BW or SM?

[Antiyonder]

I don't see it. If anything, BW was really not serious about any of its rivalries.

Ash had the same level of anger/annoyance towards Trip that he did towards the guy that abused or abandoned his Pokemon.

Sounds like taking things serious to me.

Because its gym leader accepted it, and her words is apparently final? Same as how all SM trials had rules based on Island Kings' whims.

Did Ash intentionally break the rules of the trials though? I mean even if you believe that his idiocy in the Nimbasa Gym was in character, the other problem is that bring a single Pokemon to 3 VS 3 match is kind of against the rules.


And I don't think this can be stressed enough, but normally I try to avoid believing that a writer's slip up is by intent. SM, and even other seasons have their own writing issues, but BW honestly feels like it's a deliberate middle finger/f you to viewers expecting any dignity from Ash.

Even the worst of SM arguably doesn't have that vibe.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Ash had the same level of anger/annoyance towards Trip that he did towards the guy that abused or abandoned his Pokemon. Sounds like taking things serious to me.

I don't remember anything serious like that. Which episode?

Did Ash intentionally break the rules of the trials though? I mean even if you believe that his idiocy in the Nimbasa Gym was in character, the other problem is that bring a single Pokemon to 3 VS 3 match is kind of against the rules.

Even if it's the worst gym ever, Nimbasa Gym is still just one gym out of eight.

 

[Hidden Mew]

You're forgetting that it's also a result of Ash receiving a trophy on the escalator.

I'm not sure what you mean by trophy on the escalator.

But it only became widespread after the league.

I'm still not so sure about that. Maybe I'm just too focused in on how BW was received here throughout its run, but I don't think it was particularly popular compared to other series even before the Unova League happened.

Of course, since XY was much more well-received compared to BW, so it's negative impact was relatively small.

That's why I don't quite understand the notion that Leagues play a significant factor in regards to a series' popularity. That didn't really happen with the Kalos League despite the immense backlash.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

That's why I don't quite understand the notion that Leagues play a significant factor in regards to a series' popularity. That didn't really happen with the Kalos League despite the immense backlash.

Point was that leagues had an unduly effect, not that they're everything.

 

[sc190191]

I don't know about that. While Ash winning the Alola League probably made some fans happier with SM, I don't think that was the only reason people are choosing it over BW. I don't think it would have taken away half of the SM votes if Ash had lost instead simply because SM generally has a better reception than BW did, at least from what I've seen. Even here, the reception seems to be more mixed than flat out hated. Like I mentioned earlier, I've seen plenty of fans enjoy SM well before the Alola League started, let alone before Ash won. It is still probably a factor, but I don't think it's that huge either. I've said that I prefer SM over BW throughout most of the series, so the Alola League victory really wouldn't matter that much in that regard.

I just think its interesting that you think one event wouldn't have such a significant impact on how a series is received (SM in this case) when on this very thread many of the people who don't like BW are basing it off the events of 4-5 episodes in a 142 episode series (events that even those of us who like BW admit are quite bad). I agree with you, events from just a couple episodes shouldn't completely change how people receive a series, but it pretty clearly does and has (and not just for BW). At least for me, before I re-watched it I really specifically remembered and was bothered a lot by those things too, and combined with all the negativity here, it did really make me forget the better moments, but re-watching it and being prepared for those bad moments made me realize so much of the series was actually filled with really good episodes, even if the storyline wasn't quite as perfected as what preceded it (DP).

As far as the other main reason people don't like the series, I get some people will never like Iris, but I also think the teasing she did was a lot less frequent than people tend to remember, because they were so upset and up in arms about it that they act like it was a persistent and constant thing. It wasn't as constant as people tend to say, there were plenty of episodes without it, and plenty of times where Iris treated Ash well. On the contrary, the obnoxious ways people act in SM is pretty much constant, where even if you think you had a watchable scene, it is pretty frequently ruined by some meme nonsense or someone acting like a total fool.

It seems to me that the majority of people who don't like SM, the reasoning for disliking it is literally a complaint on the vast majority episodes, the style of the series, the way people consistently act, etc. and not due to a few episodes ruining the whole thing, which seems like a bit more legitimate reason to dislike something then deciding all of it was crap because of a few bad moments.

 

[LovelyChika123]

As far as the other main reason people don't like the series, I get some people will never like Iris, but I also think the teasing she did was a lot less frequent than people tend to remember, because they were so upset and up in arms about it that they act like it was a persistent and constant thing. It wasn't as constant as people tend to say, there were plenty of episodes without it, and plenty of times where Iris treated Ash well.

Dude, this website is anti-Iris, so I doubt you would get that much support here.

I actually feel the same way about Iris. I never thought that she was this raging bitch/demon that people made her out to be. I remember when I started watching BW early this year and thinking that I was going to hate Iris like everyone else did (because I would hear awful things said about her on Youtube and Pokemon’s Sub Reddit), but I was proven wrong. At first, I just thought that she was this petty, smug asshole towards Ash, and that’s it. To me, she came off as what TV Tropes calls a “jerk with a heart of gold” (meaning that despite you being an asshole, you still have good qualities to balance it out).

Her tearfully apologizing to her Excadrill for her inconsideration (and it finally obeying her again) and her caring about Ash’s Tepig when she angrily confronted the asshole trainer won me over in my eyes.

IDK maybe I don’t hate her because I don’t read too much into the series like some people do. It also may be because I love Misty as a character as well since Iris and Misty are similar to each other, and I never minded Misty’s assholish behavior towards Ash (because unlike Iris, Ash was unnecessarily mean to Misty too, so I always felt Misty was much more justified and it balanced out).

I mean, at the end of the day, Pokemon is a children’s anime and these characters are like 10. They aren’t going to be super nice to each other all the time, and if they were, this show would be boring to watch.

With Iris’ catchphrase, I thought she would reach Team Rocket-level of annoyance to me or she would be annoying like Orihime from Bleach when she kept on saying “Kurosaki- kun” so much.

 

[Johtohfiller]

Sometimes I wonder how many people bothered to stick around for the awesome Team Flare crisis. Heck, sometimes I even wonder if they just rage quit the moment Ash lost and didn't even finish XY131...

And I finally settled on SM. BW did a bunch of things right SM has done wrong--and both are even when it comes to terrible battles--but I went with SM because Ash has a better personality this time, and no one irks me as much as Iris (though Mallow and Sophocles have come close)

I was disappointed with the end of the Kalos League at first but after the Flare finale I didn't mind. Ash beating Alan would have been overshadowed by what came after anyway. I just wish Alan had beaten Ash with something better than "ha ha Charizard can take all the hits".

On the topic of Leagues in general, it seems like they're usually received more negatively than positively.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I just think its interesting that you think one event wouldn't have such a significant impact on how a series is received (SM in this case) when on this very thread many of the people who don't like BW are basing it off the events of 4-5 episodes in a 142 episode series (events that even those of us who like BW admit are quite bad). I agree with you, events from just a couple episodes shouldn't completely change how people receive a series, but it pretty clearly does and has (and not just for BW). At least for me, before I re-watched it I really specifically remembered and was bothered a lot by those things too, and combined with all the negativity here, it did really make me forget the better moments, but re-watching it and being prepared for those bad moments made me realize so much of the series was actually filled with really good episodes, even if the storyline wasn't quite as perfected as what preceded it (DP).

Most of the complaints I've seen about BW here aren't just centered on a few episodes. I also don't think that the Alola League has been considered a highlight for a lot of people who prefer SM either. Admittedly, it does seem to have a much more positive reception than I thought it would when they announced that anyone could take part in it, but I don't think it's been widely considered one of the best League arcs, at least from what I've seen on this site, despite Ash winning at the end.

I do agree that BW did have some really good episodes. I mainly remembered all of the things that I disliked about the series, so that combined with the negativity around here, made me think that stuff like NImbasa and Virbank Gym battles were the norm for the series. I was genuinely surprised with how much I did enjoy rewatching it.

As far as the other main reason people don't like the series, I get some people will never like Iris, but I also think the teasing she did was a lot less frequent than people tend to remember, because they were so upset and up in arms about it that they act like it was a persistent and constant thing. It wasn't as constant as people tend to say, there were plenty of episodes without it, and plenty of times where Iris treated Ash well. On the contrary, the obnoxious ways people act in SM is pretty much constant, where even if you think you had a watchable scene, it is pretty frequently ruined by some meme nonsense or someone acting like a total fool.

I really don't think Iris teasing Ash or her running gag of calling him a kid is a big factor as to why people dislike her. Most of the complaints I've seen about Iris over the years focus more on her personality and storyline more so than just teasing Ash. It felt more of a sign of her annoying personality than anything else. If that was the biggest problem with Iris, I don't think that fans would dislike her as much. None of the SM cast annoy me nearly as much as Iris. Some of the characters are more boring than others like Mallow and Sophocles, but I don't dread it when they get some focus. They're all pretty likable or at least tolerable, which I can't really say the same for Iris.

It seems to me that the majority of people who don't like SM, the reasoning for disliking it is literally a complaint on the vast majority episodes, the style of the series, the way people consistently act, etc. and not due to a few episodes ruining the whole thing, which seems like a bit more legitimate reason to dislike something then deciding all of it was crap because of a few bad moments.

Honestly, I've seen pretty valid points for why people would prefer either SM or BW here.I liked BW more so upon rewatching it than I expected, but most of my main issues, such as Iris, Bianca, the pacing and Ash's lack luster team, were still there. There were just more enjoyable moments and episodes than I remembered, although my opinion on BW Ash did improve much more than I thought it would. I really don't think that the notion that the Unova League ruined BW is that common, or at least I haven't noticed it. There were complaints about BW well before that arc happened, which is why I don't think the negative reception is due to a few bad moments.

 

[lonerlotad]

Easily Sun and Moon because it's more entertaining to watch. I'd also prefer the company of Mallow, Lilli, and Lana over Iris and Cilan.

 

[sc190191]

Most of the complaints I've seen about BW here aren't just centered on a few episodes. I also don't think that the Alola League has been considered a highlight for a lot of people who prefer SM either. Admittedly, it does seem to have a much more positive reception than I thought it would when they announced that anyone could take part in it, but I don't think it's been widely considered one of the best League arcs, at least from what I've seen on this site, despite Ash winning at the end.

I don't think the Alola League is the main reason people like SM either, I'm just pointing out there are literally several people on here who have mentioned a couple episodes as the main reason they don't like BW, centering around just 1 or 2 episodes for the argument that has taken up more of the thread than anything else, so for some (obviously not you or I) a single event does impact their opinion on the saga. As I have said before, I think it is much more likely that the support in favor of SM over BW stems from the fact that the people that don't like SM aren't very active here anymore and that the majority of newcomers during the SM era like it. SM is, essentially, a different type of show than what preceded it, while BW is more the same type of show, just not done quite as well as its predecessors.

I really don't think Iris teasing Ash or her running gag of calling him a kid is a big factor as to why people dislike her. Most of the complaints I've seen about Iris over the years focus more on her personality and storyline more so than just teasing Ash. It felt more of a sign of her annoying personality than anything else. If that was the biggest problem with Iris, I don't think that fans would dislike her as much. None of the SM cast annoy me nearly as much as Iris. Some of the characters are more boring than others like Mallow and Sophocles, but I don't dread it when they get some focus. They're all pretty likable or at least tolerable, which I can't really say the same for Iris.

I guess I don't get why people dislike her then. I always thought it was the "little kid" thing. That never bothered me much, because I thought it was obvious they were still friends and it was her way of teasing. I don't know what else is wrong with her personality. I think she is really fun, can be very humorous (especially with good sarcasm), is very adventurous, bold, very good to her Pokemon, and can even be a very good friend. I get that the Dragon Master goal wasn't well defined, but neither was Pokemon Master, I certainly would have preferred more concrete steps in her goal and more limelight, but that doesn't make her personality bad. I really always assumed it was just Ash fans who didn't like her because they couldn't stand to see their hero "insulted". I guess I may never understand why she is hated, because I personally really like her.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't think the Alola League is the main reason people like SM either, I'm just pointing out there are literally several people on here who have mentioned a couple episodes as the main reason they don't like BW, centering around just 1 or 2 episodes for the argument that has taken up more of the thread than anything else, so for some (obviously not you or I) a single event does impact their opinion on the saga. As I have said before, I think it is much more likely that the support in favor of SM over BW stems from the fact that the people that don't like SM aren't very active here anymore and that the majority of newcomers during the SM era like it. SM is, essentially, a different type of show than what preceded it, while BW is more the same type of show, just not done quite as well as its predecessors.

I'm not sure if the people who dislike SM aren't too active here anymore, if only because it isn't uncommon to see people dislike SM here, but it's definitely possible that it is less so compared to earlier in the series run. SM being a different type of show compared to the other series and BW being more of the same type of show are most likely key factors here though. SM is more experimental in a few areas and while I think it tackles its new ideas better than BW, I can understand how it can come off as too different. Rewatching BW really made me miss the traveling aspect of the series as well, which is kind of weird in a sense considering that I really don't think that they did a good job with covering the Unova region for multiple reasons.

I guess I don't get why people dislike her then. I always thought it was the "little kid" thing. That never bothered me much, because I thought it was obvious they were still friends and it was her way of teasing. I don't know what else is wrong with her personality. I think she is really fun, can be very humorous (especially with good sarcasm), is very adventurous, bold, very good to her Pokemon, and can even be a very good friend. I get that the Dragon Master goal wasn't well defined, but neither was Pokemon Master, I certainly would have preferred more concrete steps in her goal and more limelight, but that doesn't make her personality bad. I really always assumed it was just Ash fans who didn't like her because they couldn't stand to see their hero "insulted". I guess I may never understand why she is hated, because I personally really like her.

I'm pretty sure that it was never just the little kid catchphrase. It didn't help though. It often made Iris look like a hypocrite given that she'd act just as immature, if not more so, than Ash did. Plus, she'd get on his case for stuff he wouldn't know as someone not from the Unova region. At least Misty getting upset at Ash was usually pretty justified.

I just didn't find her particularly likable or interesting and her friendship with Ash felt pretty weak. Admittedly, they had some nice moments throughout the series, but I didn't think that Iris had a convincing friendship with either Ash or Cilan. Her Dragon Master goal not being well defined wouldn't be a problem if I felt like she made any believable accomplishment during the series, but I don't. Virtually everything was handed to her from Axew learning Dragon Rage to Dragonite on silver plate with little to no effort on her part. They also tried way too hard to make her look like such a gifted special trainer when her skills came off as average at best. They gave up on Axew evolving as her goal almost instantly, which wouldn't have been too bad if it made believable progress to become stronger instead of learning Outrage and Giga Impact right out of nowhere. I just didn't like her storyline or her personality. To be fair, there were times in BW where I felt her episodes could almost work for me and her love for Axew is quite genuine, but she was just too annoying and frustrating for me to really like or be invested in her storyline.

 

[SammyW27]

I think the biggest problem with Iris was her botched storyline.

We were told--and even SHOWN in flashbacks--that she was supposed to be a Dragon Master by training and evolving Axew. In one episode it was even shown to be its dream to evolve. Yet that quickly ended up being thrown out the window in favor of keeping Axew a mascot (even though it wasn't worthy of being one to begin with), and it became annoying, mostly useless, right down to it learning powerful Dragon-type move only to barely use them (there was one it only used once )

To make up for that, they randomly gave her an OP AF Dragonite that willingly joined her team, only to not listen to her much of the time. It was made even worse that they kept trolling us that it would finally listen to her, only to immediately go back to doing its own thing the next time she called it out.

Then there's how Excadrill wouldn't listen to her early, then did, and how Emolga didn't listen to her, then randomly did while losing her personality for 100 episodes. Hard to root for a gall whose problems seems to solve themselves.

The sad part is that she could've been handled better. I liked her wild child aspect. I liked that she had a lot of depth thanks to having a bunch of flashbacks. I liked that she was a Dragon-type expert fangirl. But no, they often made her a brat who had it too easy. And we get that enough from Ash and other members of the -tachii, thank you.

 

[LovelyChika123]

But no, they often made her a brat who had it too easy.

To be fair, Iris wasn’t the only character being a brat. Ash started off being a brat (but I thought he was still likable even though I liked OS Ash the least), and so was Max as well. While Misty was much more justified than Iris sometimes, even she could be just as childish. These characters are just children at the end of the days and I find it disturbing that I see fans calling Misty/Max/Iris demons (I hope & pray that these fans never have kids).

Also, May and Serena unrealistically won contests and showcases too and also had things handed to them without much work. Dawn was the only character in my opinion that didn’t have things handed to her so easily (also she got a Togekiss, and I barely saw complaints about that).

I'm pretty sure that it was never just the little kid catchphrase.

I really don’t want to argue with you because you’re an admin, but there are many websites that can prove you wrong. I’ve seen many complaints about how fans don’t like Iris simply because she kept calling Ash a kid.

 

[SammyW27]

^ Hey, I said we get that enough from other Ash-tachii members.

 

[LovelyChika123]

^ Hey, I said we get that enough from other Ash-tachii members.

What’s that supposed to mean? :-/

 

[SammyW27]

^ You already answered your own question with those examples you gave

 

[Antiyonder]

I'm pretty sure that it was never just the little kid catchphrase. It didn't help though. It often made Iris look like a hypocrite given that she'd act just as immature, if not more so, than Ash did. Plus, she'd get on his case for stuff he wouldn't know as someone not from the Unova region. At least Misty getting upset at Ash was usually pretty justified.

Yep. Also one of the times that Misty called Ash out on his actions, which was using Caterpie on Pidgeotto? She wasn't getting a good chuckle or taking pleasure at his mistake. She was rightfully chewing him out for not only poor understanding of type advantage, but endangering one of his own Pokémon.

I don't remember anything serious like that. Which episode?

A Rival Battle For Club Champ springs to mind. Sure it was unfair that he lost and all, but that little fit he threw after stating the fact and before Trip came in, plus his reaction to losing was a little too much considering that the worst Trip did was snubbing him. Not really on par with Paul abandoning his Ursaring or abusing Chimchar.

And you can't dispute that this rivalry had nothing riding on it.

Even if it's the worst gym ever, Nimbasa Gym is still just one gym out of eight.

I bring the episode up, because it was one of many common attempts to downplay Ash's capability, and arguably with the battle lasting for the episode, it was more so than say episode two where it's moment was at least restricted to a small segment of that ep.

Having only one Pokémon with him, poor planning and walking out of a Gym to the Center to get another Pokémon.


Of course I hope no one thinks that I look down on others for enjoying BW. I mean it may not have worked for me, but I have my share of favorites that aren't so good and could be said to be no better, if not worst.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be fair, Iris wasn’t the only character being a brat. Ash started off being a brat (but I thought he was still likable even though I liked OS Ash the least), and so was Max as well. While Misty was much more justified than Iris sometimes, even she could be just as childish. These characters are just children at the end of the days and I find it disturbing that I see fans calling Misty/Max/Iris demons (I hope & pray that these fans never have kids).

I don't think anyone thinks that Iris was the only main character who was a brat. That's pretty much why a lot of fans hate Max too. OS Ash definitely came off as immature and Misty was childish too. While I don't like Iris or Max, calling them demons is pretty harsh and kind of weird. A character being annoying or unlikable doesn't make them a monster.

Also, May and Serena unrealistically won contests and showcases too and also had things handed to them without much work. Dawn was the only character in my opinion that didn’t have things handed to her so easily (also she got a Togekiss, and I barely saw complaints about that).

I definitely remember seeing some complaints about Dawn getting a Togekiss. She was handed a fully evolved Pokemon on a silver plate, she didn't really have to do much with it and Ambipom deserved to get to the Grand Festival more so than Togekiss. While Iris isn't the only character who had things handed to her, I don't think that's a really good defense either. For all of the problems with both May and Serena's storylines, they still made believable progress over the course of their respective series and they did work towards their accomplishments. I don't really feel the same about Iris. Everything being handed to her on a silver plate was the norm for Iris's storyline. None of her accomplishments felt earned or justified, which I think is a key difference between Iris and the other female leads.

I really don’t want to argue with you because you’re an admin, but there are many websites that can prove you wrong. I’ve seen many complaints about how fans don’t like Iris simply because she kept calling Ash a kid.

Please don't think that you can't disagree with me because I'm an admin. Being part of the staff doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to disagree with me. If I felt like that, then there's no way I'd still be a mod, let alone an admin.

As for the point itself, I'm just going with what I've seen here and other sites. Based on that, Iris calling Ash a kid isn't the only reason why fans dislike her. It's often a factor, but it isn't the only or even main one. Most of the complaints boil down to her personality in general, which the whole little kid catchphrase would connect to, and/or just her overall storyline.

 

[Superior Serperior]

I'd say BW. I think even though it wasn't battle heavy it had lots of memorable and likable characters, was one of the best series when it came to making filler fun and entertaining, and Satoshi/Dent/Iris is really the only time since AG I've felt like a traveling group has had a really strong, fun, and interesting dynamic, and it makes me sad that they've kind of fallen to the wayside when it comes to discussion.

 

[Shadao]

Pokémon Leagues always had an unduly effect on the fandom's views of different series, I never understand why, considering how little a part of it they were.

Because the Pokémon League is the culmination of Ash's skills and lessons he has earned in the region. A showcase of his best.

I wouldn't say that SM is better than BW simply because of Ash winning the League. But the Unova League was the nail in the coffin of what people thought of Ash since Pikachu lost to a Snivy. A regression in ranks, and towards a trainer who should have been knocked out of the preliminaries. For people following Ash, this was not a good series to watch. Now this would not be a problem if BW was able to introduce something other than a Pokémon League for Ash to tackle. Like say Team Plasma. That would have been interesting. To see Ash come into conflict with N over ideologies. Would make up the League loss if handled properly.

Problem was that it wasn't. That arc came too little, too late. What Episode N has to offer was disconnected with the League. And Episode N was disconnected from the Decolore Islands. It's that disjointedness plus the abrupt goodbyes that gave the impression that the production did not care, and that I should care as well.

SM may have detractors over the art style and premise but it has never led to Ash's regression as a trainer. Sure, his opponents were a step backwards compared to the likes of XY, yet Ash still remained to be one of the best battlers in Alola. As such, it's hard to accuse Ash of regressing in Alola and thus expect him to regress in the League. I honestly anticipated that he may won because of that.

Ultimately, it isn't the League that affects a viewer's perspective. It is how Ash is treated as a trainer.