful Pokemon, but it also negates one of the few built-in drawbacks that their forms have.

 

[Bolt Strike]

So yes, I actually interpreted your response correct the first time despite your assertion of "missing the point" and how its about the "type they gain" and not the type they lose. Even though you continue with a flimsy argument that they need to utilize Move tutors/TMs/Egg Moves as a reason they need a separate move set which isn't unique to those Megas at all, despite the fact that in an earlier post, I've already demonstrated how changing types and losing/gaining STAB is a non-issue.

You've demonstrated nothing, and the fact remains that Mega Evolutions are severely limited in terms of movepools for their type, much more than a real evolution would.

If your issue is that, and I quote "You have tons and tons of options for STAB for the default types but the Mega type only has 1 or 2 in the level up plus a couple from TMs and Move Tutors" how does adding a separate moveset (i.e., the four moves you use in battle) alleviate a crappy move pool (i.e., the entire body of moves a Pokemon can learn)

I'm not saying just a separate moveset, I'm saying a separate movepool, much like a regular evolution would get.

I get that you want separate move sets for separate situations (e.g., battles, contests, overworld) but here's the issue with a separate moveset for Mega/Non-Mega that you don't seem to get: it gives a Pokemon twice the moves to choose from, giving already powerful Pokemon an even more unfair advantage. Its ironic that you're okay with a Pokemon that can wield 8 moves, but won't even consider a third type when trust me, the former is much more game breaking than the latter.

None of the Pokemon that change types are OP though, and they can only utilize 4 moves at a time. That's not game breaking.

Except its not done. What I'm arguing is that your suggestion for a separate move set be in a separate evolution mechanic, not Mega Evolution as you suggest (i.e., similar to prior suggestions of ow Break Evolution could be handled).

Or they could just use more regular cross gen evolutions again, that's a much simpler option.