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BW or SM?

Which do you like better?

  • Best Wishes!

    Votes: 14 25.5%
  • Sun and Moon!

    Votes: 41 74.5%

  • Total voters
    55
PokéGod
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SM anyday. I love its comedy and slice-of-life approach, almost every character (including Pokémon) has funny and interensting personality, no more CotD vs. TR episodes, so that was welcomed change of pace after festival of yawnings BW and XY were for me.
 
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SM. Yeah dumbing down Ash to the point where an average newb* could own him, and forcing it just to justify an Iris tease would be problematic without, but:

But what BW has given, a loss to dumbest trainer(Cameron).
Moments like this and especially Dazzling the Nimbasa Gym didn't just feel like a case of poor writing. If there was any moment in the anime at all that were to be considered a deliberate middle finger to the viewers, it would definitely be these two.

*Also, what was at stake anyway with this rivalry? With Paul it was proving that compassion and friendliness could get worthwhile results. With Gary it's proving that he not only was the best Pallet trainer, but also that you can still win even with a poor start.

"He beat my electric mouse" doesn't feel like it's worth basing a rivalry on all that much. Works more for Beyblade where friendly competitions and good sportsmanship is a novelty.
 
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At first, I didn't quite "like" the whole concept of SM. But after actually watching it I realised it was merely prejudice. The fact is, it is actually similar to BW, or other past series. I mean, in terms of my "reaction to it". There might have been changes to the old template, but it actually doesn't feel any different.

I just can see that SM tries to do some "comedy", but I haven't laughed once. There has been no laughable jokes after all (maybe one or two exceptions I can't remember now). I've thought it may be due to the dub that some jokes could lose their funniness, who knows. BW was not that bad, except for those battles we all know.

My conclusion would be that I probably enjoyed more DP & XY than BW and SM, but I've never really hated or disliked BW or SM. I really think the good points of a series matter more than the bad ones, otherwise it's hard to enjoy them.
 
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BW was not that bad, except for those battles we all know.
Well looking at the Nimbasa Gym match it would have been more forgivable if it was merely Ash making some of the usual rookie mistakes, but:

- Usually one of Ash's positive traits is some regard for the rules. And yeah even if he was confident in winning with just Palpitoad, I'd think he'd keep two on him for the sake of not breaking the rules.

- And even if Ash's idiocy wasn't OOC (which I debate since he showed a similar level of overconfidence in the first round of the Indigo League, but at least had three Pokemon on him), I think the referee was dumber for threatening to disqualify him, but not actually making good on doing so.
 
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I feel like a lot of fans are only choosing Sun & Moon over Black & White because Ash beat the Alola League. I bet if he had lost half of the Sun & Moon votes wouldn't have existed. I'm obviously going with Black & White since it was marginally better than the Alola stuff.
 
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I feel like a lot of fans are only choosing Sun & Moon over Black & White because Ash beat the Alola League. I bet if he had lost half of the Sun & Moon votes wouldn't have existed. I'm obviously going with Black & White since it was marginally better than the Alola stuff.
I don't know about that. While Ash winning the Alola League probably made some fans happier with SM, I don't think that was the only reason people are choosing it over BW. I don't think it would have taken away half of the SM votes if Ash had lost instead simply because SM generally has a better reception than BW did, at least from what I've seen. Even here, the reception seems to be more mixed than flat out hated. Like I mentioned earlier, I've seen plenty of fans enjoy SM well before the Alola League started, let alone before Ash won. It is still probably a factor, but I don't think it's that huge either. I've said that I prefer SM over BW throughout most of the series, so the Alola League victory really wouldn't matter that much in that regard.
 
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Pokémon Leagues always had an unduly effect on the fandom's views of different series, I never understand why, considering how little a part of it they were.
Really? I haven't noticed that myself. The general reception towards a league usually matches with how fans react to its specific series. At best, it's considered a highlight of a series, but I don't think it makes or breaks a series' overall popularity. The Kalos League had a more mixed to negative reception, but XY still seems to be pretty well received and popular as a whole despite that.
 
Mahuo Shojo Pearlo!
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You're not wrong -- well, on XY's end, anyway. The way people turned on the series so quickly made me pissed as heck.
Sometimes I wonder how many people bothered to stick around for the awesome Team Flare crisis. Heck, sometimes I even wonder if they just rage quit the moment Ash lost and didn't even finish XY131... :cry:

And I finally settled on SM. BW did a bunch of things right SM has done wrong--and both are even when it comes to terrible battles--but I went with SM because Ash has a better personality this time, and no one irks me as much as Iris (though Mallow and Sophocles have come close)
 
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I enjoy both arcs, but I’m choosing Best Wishes because I feel that Ash’s dynamic with Iris and Cilan was much more stronger than the dynamic he had with his classmates in Sun & Moon. People give Iris so much crap, but I loved her goal of becoming a dragon master because it’s a difficult goal and it involves bonding with Dragon types emotionally as well (a good example of this is how Clair bonded with a Shiny Druddigon before it decided to let her catch it). It’s not always about battling dragons and becoming stronger. The only thing I hated about Iris was her hypocrisy and that’s all. With Cilan, although he was a static character, he brought in wisdom, comic relief, and his food puns were really witty (even though I get annoyed with his “evaluation times” sometimes).

While I love Sun & Moon, I find myself going back to watch Best Wishes because I enjoyed Ash’s dynamic with Iris and Cilan because it had more depth and I loved the duo as characters. Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoy Ash’s classmates in Sun & Moon too, but I think that the only companions in SM that can hold a candle to Iris and Cilan are Lillie and Kiawe, and that’s all. While Lana, Sophocles, and Mallow were okay characters and I do enjoy them, I think that they didn’t really get enough focus like Lillie and Kiawe did.

One thing that Sun & Moon did a lot better than Best Wishes was the Pokémon league, hands down. People (I will admit I was one of them) hated Sun & Moon and felt that it was the second worst series behind Best Wishes until the league came along. Sun & Moon comes off as okay to me because I didn’t find it as interesting as Diamond & Pearl, BW, the Kanto Series, and XY. But while I disagree with the Unova league being the worst league, it’s still my second most hated league for me (like I said a million times before on here).

Despite the horrible reputation that BW has, I do think that it was a lot better than the Johto arc (except the Johto League was a million times better than the Unova one and Ash wasn’t an idiot).
 
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At least you tried...
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The main opinion I see on XY now is that it was a good series but the league disappointed people rather than it's reputation completely zeroing out; there was a bit of "worst series ever" for a bit but it seems to have mellowed out.
 
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I feel like a lot of fans are only choosing Sun & Moon over Black & White because Ash beat the Alola League. I bet if he had lost half of the Sun & Moon votes wouldn't have existed. I'm obviously going with Black & White since it was marginally better than the Alola stuff.
How about you respond directly to my previous two posts then? I'm thinking even if you still disagree, you'd at least understand and appreciate where the BW hate comes from.

But to recap them currently:

1. Dazzling the Nimbasa Gym on several counts. To start with you could argue that he put all of his faith in Krabby/Kingler for Round 1 of the Indigo League. Ok, but he still had two Pokemon on him just in case even if he didn't use them.

Even being generous that he might still be dense:

- He tends to have morals and some respect for the rules, and going as far back to Hoenn with Norman as an example, yeah going onto a 3 on 3 match with only a single Pokemon means that Ash was breaking a major rule.

- And playing devils advocate that Ash was still in character? Why did the referee not end the match and disqualify him? She even threatened to do so.

2. Many people including held the opinion that SM was better even before Ash's win. Why else would we expect him afterall to win? Even then we figured he wouldn't lose to say a rookie trainer who didn't even have a full team.

Heck, for all flaws SM have, his performance in the Nimbasa Gym match and his loss in the Unova League, plus other BW flaws feel less like the usual bad writing and more like contempt from the writers towards viewers.

3. Also as ridiculous as Ash losing to a starting trainer is, nothing was riding on this rivalry.

- Paul: It's about proving that his method is superior and convincing a jerk hole not to abuse his own Pokemon.

- Gary: Based on them starting on the same day and in the same town and Ash proving that a bad start doesn't prevent a victorious end.


Ash heating Trip "because he beat him" sounds like something you'd see in Beyblade.
 
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For example,, BW only became "WORST SERIES EVER" after the league, and the fandom's reactions to XY turned from "BEST SERIES EVER" to "LOL, GREATEST DISAPPOINTMENT" in a single episode.
I don't remember people saying that BW was the worst series only after the League. There was a lot of negativity towards BW from pretty much the moment Ash lost to Trip. Ash losing to Cameron certainly didn't help matters, but the reception here was pretty bad well before the Unova League, so I don't think that played that huge of a factor as to why BW still has a more negative reception.

Now I do remember the quick and immense negative reactions to Ash losing the Kalos League, but I don't think that made people hate XY. Most people were just upset with how Ash lost seemingly just to maintain the status quo, how overpowered Alain's Charizard was and how rushed the Kalos League itself was. It made the Kalos League more disappointing, but unlike with Ash's Unova League defeat, I think that the backlash cooled down after awhile because of the Team Flare arc. Most reactions to the tail end of XY were still pretty positive from what I remember. XY still seems to be a popular and overall well received series, so I really don't think that the Kalos League had a huge negative effect on its popularity.
 
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I don't remember people saying that BW was the worst series only after the League. There was a lot of negativity towards BW from pretty much the moment Ash lost to Trip.
But it only became widespread after the league.
Now I do remember the quick and immense negative reactions to Ash losing the Kalos League, but I don't think that made people hate XY.
Of course, since XY was much more well-received compared to BW, so it's negative impact was relatively small.
How about you respond directly to my previous two posts then?
No one is saying that those parts of BW were great or good, or anything decent for that matter. But you admit that it's weird to point out BW's gym battles and rivals, when SM hadn't got much better in neither of those cases.
 
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No one is saying that those parts of BW were great or good, or anything decent for that matter. But you admit that it's weird to point out BW's gym battles and rivals, when SM hadn't got much better in neither of those cases.
Yeah except:
1. The rivalry on SM was at least relaxed whereas BW tried to make it serious business without earning that right. Again look at my take on Gary and Paul VS Trip.

2. Even if Ash's performance in the Nimbasa Gym was in character, still don't see why the referee didn't disqualify him for breaking Gym rules.

Look regardless of ones opinion, I think it's fair to ask for a more thorough and direct disagreement. Plus it makes the discussions more entertaining.
 
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1. The rivalry on SM was at least relaxed whereas BW tried to make it serious business without earning that right.
I don't see it. If anything, BW was really not serious about any of its rivalries.
2. Even if Ash's performance in the Nimbasa Gym was in character, still don't see why the referee didn't disqualify him for breaking Gym rules.
Because its gym leader accepted it, and her words is apparently final? Same as how all SM trials had rules based on Island Kings' whims.
 
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