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Contest Charizard vs Blaziken

How exactly are you justifying that Blaziken will "always" win against Charizard? If your basing this purely on Blaziken's DW ability, then you are incorrect.

I personally merit both exactly the same in battle and Blaziken's DW ability makes it more likely to win, but strip their DW abilities away for a second and base the battle on their original abilities.

Who would win then? Well for one Charizard would be faster naturally, so would be able to make the first move with a powerful Air Slash. So Blaziken would faint in that case scenario before it could even make a Stone Edge.

So in conclusion with their DW abilities Blaziken is more likely to win. but without them Charizard is more likely the victor in battle. In the games I can justify that they are both equal and not be biased.

make blaziken hold choice scarf and it will outspeed charizard. and then use any rock attack and charizard is dead.period.

@ghaskan

I want to change who i voted for. Possible?
 
Lol I was saying I like both Pokemon, as I stated in my post I merit both Pokemon for their factual qualities in game. My argument was that in different circumstances either one can beat the other equally in game. Perhaps I didn't make my post clear because I'm focusing on "in game" where Wifi is unpredictable, so a foe isin't always going to have a Speed Boost Blaziken, or a Charizard with Air Slash.

I'm not arguing against facts here I'm actually stating a fact about unpredictability in game, as I focus on the Pokemon games themselves and there are always different circumstances when it comes to Wifi battles.

I also have a Speed Boost Blaziken and a Charizard on my Pokemon Black game, so this isin't about what I like best either ok.

Wifi is still part of the main game. Some would even say that its the only point of the game but thats another matter. And in Wifi, evey Blaziken will have Speed Boost.

Both Air Slash and Stone Edge can miss. I just never took that into consideration because it makes things less complicated. If we leave in the unpredictability factor, then we leave some part of the battle to lady luck and if thats what we do, then we can't debate which Pokemon would win can we?
 
Wifi is still part of the main game. Some would even say that its the only point of the game but thats another matter. And in Wifi, evey Blaziken will have Speed Boost.

Both Air Slash and Stone Edge can miss. I just never took that into consideration because it makes things less complicated. If we leave in the unpredictability factor, then we leave some part of the battle to lady luck and if thats what we do, then we can't debate which Pokemon would win can we?

Hmm I agree I do have Blaziken and I must say that it is a powerful Pokemon and you do have a fine point. Also my experiences with Blaziken have been much better in battle compared to Charizard (especially with Speed Boost).

I usually cast my votes on the premise of battle and you are right if they are at their full potential. @ghaskan could you re-cast my vote for Blaziken instead of Charizard?
 
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Hmm I agree I do have Blaziken and I must say that it is a powerful Pokemon and you do have a fine point. Also my experiences with Blaziken has been much better in battle compared to Charizard (especially with Speed Boost).

I usually cast my votes on the premise of battle and you are right if they are at their full potential. @ghaskan could you re-cast my vote for Blaziken instead of Charizard?

Duty noted.
 
What if blaziken + charizard just had their normal abilities?

Charizard used air slash
Blaziken Fainted...
 
What if blaziken + charizard just had their normal abilities?

Charizard used air slash
Blaziken Fainted...

Yes, but If you have to gimp Blaziken by taking away its ability in order for Charizard to defeat it, isn't that just a testament to how powerful Blaziken is and how thoroughly it thrashes Charizard when their both at their prime?
 
I choose Charizard. I'm not too fond of Blaziken's design.
I'm not a competitive battler, so it doesn't really matter how strong they are that much, unless they're absolutely atrocious even against NPC's.
Edit: And it now seems that I have made Charizard and Blaziken exactly equal in votes. :)
 
What if blaziken + charizard just had their normal abilities?

Charizard used air slash
Blaziken Fainted...

You could do that. But then that would be like a boxing match where you intentionally broke one boxer's arm and still made him fight a fully fit opponent. Of course the fully fit opponent is gonna win.

For this debate, we must assume both Pokemon are at their optimal best otherwise there isn't any point in debating all. In such a case, Blaziken always wins.

How many times must I repeat this? Guys, Charizard doesn't have to be able to beat Blaziken in a battle for you to like it more. You could just vote for Charizard and say you think its cooler or whatever and be done. Nobody is gonna fault you for that. I like Salamence more than Dragonite but I can never deny that Dragonite these days will always beat in battle.

I've spent like the last 5 pages continuously trying to say this yet people seem determined on gimping Blaziken by taking away its DW ability to make Charizard win.

Guys, Pokemon Battles don;t work that way. DW abilities are now a major part of Pokemon and are here to stay. So saying that we should only consider their 'original' abilities is pretty fail on your part. Thats like me saying we should only consider Charizard Red/Green moveset where it couldn;t even learn fly and make it face a Blaziken wiht Speed Boost. That would be fail. Please stop bring up such nonsensical logic. You like Charizard more? Good for you. Don't let anyone try to change your opinion of it. Similarly don't let your opinion try to change simple fact. Blaziken always beats Charizard.
 
Well, I agree with most of the above posts on the topic of expressing your own opinion. Just wanna say that Charizard is currently in the same tier as Combusken... so yeah. Blaziken all the way!
 
Who do you prefer?

The 3Gen starter. Even though I don't like the 3rd Gen and its Pokemon very much, there are some Pokemon that look very good. I like both the design and strength of this Pokemon.
 
I would take Charizard over Blaziken (or any other fire starter) any day. I don't play competitively, so tiers mean nothing to me. I've always had a personal preference for the fire dragon, being that it was my first and favorite pokemon, but I've also never particularly cared for Blaziken either. I felt its line was unique, especially being the first of the fire/fighting starters, but was poorly designed.

Though realistically, a Blaziken with with a rock-type move such as Stone Edge or Rock slide could easily take down a Charizard.
 
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Good to know people like ^ can make thier opinions without ignoring all logic, kinda like what Ranger Jack Walker mentioned.
 
Envoy, in every single one of your scenarios you assume the Blaziken player knows exactly what the Charizard player is going to use, so you're not really proving any point.

Thats because Charizard, like Blaziken now, is way too easy to predict.

In Blaziken's case however, you need to have a counter or all that prediction does't count for anything.

Did some Damage Calcs.

Lets assume that both players know what they are facing and have specially prepared their Pokemon for the battle.

If we go with physical Charizard:

EVs:
Attack-252
Speed-252

Using Fly on:

Defensive Blaziken HP-252
Defense-252
(Since I know I'm up against a Physical Charizard

Damage taken: 77.5-91.2% Fails to OHKO. The same Blaziken does 196.6-231.6% damage. OHKO.

Keep in mind thats Blaziken with 0 attack EVs.

Special Charizard
EVs:
Sp.Attack-252
Speed-252

Uses Air Slash on:

Special Defensive Blaziken
Sp.Defense-252
HP-252

Damage taken: 74.6-90.7% Fails to OHKO. Blaziken OHKOs again with Stone Edge(196.6-231.6% damage).

So an Offensive Charizard will always lose to a Defensive Blaziken.

Lets reverse the situation and have Blaziken be Offensive and Charizard be Defensive.

Once Blaziken inevitably outspeeds Charizard, it OHKOs with 151.1% - 178.9% damage.



So yeah, Charizard's never gonna beat Blaziken if both players know what their up against.

Since no self respcting Blaziken is gonna be Defensive and no Charizard worth its skin is gonna have Fly, the battle pretty much boils down to this:

Blaziken used Protect!
Charizard used Air Slash!
Blaziken protected itself!
Blaziken used Stone Edge!
Its Super Effective!
Charizard fainted!

U mad bro?

Now, I was surfing this thread out of boredom when I come along this. It is very respectable that you used calculations to convey your point instead of just babbling "Stone Edge OHKO" or "Air Slash OHKO". However, I notice that while you have a Charizard's Air Slash go up against a defensive Blaziken, Blaziken is usually used as an offensive sweeper, having EVs in mostly Speed or Attack (for things such as HJK and Stone Edge). So, how would a Blaziken, offensively oriented, stand up to an offensively oriented Charizard's Air Slash, if the Blaziken (for some reason) doesn't use Protect?

Also, I vote Blazikens, because it was my first starter (Ruby was my first), and it doesn't afraid of anything (which might seem contradictory to my above statement but I mean this for the sake of a good challenge :D). Charizards are also cool, but they just can't compete.

EDIT: Didn't see that you already included the fact about no one using a defensive Blaziken, so I was more specific and just added the Air Slash after Charizard.
 
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Charizard is objectively better.

Do you even know what objectively means?

Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices
Based on observable phenomena; presented factually

Charizard is not better that Blaziken from an objective point of view. It is far inferior. Go check out the last half a dozen pages to see why.
 
Envoy, in every single one of your scenarios you assume the Blaziken player knows exactly what the Charizard player is going to use, so you're not really proving any point.

Thats because Charizard, like Blaziken now, is way too easy to predict.

In Blaziken's case however, you need to have a counter or all that prediction does't count for anything.

Did some Damage Calcs.

Lets assume that both players know what they are facing and have specially prepared their Pokemon for the battle.

If we go with physical Charizard:

EVs:
Attack-252
Speed-252

Using Fly on:

Defensive Blaziken HP-252
Defense-252
(Since I know I'm up against a Physical Charizard

Damage taken: 77.5-91.2% Fails to OHKO. The same Blaziken does 196.6-231.6% damage. OHKO.

Keep in mind thats Blaziken with 0 attack EVs.

Special Charizard
EVs:
Sp.Attack-252
Speed-252

Uses Air Slash on:

Special Defensive Blaziken
Sp.Defense-252
HP-252

Damage taken: 74.6-90.7% Fails to OHKO. Blaziken OHKOs again with Stone Edge(196.6-231.6% damage).

So an Offensive Charizard will always lose to a Defensive Blaziken.

Lets reverse the situation and have Blaziken be Offensive and Charizard be Defensive.

Once Blaziken inevitably outspeeds Charizard, it OHKOs with 151.1% - 178.9% damage.



So yeah, Charizard's never gonna beat Blaziken if both players know what their up against.

Since no self respcting Blaziken is gonna be Defensive and no Charizard worth its skin is gonna have Fly, the battle pretty much boils down to this:

Blaziken used Protect!
Charizard used Air Slash!
Blaziken protected itself!
Blaziken used Stone Edge!
Its Super Effective!
Charizard fainted!

U mad bro?

Now, I was surfing this thread out of boredom when I come along this. It is very respectable that you used calculations to convey your point instead of just babbling "Stone Edge OHKO" or "Air Slash OHKO". However, I notice that while you have a Charizard's Air Slash go up against a defensive Blaziken, Blaziken is usually used as an offensive sweeper, having EVs in mostly Speed or Attack (for things such as HJK and Stone Edge). So, how would a Blaziken, offensively oriented, stand up to an offensively oriented Charizard's Air Slash, if the Blaziken (for some reason) doesn't use Protect?

Also, I vote Blazikens, because it was my first starter (Ruby was my first), and it doesn't afraid of anything (which might seem contradictory to my above statement but I mean this for the sake of a good challenge :D). Charizards are also cool, but they just can't compete.

EDIT: Didn't see that you already included the fact about no one using a defensive Blaziken, so I was more specific and just added the Air Slash after Charizard.

Firstly why wouldn't blaziken use protect? He has speed boost and that free boost is gonna make him outspeed zard. When blaziken was not banned, all of them run sd/protect/flare blitz/hjk.

Secondly, RJW is clearly pointing out that in a 1 vs 1 scenario, blaziken always wins. If i was supposed to battle 1 vs 1 and i knew that my opponent is gonna use charizard, i would simply use a defensive blaziken. No matter what the scenario, ken defeats zard.

Finally, as far as a general scenario is concerned like 6 vs 6, ken is Ubers and charizard is NU. That pretty much sums it up.
 
Please note: The thread is from 2 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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