Bulbagarden Fanfiction Awards - General Discussion

[Zekurom]

No, you're right, it's not "that fucking bad" but it is bad and it is totally unnecessary.

And, actually, as much as everyone would love to believe it, I don't believe that anyone would vote for some fics just because they're popular. What possible incentive could there be for someone doing that? Perhaps you could argue that some people only read the most popular fics and therefore don't give the not as well established fics a chance and I'd be forced to agree with you on that. But you'd be naive to think that barring people from the Awards is going to do anything to change that.

I think their line of thinking is that, "If we exclude them from one cycle of the awards, it makes the readers and voters actually read some of the fics that they didn't read, if they want to vote this time around."

I'll propose a test to see if people really are reading the other fics - we can test-drive this exclusion from the seasonal cycle business for one year.

If it turns out that during the cycle where the most popular fics have already earned an award, the voter turnout is actually lower by some appreciable degree, then we'll be reasonably certain that people are voting just for the popularity factor, and not actually bothering to read the fics that are not the ones they are already dead set on voting for.

(But just to calm you down a bit, Gastly's Mama, remember the system that I had, where I'd make a good faith effort to review all the fics that were nominated for the awards? I read all the fics in that category and yours still turned out the highest. But that was Roots, not Rival's Story.)

One more thing, I'd really appreciate it if people could stop referring to all the popular writers in the Workshop as "Legacy and Gastly's Mama" because that's simply not true and only exacerbates the problem that we already have. Constantly referring to the two of us as the best authors doesn't reflect the popularity and quality of other authors in the Workshop: What about Ryuutakeshi? TPI and SoE are the two fics in the Workshop that I would say are, without a doubt, more popular and better written than Rival's Story. What about The Noob? I'm not exactly his biggest fan as a human being but it cannot be denied that his written work is both entertaining and popular - maybe he could be huge if he ever stopped being banned for long enough. What about Kayi Rowling? Before Kisses and Two Garnets, I felt like there were two camps in the Workshop - those who liked shipping and those who did not, it feels like Kayi has really managed to bridge the gap between those warring tribes! What about Flame Haze, GIROG, Aladar, Zekurom, Lugion, AceTrainer and all the other fantastic writers on this site, including even yourself, Jabber? It seems to me that the people who say that Legacy and I dominate this site the most are the people who don't want that to be the way it is... well, do yourself a favour and stop referring to us as the cruel dictators who are somehow unfairly talented!

I'm honoured to be on that list.

I imagine that the reason we refer to you two all the time is because you two have pretty much been established as the standard of good writing here on the Bulbagarden fanfiction forums.

I'll tell you this - I don't think of you two as anything especially special - especially the cruel dictators you take us taking you out to be. You two are just two of the excellent authors on this site.

 

[Kayi Rowling]

I think their line of thinking is that, "If we exclude them from one cycle of the awards, it makes the readers and voters actually read some of the fics that they didn't read, if they want to vote this time around."

Yeah, that's kind of the idea the staff has at the moment.

I'll propose a test to see if people really are reading the other fics - we can test-drive this exclusion from the seasonal cycle business for one year.

If it turns out that during the cycle where the most popular fics have already earned an award, the voter turnout is actually lower by some appreciable degree, then we'll be reasonably certain that people are voting just for the popularity factor, and not actually bothering to read the fics that are not the ones they are already dead set on voting for.

And I like this idea too We can't know what works best until we try it, can we? (...unfortunately)

 

[Gama]

I think their line of thinking is that, "If we exclude them from one cycle of the awards, it makes the readers and voters actually read some of the fics that they didn't read, if they want to vote this time around."

I'll propose a test to see if people really are reading the other fics - we can test-drive this exclusion from the seasonal cycle business for one year.

If it turns out that during the cycle where the most popular fics have already earned an award, the voter turnout is actually lower by some appreciable degree, then we'll be reasonably certain that people are voting just for the popularity factor, and not actually bothering to read the fics that are not the ones they are already dead set on voting for.

(But just to calm you down a bit, Gastly's Mama, remember the system that I had, where I'd make a good faith effort to review all the fics that were nominated for the awards? I read all the fics in that category and yours still turned out the highest. But that was Roots, not Rival's Story.)



I'm honoured to be on that list.

I imagine that the reason we refer to you two all the time is because you two have pretty much been established as the standard of good writing here on the Bulbagarden fanfiction forums.

I'll tell you this - I don't think of you two as anything especially special - especially the cruel dictators you take us taking you out to be. You two are just two of the excellent authors on this site.

Well, yes, I can see the point. I suppose it does make sense but I still disagree with the premise of it, I think it's a bad way to deal with that problem. I am, though, resigned to it happening, so I don't really plan to make a much bigger fuss than I already have about this issue.

I don't think the voter turn out will be lower, but I don't think it will make people read anything new. Take the Best Journey Fic award for example. Me and you both know that it was damned closed between Gen 2021 and Rival's Story. Now say Rival's Story had not just finished, it would be banned. So I would say 90% of people who had voted Rival's Story would just vote Gen 2021 (which I imagine a large proportion of them would have read anyway) and most people still wouldn't take the time to read the stories that have little to no following already.

And as for your reviewing and your honour code to read everything, I think it's fantastic and your scoring system really helps the transparency of voting that is central to the way the awards currently work on this site. In fact, I think it'd be a good idea for you to write a thread called 'How To Give a Good Review' or something like that and have a mod sticky in either the main Workshop or the Block.

And I understand I may have overreacted to the way Legacy and I are perceived around here (and I know you don't think of things that way, of course) but it is just a little hurtful to hear people talk as if we have some sort of unfair advantage and, although this might sound a little silly, you'll understand if you've been in a similar situation, for every one person that seems to see us as elitist or whatever, it takes ten to counterbalance how I feel like I'm being seen around the Workshop.

 

[Kayi Rowling]

And as for your reviewing and your honour code to read everything, I think it's fantastic and your scoring system really helps the transparency of voting that is central to the way the awards currently work on this site. In fact, I think it'd be a good idea for you to write a thread called 'How To Give a Good Review' or something like that and have a mod sticky in either the main Workshop or the Block.

We already have a How to Review thread. Sorry that it's so old... :sweatlol:

 

[Legacy]

I'm good with the idea of banning winners from one cycle of the awards, but I just want to add that it's kind of silly to have a competition where voters determine the outcome only to complain when it turns into a "popularity contest." By the very definition of voting for something, the winners are winning a "popularity contest."

To me, the awards were started to guage the Garden's consensus for which fics were the "best" according to the Garden. To me, it sounds like people don't want that anymore... they want the voters to pick the fics that are the most techincally sound or have the fewest number of tv troup flaws, etc. instead of determining people's favorites or their picks for what they think are the best. You can't let people freely vote for what they like best, and then get mad about what they pick and accuse them of voting based on the wrong set of criteria because in the end, this sort of competition is supposed to allow readers/voters to show love to the fics that they most enjoyed reading.

Like I've said, if you guys truly want the awards to go to the most technically sound, most gracfully written, fewest grammatical errors, etc., you need to get rid of the voting and just use a panel of expert judges like Zekurom. We've already determined this isn't plausible or appealing, but yeah I guess my point is that if you want to have the Garden vote on their favorites... you can't expect it not to be a "popularity contest."

The new ruling you guys are making will probably help people read other fics that they aren't already reading, so that's good! I know that everyone in this community works hard to write their stories, so anything that you guys think will give them more exposure and viewers is good. Just giving my $0.02 on the "popularity contest" issue.

 

[Zekurom]

I don't think the voter turnout will be lower, but I don't think it will make people read anything new. Take the Best Journey Fic award for example. Me and you both know that it was damned close between Gen 2021 and Rival's Story. Now say Rival's Story had not just finished, it would be banned. So I would say 90% of people who had voted Rival's Story would just vote Gen 2021 (which I imagine a large proportion of them would have read anyway) and most people still wouldn't take the time to read the stories that have little to no following already.

Not quite - you had three more votes than I did. When it's 8 vs. 5, that's a pretty big margin. But I do see your point.

Also, if people were really reading my fic, it didn't show much in the thread itself. I think I've had what now, six or seven reviewers for a 90,000-word fic?

And as for your reviewing and your honour code to read everything, I think it's fantastic and your scoring system really helps the transparency of voting that is central to the way the awards currently work on this site. In fact, I think it'd be a good idea for you to write a thread called 'How To Give a Good Review' or something like that and have a mod sticky in either the main Workshop or the Block.

What Kayi said about the "How to review" thread ^_^

I don't think my reviewing style would suit everybody, really. I don't even give numerical ratings unless people ask for them.

And I understand I may have overreacted to the way Legacy and I are perceived around here (and I know you don't think of things that way, of course) but it is just a little hurtful to hear people talk as if we have some sort of unfair advantage and, although this might sound a little silly, you'll understand if you've been in a similar situation, for every one person that seems to see us as elitist or whatever, it takes ten to counterbalance how I feel like I'm being seen around the Workshop.

I guess I know what you mean about that.

After all, I can't put myself in your shoes. I've never been in anything near that kind of situation.

I'm good with the idea of banning winners from one cycle of the awards, but I just want to add that it's kind of silly to have a competition where voters determine the outcome only to complain when it turns into a "popularity contest." By the very definition of voting for something, the winners are winning a "popularity contest."

Mm hmm.

Like I've said, if you guys truly want the awards to go to the most technically sound, most gracefully written, fewest grammatical errors, etc., you need to get rid of the voting and just use a panel of expert judges like Zekurom. We've already determined this isn't plausible or appealing, but yeah I guess my point is that if you want to have the Garden vote on their favorites... you can't expect it not to be a "popularity contest."

I'm an expert judge? I'm flattered you think that way ^_^

The new ruling you guys are making will probably help people read other fics that they aren't already reading, so that's good! I know that everyone in this community works hard to write their stories, so anything that you guys think will give them more exposure and viewers is good. Just giving my $0.02 on the "popularity contest" issue.

I don't mind the awards being a popularity contest. The only problem that (I think) we're trying to deal with is the stagnation of popularity. After all, popularity has inertia. It will keep going in the same direction until something or another forces it another way. What we want to determine is what will be the driving force.

 

[Blondie]

I don't mind the awards being a popularity contest. The only problem that (I think) we're trying to deal with is the stagnation of popularity. After all, popularity has inertia. It will keep going in the same direction until something or another forces it another way. What we want to determine is what will be the driving force.

Shouldn't the "driving force" be the other authors themselves? People seems to forget that TPI and Rivals Story were once brand new fics and Legay and GMa were once new authors here...they wrote their fics and a lot of people began following them. They obv did something write to get all that attention. People wouldn't blindly follow them if they weren't entertaining to read.

I think the awards have taken on way too much importance around here. To hear you guys talk you'd think Legacy and Gma are totally preventing anyone else from even writing their fic or ever getting readers during non-awards time. But in the end, readers are smart enough to follow what they deem as good. Banning authors in what is now going to be a 3-times a year competition is not going to drastically effect how we readers choose what we want to follow.

 

[Captain GIROG]

Shouldn't the "driving force" be the other authors themselves? People seems to forget that TPI and Rivals Story were once brand new fics and Legay and GMa were once new authors here...they wrote their fics and a lot of people began following them. They obv did something write to get all that attention. People wouldn't blindly follow them if they weren't entertaining to read.

I think the awards have taken on way too much importance around here. To hear you guys talk you'd think Legacy and Gma are totally preventing anyone else from even writing their fic or ever getting readers during non-awards time. But in the end, readers are smart enough to follow what they deem as good. Banning authors in what is now going to be a 3-times a year competition is not going to drastically effect how we readers choose what we want to follow.

The point you're missing is simple:

Not many people are actually trying out everything the Workshop has to offer. The good mods are trying to fix this. You can say the opposite all you want, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Yes, we know everyone started sometime. Anyone who doesn't know this probably doesn't even know the composition of water. That does not stop the fact that it's harder to start now than it was to start then.

Blindly following something is not a good thing. Rival's Story and TPI are damn good. Are they the best here? Maybe. I have no clue what the best thing on here is. And that's what the awards should be about.

What the good mods are trying to do is find a way to make it so the best win. Not the most read, but the best. Go up to someone on the street, ask him or her about The Belgariad, then ask about Harry Potter. Chances are, the person won't know what The Belgariad is, but will know what Harry Potter is. They're both good books in the Fantasy genre. Harry Potter is well known. The Belgariad is not very well known at all. My opinion? The Belgariad is ten times as good as Harry Potter.

Now, if we were to have nominations and polls for the greatest Fantasy epic of all time, Harry Potter would probably win. If it didn't, then it would probably be very high up there. The Belgariad would be lucky to even get on that list.

So, how would we get more people to read both The Belgariad and Harry Potter, so that they would be able to make a decision based on their experience, instead of just what they have and haven't read? That's the problem.

And the good mods are trying to fix it. Quite frankly, saying the problem doesn't exist is just making it worse.

 

[Zekurom]

I think the awards have taken on way too much importance around here. To hear you guys talk you'd think Legacy and Gma are totally preventing anyone else from even writing their fic or ever getting readers during non-awards time. But in the end, readers are smart enough to follow what they deem as good. Banning authors in what is now going to be a 3-times a year competition is not going to drastically effect how we readers choose what we want to follow.

I think what GIROG is saying, and is the most important thing here, is that we're not blaming Legacy and Gastly's Mama (is it really that hard to type that name out...? >_>) for anything. It's not their fault that their fics are, as we so say, "blocking out the competition". It's the readers' fault, for not reading anything else, and only coming here on the fanfic boards in order to comment on these fics that they've heard about.

This is the problem that the moderators are trying to manage.

Actually, I'll suggest this now, but I think that the Story tier (which is obviously more prestigious than the Character tier) should have a requirement of a review to at least half of the nominated stories in each category. Nothing extremely detailed like mine, but at least an effort to read it. Then we wouldn't need any of this stuff about banning previously winning fics, because we'd know that all the fics are being taken into account, anyway, and that people actually know what they're doing when they vote The Power Inside as the best fic.

The Character tier wouldn't require anything of the kind, because the characters are attached to the story, and therefore would probably be considered as well. (Although, this might just be my personal bias because I never vote on the Character category.)

*waits for the flaming*

 

[Dorothy]

A review requirement doesn't sound too bad, IMO.

 

[Kayi Rowling]

Actually, I'll suggest this now, but I think that the Story tier (which is obviously more prestigious than the Character tier) should have a requirement of a review to at least half of the nominated stories in each category. Nothing extremely detailed like mine, but at least an effort to read it. Then we wouldn't need any of this stuff about banning previously winning fics, because we'd know that all the fics are being taken into account, anyway, and that people actually know what they're doing when they vote The Power Inside as the best fic.

The Character tier wouldn't require anything of the kind, because the characters are attached to the story, and therefore would probably be considered as well. (Although, this might just be my personal bias because I never vote on the Character category.)

*waits for the flaming*

*picks up flamethrower* Actually, your idea is pretty good

It's not that hard for us, the mods, to check if they have done as required. It's also "solid" proof of proper participation.

However, there's a problem, but we'll handle the risk of less nominators/voters later... Ideas?

 

[Zekurom]

A review requirement doesn't sound too bad, IMO.

And you see, I thought I'd be shot down immediately for the idea being infeasible.

Didn't think it would be received so warmly ^_^

 

[Blondie]

How many readers on the site to you think are even interested in all the different types of genres? Asking readers to read all the various type of stories on this site sounds good, but how realistic is it?

I'm not trying to be a bitch but yeah, All-knowing Girog, what do you got for dealing with that issue?

 

[Dorothy]

Blondie, I'd appreciate it if you'd tone down the sarcasm.

 

[Zekurom]

How many readers on the site to you think are even interested in all the different types of genres? Asking readers to read all the various type of stories on this site sounds good, but how realistic is it?

I'm not trying to be a bitch but yeah, All-knowing Girog, what do you got for dealing with that issue?

I'm not GIROG, but I can answer that question, in the context of my new proposition.

Asking the readers to actually review the fics in a category might actually remove the need for them to vote in at least half the categories. Because then, although there might be fewer votes, they'd actually know what they're talking about. Quality over quantity, you know. If a person really doesn't like a category, they wouldn't have to vote in it.

 

[Blondie]

Blondie, I'd appreciate it if you'd tone down the sarcasm.

Yeah point taken. And the way Girog worded his jab at me probably makes it okay, but I don't take kindly to being called simple minded.

 

[Captain GIROG]

Yeah point taken. And the way Girog worded his jab at me probably makes it okay, but I don't take kindly to being called simple minded.

Sorry if it came off that way. I wasn't in too good a mood last night.

Also, what Zekurom said. I think having to vote for most everything escalates the problem, as people who aren't interested in every genre (reading shipping and nothing else, maybe) would just vote for something they heard is good to get that happy percentage.

My idea probably won't work, but what about a one week "judging period" between the nominations and the voting? People would be more inclined to read everything in that category if they weren't able to jump in and vote instantly.


Edit: I used the wrong name.

 

[Zekurom]

Also, what Jabberwocky said. I think having to vote for most everything escalates the problem, as people who aren't interested in every genre (reading shipping and nothing else, maybe) would just vote for something they heard is good to get that happy percentage.

But Jabbers never said that...

 

[Captain GIROG]

But Jabbers never said that...

Hmm, I seem to be going insane. I honestly thought that your post was from Jabberwocky.

 

[Zekurom]

Hmm, I seem to be going insane. I honestly thought that your post was from Jabberwocky.

So what, we're the same person now? XD