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Can the anime handle deep storylines?

Hellomello

Hello marshmallow
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After browsing this forum (as well as Serebii) for a while, I've noticed that there is a considerable amount of distaste towards the Team Plasma arc in BW; and the lukewarm reception seems to be, in part, due to how it's often considered to be a watered-down version of the game's plot. To add to that, I've even came across a post outright implying that the TP plot was mishandled due to it being "too deep" for the anime to incarnate properly, while the more "generic/technology-heavy" villain teams (i.e. TR, TG, TF) tend to receive better treatment (supposedly because they are easier to handle as they "abide more to the doomsday-villain trope" - as that post puts it).

Now, I don't necessarily agree with that post (as I personally don't think the BW plot was all that deep to begin with - but that's for another topic); however, that post did intrigue me, as it seems to be implying that the anime can't handle deep storylines.

So what's your opinion on this? Do you believe that the anime can tell deep storylines, or not?
 
People hated XY because it was so edgy/serious. People wouldn't like it.
"Edgy"/serious =/= depth.

XY was hardly avant-garde or provocative anyway, so using "edgy" to describe it is downright incorrect. It's not like it was grimdark gone wrong ("grimderp"), much less grimdark. If Pocket Monsters XY is edgy because it was serious, then Fullmetal Alchemist must be edgemania.
 
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I personally think that the Sun and Moon episode 21 was quite deep with its symbolism and message, so I don't think they can't its just it probably wouldn't work well with the target audience outside a single episode.

I also don't think XYZ was edgy it was trying too hard to be a serious story which led to it feeling a bit too much like a somewhat generic Shonen with Pokemon.
 
The deepest storyline was Mewtwo's (the movie, prequel and sequel). Sadly, it had little to do with the actual show.

I think that my second choice would be the Entei movie (loss of parents and a child's grief), then Larvitar's story (the loss of a mother from birth, again with a connection to the Unown) and finally the Lucario movie (war and sacrifice). Beyond that, I can't think of anything that is worthy of being called deep.

The SM plot isn't all that deep (at least how it is presented in-game), so I think the show can handle it with some changes.
 
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If we're talking depth in terms of multi-layered characters, plot meaning, and visual symbolism, then the entire Japanese Mewtwo arc, the third movie, the Yogiras arc in Jouto, the Lucario movie, and SM020 (in terms of child-friendly ways of handling the concept of death) were all pretty solid. Character-wise, the former two gave plenty of dimension to the antagonists without them being doomsday villains. With Shudou being the only writer on the team that very plainly wanted the series to be more than what it was on the surface (see: his novels and blog entries), I think the attempts at "depth" were cut down heavily after his departure. But I do think that the anime could still handle a meaningful set of plot and characters if the production at least had any desire to do so, or perhaps, had the resources to. It also might help if they bothered to outsource directors, chief writers, and/or episode directors from other studios who are more versed in crafting such storylines, which honestly I have a hard time imagining happening for a series with a simple and childish image like the Pokemon anime.

For all intents and purposes - giving the writing team a ridiculous amount of benefit of the doubt - it's not absurd to presume that Episode N could have expanded the moral question of the Plasma arc in the games into something more if they actually tried to aim to do so, even with the setback of the original anime Plasma plot being retconned due to unfortunate circumstances. I'd go as far as to say that the whole Mewtwo + Dr. Fuji + Rocket plot in the anime was a lot more interesting and deep than what was presented simply and separately in the games (of course, again, Shudou was in charge). Hopefully they do the same with SM's in-game plot to anime format.
 
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I think that SM020's depth was undermined by how quickly Litten got over its grief. And I get the feeling that this plot will never be referenced again.
 
I think it can, as long as the plot is made understandable for children.

Besides, the games themselves aren't that deep to begin with. They can offer some food for thought regarding some matters, sure, but the narrative is still good enough and comprehensible for children and adults alike.

The real question is... do they wanna bother with that?
 
It's not a question of can/can't, but one of will/won't, I think.

The anime typically goes for simplicity, for better and worse. It doesn't want to ask questions that have complicated answers, perhaps because it simply doesn't want to commit the time to adequately exploring them. It's so busy showing off all the new Pokemon in various filler episodes it never has the time for proper story arcs.

Which is why I say will/won't, because it's not like they have to do it that way. There are ways of integrating the new Pokemon into an actual story, or even creating interesting stories around the Pokemon. But within its current structure, it'd be difficult to tell a so-called deep story and do it justice.

In the case of villain plots, the majority tend to be black/white morality with bad guys doing bad things. For B/W's, plot, though (putting aside whether it's deep or not) a lot depends on the moral question that's posed to the player and having an antagonist of the opposite view. For the Best Wishes anime, that moral question (about whether it's right to capture Pokemon and hold them in servitude to humanity) is, IIRC, never posed to Ash or anyone on the cast. So the audience, by proxy, never gets to answer the question either. In which case, the Best Wishes villain plot just becomes another black and white morality tale with a generic villain.
 
XY was hardly avant-garde or provocative anyway, so using "edgy" to describe it is downright incorrect. It's not like it was grimdark gone wrong ("grimderp"), much less grimdark. If Pocket Monsters XY is edgy because it was serious, then Fullmetal Alchemist must be edgemania.
"Being edgy" is one of the most common criticisms of XY. Whether it's true or not is another matter and depends on fans.
 
Yes, it can hold a deep plot. The very first episode of Pokémon deconstructs the whole experience of being a trainer. The fifth episode deals with Brock's family issues. The Charmander episode deals with abusive relationship between trainers and Pokémon. And then you got something like Ash's rivalry with Paul. Or Dawn's first appeal loss in Hearthome City. Or the Winding Woods episode. The reason why you make think otherwise is that the games themselves rarely go into deeper themes until recently. Ruby and Sapphire's story regarding Team Magma and Aqua was poorly thought out and it wasn't until the remakes that their potential was used efficiently. The anime likewise has the same growing issues. The Team Galactic plot may have some implications behind Cyrus's motives but for many players, he was a monster that needed to be stopped.

Team Plasma was the rare exception to the shallow plots. With deeper meanings and themes. The reasons why the anime could not do them properly has to do with two unfortunate circumstances: 2011 Earthquake and the anime team being caught flat footed with B2W2, which features an openly evil Team Plasma.

Despite what some people may say, Team Flare is not deep in the games. There was never a legit person within Team Flare that truly believed in Lysandre's goals in a benevolent way. They call the world selfish, yet act selfish themselves. Lysandre's nobleness is told rather than shown.

As for Team Skull and the Aether Foundation, wait and see.
 
"Being edgy" is one of the most common criticisms of XY. Whether it's true or not is another matter and depends on fans.

I have no idea how anyone could consider XY edgy. It was more serious at times than we normally get from a Pokemon series, especially with stuff like the Team Flare arc, and I could see people considering it too serious for Pokemon in that same vein, but edgy? I thought that term was normally used for shows trying too hard to be dark and serious, which I don't think would apply to XY, at least to the point of being edgy.

As for the question itself, I think that the anime can handle deep storylines. There are examples from some of the series, as well as the movies, that showed that they could have deep storylines, or at least deeper than what the show normally tackles. I also think it's more of a matter if the writers want to do that more than anything else. Maybe they don't think that they have to do that in order to attract kids.
 
Livelihood, lol. We're talking about kids who do whatever they feel like doing. SM demonstrates that fairly well, but it's always been the case.

Getting emo over a loss is something that a good parent would mock. This video comes to mind (it's in Hebrew, but the context is loud and clear).
 
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In real life, probably, but in this universe, it's more akin to losing the world series.
 
Too bad that depth is something that can only be measured using real-life standards. Not that it matters since getting emo over losing the world series... is egotistical rather than deep.

To be fair to Dawn, her mom overshadowing her does have some depth to it. But it's light compared to Brock and Misty's family issues.

As for Ash, the only loss that felt somewhat deep was the one in the Kanto League since it was a result of Charizard's disobedience. Ash-Greninja taking time to master its powers was not deep in the slightest, being a standard shonen trope.
 
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Yeah, no. Being emo over a loss (let alone in an out of character way) is not deep in my book. Pokemon competitions are not serious business.

I disagree (respectfully of course). Even if losing a contest isn't the end of the world, Dawn's journey itself was handled as serious business. Here's why:

I'm not sure if you watched DP, but Dawn's story arc was very heavy. Maybe her first lost at the appeal stage was not dramatic enough but by the second, I felt devastated for her (though was excited a bit because I had a feeling it would lead to something great). She also was shown to be in deep thought about her career choices after come around Maylene time (though if I recall she battled to regain confidence and help Maylene get her's back), and the Milktank episode showed Dawn very worked up about her recent track record.

Dawn also just had traded Ambipom(her release also was a sad moment for Dawn I might add. I remember Dawn was worried when she saw Ambipom disappear in her release episode, only to find her practicing ping-pong. She released it so it could have a better life, yet you could see the pain throughout the episode of her having to say goodbye). It showed even with a trade and evolution, Dawn still was coming off short. Mamoswine's arc, Pachirisu's capture and sick episode, and the traumatic embarrassment of Plusle and Minun in her childhood and in the battle against Ursula (which she rose above in typical Dawn fashion)-also were apart of Dawn's journey and showed her struggle, self-doubt, survival instincts, and her rising above it.

Back to Dawn's arc as a whole, even after Dawn won the Wallace Cup (which she was humble about but during very skeptical due to her recent losses), she still showed signs of second-guessing herself and then snapping herself out of it.

Even after Dawn won her 4th ribbon, she still lost two until getting her 5th. She in total lost 5 contests and won 5.

I never understand when people call Dawn's depression period emo. I think it devalues it. She had one of the best arcs of the series because it showed a long-hard journey of her dream. Which she took as serious business.

Hikari is my fav right behind Kasumi, so I get very passionate about her character.

Even when looking at May's rivalry with Harley, it's serious business. May was so forgiving and Harley was so untrustworthy. To find out twice (three times, yet the first two were devastating) that Harley had been playing her and that May risked her chances as a coordinator listening to a fraud is very deep in my opinion.
 
As for Ash, the only loss that felt somewhat deep was the one in the Kanto League since it was a result of Charizard's disobedience. Ash-Greninja taking time to master its powers was not deep in the slightest, being a standard shonen trope.

When it comes to the Winding Woods episode, that is not the reason why I myself considered it deep. Rather, it had more to do with Ash reminiscing his past (something that rarely occurs) and recalling why he wanted to be a trainer in the first place. In previous episodes where the focus on the "getting stronger" aspect, Ash's journey segment here is a refreshing look on Ash's character as a whole and what matters to him in the long run (Becoming a Master not out of a desire of becoming the strongest, but rather to embrace the journey and fun that come with it). It's that moment where I deemed Ash to be the better trainer than Alain.
 
Please note: The thread is from 7 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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