Bulbapedia Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

[SnorlaxMonster]

Japanese version trumps English version in a conflict.

Ì realize that's a very common opinion in the more hardcore parts of the fandom (and of many fandom). But we are an english-language fansite, addressing a userbase of English-language fans, who, in vast majority, play the english-language version of the game, and which, it appears, extends far beyond the hardcore fans (and certainly we want it to extend beyond hardcore fans!). To brush aside the version of the game they use is not okay.

That doesn't mean English always trump Japanese. There are plenty of circumstances that must be considered. But "Japanese trump English" as a general, default rule, is utterly, totally and completely unacceptable.

From a casual perspective, it is often possible to do it that way. However, all new content is produced with the Japanese version (and original intention in mind); it is simply not feasible to treat the English version as canon. It's perfectly fine to say "in the dub Bulbasaur used Whirlwind", but Bulbasaur didn't actually use Whirlwind. The English version is a presentation of the Japanese version; since we write in English, we use the English names, but the information from the Japanese version is more important. If there is English-exclusive content, there's nothing wrong with using it, but it is simply not practical to let the English version trump the Japanese version.

 

[Fig]

Okay. I need to say two things before I reply here.

1. What follows is a statement of fact about general orientations, purposes and priorities of Bulba. It's not advice or an opinion.
2. What follows is, however, not an order or a veto toward or against specific Pedia policies. How these translate to Pedia policy is very much up for discussion.

We are an English language site. While we attract people from other background than English, the vast majority of our userbase, especially the more casual (and thus more numerous) ones, are English-language people. Since our whole point is to provide a service to these people, we should tailor our services to be relevant to the majority of the userbase, and as such, relevant to the version of the (game/anime/etc) they are familiar with. In fact, being relevant to the need of these people (and thus relevant to the english versions) is very much at the top of our priority list.

Our policies absolutely need to reflect this.

---------------

I will add, as a personal opinion, that none of that means we have to disregard japanese, far from. While english sould probably be the default, there may be specific areas where there are sufficient reason to follow the Japanese versions instead.

 

[Blazios]

What of articles such as Gambler? Every single Gamer in FR/LG has a corresponding Gambler in R/B with the same Pokémon in the same location; they are the exact same, aside from name. Should they be split? (This isn't even going into the fact that they were most recently called PIs)

Should Mysticalman be split from Mystery Man despite the fact that the only Mysticalman is Eusine, a Mystery Man in HG/SS. Mysticalman already has a redirect to Mystery Man and the article already states that it once went under a different English name, what would splitting it into two serve, aside from causing confusion and creating a needlessly small article?

 

[Fig]

I already said that in cases where it's pretty much explicit that they're the same things (eg: remakes, serving the exact same game function, etc) they should be treated as the same thing on pedia.

Both of your cases very obviously falls under that as do Bell Tower/Tin Tower and a few others like that.

EDITED : to be less rough.

 

[Blazios]

Clearly I failed to notice that, you have my humblest apologies.

 

[Fig]

And mine as well. That was a little rougher than it should have been.

 

[Maverick Nate]

Deletion) Electric rodents

Merging) Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com

Mainspacing) Anime character recycling

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Splitting) Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas

Deletion) I personally think this article should be merged into Appendix:Fan terminology instead of deleted. Or at least moved to the appendix namespace.

Merging) Support. It's just an earlier version of the official site

Mainspacing) Support. An interesting concept that I would personally like to see in the mainspace.

Moving) Support. I believe this is to fix any confusion over this Mewtwo and the one from the Genesect movie. Shouldn't have needed to have discussion and could have just been fixed, imo.

Splitting) Support. These two specific machines have appeared way too often for them to just be shoved onto a list like this. I support the split.

 

[Force Fire]

On the Madame/Socialite issue, what was the case with CoolTrainer/Ace Trainer change? How was that handled? Did we wait until after Gen IV to figure out they were keeping Ace Trainer or did we just assume they were going to use Ace Trainer from then on?

Deletion) Electric rodents

Support. A fanon term that isn't really defined in my opinion (and by defined, I mean consistent in terms of stats, evolution etc.. which I assume is why psuedo legendary has an article).

I wouldn't mind it getting mention in the fanon terminology appendix page.

Merging) Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com

Support. This page should have been added into the pokemon.com article instead of creating a separate one.

Mainspacing) Anime character recycling

Support. An interesting article that I think would be notable. Also saves people from adding "A character has been recycled in this episode" in the trivia section (not that anyone has added them).

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Support. Thought this would've been done ages ago.

Splitting) Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas

Support. I find them important enough to get there own articles.

 

[Sgv_Sth]

- Deletion - Merge per Maverick Nate. A fan term is still a fan term, even when not canon. As long as there is evidence that it is a used term, it should be merged.

- Merging - Merge. The article states that it is now merged with the main website.

- Mainspacing - No Suggestion. This is something that I find interesting, but I am not fully sure how it should be handled as an article. A minor problem is if it should be a list instead of an article; a second one is if there is a better way to use the information on it, though it should be used in some way.

- Moving - Move. After reading the discussion on the talk page, especially ArcToraphim's comments, it seems that the best way is to move the article to the suggested location of Mewtwo (original series) as it debuted in the original series and made its most important appearances during the series.

- Splitting - Split. Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Magikarp submarine have made enough appearances within the series to have their own articles.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Deletion) Electric rodents

Support...something. Merging/moving elsewhere is fine. I don't really think it has altogether enough significance (in general fandom or official canon) to deserve its own page. There are similar pages that could be made, it's just getting special treatment that I don't see it/they particularly deserve...

Merging) Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com

Support. There's way too little on the former page (and nothing even links there...), and if the sites have merged, it'd be nicer to just put the small amount of Pokemon-games.com info somewhere on the Pokemon.com page.

Mainspacing) Anime character recycling

Support, I guess. Looks alright...but I'm not greatly invested in the anime in general.

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Support. With the M16 Mewtwo already sitting at "(Best Wishes series)", I don't really think the "original" Mewtwo should remain at just "(anime)".

Splitting) Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas

Support. I would consider the Meowth balloon absolutely iconic, with the Magikarp sub shortly behind it. If they're capable of being full articles, I say absolutely do it.

 

[Pokemaster97]

Deletion) Electric rodents

Merging) Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com

Mainspacing) Anime character recycling

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Splitting) Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas

Deletion) Electric Rodents Support This is in no way official enough to be a mainspace article. This would be better on the Appendix:Fan terminology page if anything. I personally don't think it would work as a plain appendix page by itself though.

Merging) Support. It was part of the official site at one point, so I don't see why not.

Mainspacing) Support. I would like to see this get mainspaced, but it seems a little...blank/unfinished looking. Maybe if we can clean it up a little before mainspacing that would be ideal.

Moving) Support. Yes please, this debate has been going on for far too long.

Splitting) Support. These machines are predominant enough to warrant them having their own separate article.

 

[pumpkinking0192]

Deletion) Electric rodents

Merging) Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com

Mainspacing) Anime character recycling

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Splitting) Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas

Strong agree with deleting Electric rodents (or moving it to the Appendix), merging the Pokemon.com pages, and moving Mewtwo.

Tentative agree with mainspacing anime character recycling, though I agree with Pokemaster97 that it seems aesthetically lacking at the moment.

Tentative agree with splitting the Team Rocket balloon and submarine; they're certainly notable enough for their own pages, but there isn't much information about them in the mechas article at the moment, so they'd almost need to be built up from scratch. It might be a good idea to userspace them first to ensure they're of sufficient quality before entering the mainspace.

Moving) Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series)

Support. Thought this would've been done ages ago.

Moving) Support. I believe this is to fix any confusion over this Mewtwo and the one from the Genesect movie. Shouldn't have needed to have discussion and could have just been fixed, imo.

Moving) Support. Yes please, this debate has been going on for far too long.

I don't mean to be rude, but it's indefinitely move-protected and all of you are staff members. You've had the power to immediately fix it all this time, and the rest of us haven't had any recourse except to hope a staff member notices, yet now you're complaining that it hasn't already been done. I'm just saying.

 

[Pokemaster97]

I don't mean to be rude, but it's indefinitely move-protected and all of you are staff members. You've had the power to immediately fix it all this time, and the rest of us haven't had any recourse except to hope a staff member notices, yet now you're complaining that it hasn't already been done. I'm just saying.

Just because we have the power to do things doesn't mean we can just go ahead and make a big move without talking to the 20 or so staff first. I have the power to delete the main page, but does that mean I should do it? I was saying that we (as a staff) should have had that discussed and dealt with a long time ago, yet we didn't, which isn't good. We're not perfect, just like every other user on this site, I was just making a comment on what I observed.

 

[Maverick Nate]

Tentative agree with splitting the Team Rocket balloon and submarine; they're certainly notable enough for their own pages, but there isn't much information about them in the mechas article at the moment, so they'd almost need to be built up from scratch. It might be a good idea to userspace them first to ensure they're of sufficient quality before entering the mainspace.

We have waaay too many mainspace pages in the userspace as it is. Articles don't need to be perfect in order to be in the mainspace. We have improvement tags for this sort of reason. I think that simply having small incomplete articles on the two to start will cause people to want to improve them, instead of having them sit in the userspace for far too long and not be visible to the public (easily). The subject matter is popular enough that I think many people will want to jump on the task at hand.

It's important to remember that preparing pages in the userspace should be reserved more for articles that A) are of questionable notability to be in the mainspace right away, B) are templates needing to be tested in order to work out all potential problems, or C) are pages over a subject that nothing like it has ever really been covered before. Though that doesn't mean people can't, for example, have personal project pages that they'd like to work on themselves before others get involved. It's just that creating any old page in the userspace shouldn't be the first go to action.

 

[MAGNEDETH]

DMMMS!

DELETE Electric rodents. If we got rid of the Novelty Pokémon page, then there's no reason to keep this page around.

MERGE Pokémon-games.com into Pokémon.com. There's nothing on the games page, and I doubt there will be enough to fill it up.

DO NOT Mainspace Anime character recycling right now. I really like this article, but it is seriously lacking in content right now. Also might work better as a table.

I have no opinion on Moving Mewtwo (anime) to Mewtwo (original series). If this is in line with other anime Pokémon, then I say go for it.

Not sure I agree with Splitting Team Rocket's Meowth balloon and Team Rocket's Magikarp submarine splitting off from Team Rocket's mechas. If someone can prove they can fill a page, then yes. Otherwise, perhaps they could just have their own section on the Mecha page? Above the mecha table?

 

[Maverick Nate]

Deletion) Big Four

Merging) Medal (Generation VI) into Medal

Mainspacing) Hugh (Adventures) (Note: This is the same as splitting this section from the Hugh article.)

Moving) Element Keychain books to Pokémon Keychain Books

Splitting) First Pokémon splitting off from Starter Pokémon

Deletion) This is a very dated term that I don't think people really understand anymore. All important information has been taken to other articles and I think it is time for this one to go.

Merging) I have a feeling Medals are here to stay, and if we were to merge this onto the same page, it would get very convoluted quickly. The pages should probably just be moved to meaningful names in the mainspace, and the main "Medal" page disambiguated appropriately.

Mainspacing) All the information there seems to fit on the Hugh page pretty well on its own. I don't think it is necessary, but I honestly haven't read his part of the manga.

Moving) I have no complaints here. Seems fine and more appropriate.

Splitting) I don't really understand why there is a distinction being made for this split. Aren't First Pokémon pretty much just starter Pokémon? I'm leaning towards disagree

 

[pumpkinking0192]

Splitting) I don't really understand why there is a distinction being made for this split. Aren't First Pokémon pretty much just starter Pokémon? I'm leaning towards disagree

Just gonna throw my two cents in here for this one: reading the talk page will give a fuller explanation of why the split was suggested, but basically, it's to separate the groups of Grass/Fire/Water starters (which are distinctly handled in a very specific way in almost all media) from just any old Pokemon that a Trainer has as their first one (which are handled very helter-skelter in many different ways). IMO the debate should be whether that distinction means a split is necessary, because the distinction definitely does exist, and it's completely false to say they're "pretty much just" the same thing.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Splitting) I don't really understand why there is a distinction being made for this split. Aren't First Pokémon pretty much just starter Pokémon? I'm leaning towards disagree

The "problem" is, currently, if you say "starter Pokemon" (and if you link it, or if someone searches it (...see also the Starter Pokemon template)), our page lists a bunch of "starters" that aren't just the Fire/Grass/Water trios. So it's tough to even say something like "All starter Pokemon are unevolved Pokemon" when someone can look at the page and say, "Then what's with Colosseum and Poketopia..." Or "No starter Pokemon could be caught wild before Gen VI", when there's Pikachu (and/or Eevee, according to the Yellow section of the template).

Not that I'm so worried about such "problems" to feel that the page needs to be split, in any case.

 

[Soulweaver]

Merging) Medal (Generation VI) into Medal

Merging) I have a feeling Medals are here to stay, and if we were to merge this onto the same page, it would get very convoluted quickly. The pages should probably just be moved to meaningful names in the mainspace, and the main "Medal" page disambiguated appropriately.

Well, that page has already both a merge and a move template because I thought both were valid, justifiable solutions, but that said, I myself also like the idea of separate pages more exactly for the reason you mentioned: it seems likely they will use the idea again and thus the size would necessitate a split sooner or later. Minimiscience also supported this idea on the talk page (with the difference that Medal should have general information on the system rather than just a disambiguation, which would also seem a good idea in my opinion) and suggested the names List of Medals in Pokémon Black 2 and White 2 for the page currently at Medal and List of Medals in Pokémon X and Y for this page.

 

[Zesty Cactus]

Deletion) Big Four

Merging) Medal (Generation VI) into Medal

Mainspacing) Hugh (Adventures) (Note: This is the same as splitting this section from the Hugh article.)

Moving) Element Keychain books to Pokémon Keychain Books

Splitting) First Pokémon splitting off from Starter Pokémon

Deletion: I suggest deletion. My opinion is on the talk page, if you'd like to read it.
Merging: I say do not merge. The article is gonna be way too big if we have both together so something like "Medal (Generation V)" and "Medal (Generation VI)" seems more likely to me. Also if we make a disambiguation page don't forget to include Master Medals
Mainspacing: I know he's based on a main rival from the games, but for now, I don't think his impact on the plot was significant enough for his own article when we can fit it in Hugh's page just fine really.
Moving: Well, I put the move tag there so I agree with it. My remarks are on the talk page again.
Splitting: I have been following the talk page debate for a while. I have not really made a decision yet but I am leaning toward disagree.