Chikorita Needs More Love

[Envoy]

With the release of Gold and Silver on the Virtual Console, I think it's time to talk about an elephant in the room: Chikorita. Now, it's no secret that Chikorita is the weakest Johto Starter. In fact, it goes beyond that. Chikorita is definitively the weakest Starter in Pokemon history. My question is threefold:

1. Why? Why is it that Game Freak has neglected this Pokemon so hard? Meganium has literally nothing that makes it stand out as a Starter or even as a Grass Type. Competitively, it's seen as weaker than even some unevolved Pokemon. Why is it that Game Freak seems to have it out for the Chikorita line? And as a follow-up, what can be done about it?

2. How come the Pokemon fandom as a whole has completely disparaged this Pokemon? Sure, there are pockets of fans here and there, but they're few, far between, and quite small in comparison to other Pokemon. I'm not interested in knowing why you, personally, don't like it. I guarantee that I've heard it all before. I want to know why, as a community, we've turned our backs on Chikorita. Other weak Starters with controversial designs (Emboar, Samurott, Delphox, Primarina)* still have droves of passionate fans defending and supporting them, but nobody ever really stands up for Chikorita. Why is that? Why is it that we can see hundreds of people clamoring for Farfetch'd or Delibird or Dunsparce or Luvdisc to get a bone thrown their way, but we completely ignore Chikorita? Sure, she's technically already got more going for her than the aforementioned, but she's definitely comparable to them where Starters are concerned. How come the Pokemon fanbase as a whole has rejected (even outright mocked) this Pokemon instead of rallying behind it like they do so many others?

3. What moves or abilities would you give to the Chikorita family in order to improve it? Stats and typing are not likely to change (bar a Mega or Alola form) but moveset and, to a lesser degree, Hidden Abilities have proven more malleable. How would you fix this Pokemon?

This is not a 'bash Chikorita' thread. This is a 'let's show this underappreciated Pokemon some love' thread.

*No disrespect intended to any of these Pokemon. I actually quite like all of them, but they are among the least popular Starters overall.

 

[GhostLucario]

1. IDK if they "have it out" specifically for this pokemon. There are a LOT of other pokemon they simply seem to hate for whatever reason even starters... Serperior *cough* Samurott* cough Delphox *cough* *cough*
I've wondered many times before why does GF play favorites with some while outright neglecting or even actively making others terrible. It's anyone guess really.

2. I don't hate Meganium, in fact I like it and I have no clue why it seems to be universally hated. For years I thought it was because it is a very femenine-looking pokemon and pokemon's fanbase (At least for the games) tend to be more male and straight, the kind of fan that would dislike a pokemon for its femenine design. But then Primarina came along and it just threw my whole theory away. I really don't know. My second-best guess is that it IS a very bad pokemon, with a design that's not liked by many.

3. I have been thinking about ways to improve it but all I can think of is of making it a Venusaur 2.0 and giving it Chlorophyll (sp?) as a Hidden Ability.

It already has Swords Dance and some good physical moves like Body Slam, Earthquake and Outrage so maybe a physical set would be nice with some new moves something like Power Whip, Leaf Blade (which should get as a Chikorita and Bayleef), Superpower, Play Rough, Aqua Tail (It gets Iron Tail so why not?) and Heavy Slam

As for a special side it should get Earth Power (I've been saying for ages Earth Power should be as widespread amongst grass types as Ice beam is with Water types), Dazzling Gleam, Dragon Pulse.
I don't know about support moves I think it's ok-aish in that regard.

 

[Gengarzilla]

I gave it plenty of love and appreciation as my player choice in several emulated Explorers of Sky files and most recently for Super Mystery Dungeon, where its Ancient Power egg move in the latter alongside access to both Reflect and Light Screen by level-up (in a game where TMs are generally rarities until after the epilogue, this is a massive advantage) went a long way towards surviving some of the really tough boss fights.

I knew I'd discovered an uncut diamond in Chikorita when Reflect let me beat that optional early-game Salamence battle with only one Reviver Seed and no Sylveon, this view later reaffirmed when Light Screen greatly clipped the healing capabilities of Yveltal's Oblivion Wing. None of that could have been accomplished by Turtwig, my backup player choice and actual result from the quiz.

All that said though, when we leave this subseries I have to agree when people say that the line is a bit useless. I'm holding out on the Johto starters getting some sort of buff in the near future because Typhlosion and Feraligatr do have some problems of their own. I honestly feel like Gen II's starters in general have gotten the shaft in one way or another, not just Meganium.

 

[Envoy]

All that said though, when we leave this subseries I have to agree when people say that the line is a bit useless. I'm holding out on the Johto starters getting some sort of buff in the near future because Typhlosion and Feraligatr do have some problems of their own. I honestly feel like Gen II's starters in general have gotten the shaft in one way or another, not just Meganium.

Fair. Outside of the actual Johto journey, Typhlosion isn't really anything to write home about and arguably the weakest Fire Starter (if not the, then certainly one of.) And Feraligatr is still seen by many as an inferior Gyarados. But you have to agree that Meganium gets it the worst.

 

[Alola]

Disclaimer: Long Post.

I, for one, really like Chikorita! Its appearance is easy on the eyes, it has a neat design and I really like its name. I remember first seeing it in the dub, when Ash met Casey. Shortly after, he caught his and I become fond of the little green Leaf Pokemon. Surely enough, it was my first choice as starter when I received Silver version and Meganium had the honor of being my first fully evolved starter Pokemon (couldn't evolve Pikachu in Yellow). I actually was considering raising one to partner with my Torchic in my current ORAS play through (but Treecko won out in the end since its regional and I had never raised one before unlike Chikorita).

As in regards to your questions:
1) I wouldn't say that Game Freak "has it out" for the Chikorita line. Instead, I think it is more of indifference. The generation of Chikorita has passed and it is no longer in the starter limelight, or regional limelight, as the current starters (Rowlet, Litten and Popplio) are. Game Freak instead are focusing on other things and projects such as Ultra Sun & Moon, Pokken, the next generation of Pokemon games that will likely be on the Switch, promotional wifi/dlc materials and so on. As it goes with each new generation to the next. Rarely do they focus on promoting and investing in a Pokemon unless it naturally proves really popular with fans and customers (such as Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario & Greninja). As the Chikorita line, along with many other starters, have never reached those heights, Game Freak doesn't particularly care about how to improve such a Pokemon for in-game usage (let alone competitively!). It just doesn't make sense, especially since complaints and concerns about Chikorita stem from a vocal minority.

In terms of what can be done about it, I don't see much. Technically, Chikorita are native to the Johto region. And as a starter, it shouldn't even have relevance outside of its region to begin with (as can be applied for most starters). Yeah, you may get tid bits like the Island Scan from Sun & Moon, but aside from a rather bland egg-move, they didn't change Chikorita. And that should indicate to you how much Game Freak cares. Otherwise, you'd be able to easily catch starters everywhere and without online assistance. Unless we revisit Johto, I don't see Game Freak investing in ways to improve the Leaf Pokemon and its family.

2) Your argument can easily be made the other way. Just like "hundreds of people" clamor for Luvdisc or Farfetch'd, the same amount of people champion Chikorita. In fact, on other forums and websites that I've visited, I've seen numerous people come to the Leaf Pokemon's defense with comments along the lines of "I love Chikorita," "I always start with it," "Chikorita is my favorite Grass starter," and the like. While it may be one of the least popular starters, it does have its share of fans. But to answer your question, it is probably because of how the line is structured. The Chikorita family is one of few defensive oriented starters in the series-it doesn't have any attacking stats at or over 100 (or 90 for that matter), its Speed stats doesn't reach 90 or higher, its move pool isn't diverse in type or attacking options, its Hidden Ability is defensive in nature (and potentially a double edged sword, since its activation has a byproduct of one of Chikorita's weaknesses be powered up further), its type isn't very good offensively or defensively (especially in earlier generations), and it doesn't have a Mega Evolution (currently) that allows it to go from being defensive to offensive (like Blastoise). Every other final evolution starter you listed is, while less popular, able to be decently to exceptionally offensive. And that, generally, is the name of the game-when people play Pokemon (generally the demographic of children), they expect their Pokemon to be able to deal out decent damage without too much difficulty. Hyper offense is the most utilized style of play for in-game, across all players. Chikorita unfortunately was unable to do that in the region it was introduced in. Which leads to me to my next point.

The Johto region was horrible to Grass types. I firmly believe this was a large reason that led to Chikorita's reputation. Most starters do decently well as partner Pokemon to a player character. They're able to put up a good match against several of the important opponents such as Gym Leaders, the Elite Four, and the Champion, can do decently well against the Pokemon owned by the villainous team, and are great Pokemon for standard trainer battles. Chikorita unfortunately didn't match a lot of that criteria, even when it was given a second leash on life in HeartGold & SoulSilver. This is all best summed up with an excerpt from TV Tropes:

• Consider how often you, anyone you know, or anyone you've seen play these games have ever picked Chikorita. Many Pokémon in the games are weak to Typhlosion's Fire-type attacks (notably being the best counter to the new Steel type as their Special Defense is never as good as their Defense, which is generally high enough to tank their other two physical weaknesses to Fighting and Ground), while Feraligatr quickly gets a powerful STAB move in Surf right before the 4th badge. Meganium, sadly, struggles to damage most of the gyms, the Elite Four and the largely Poison-oriented Team Rocket, won't get any better STAB move than Razor Leaf (which has been nerfed from Gen I to stop constantly getting critical hits) for most of the game, has the most restricted movepool and worst offensive stats among the three starters, and its cutesy design is generally regarded as less cool-looking than the more ferocious designs of Typhlosion and Feraligatr.

Because of the way Johto was constructed, using Gym Leader types who were not featured in Kanto, the Chikorita line had many more obstacles to overcome than its fellow starters. And this is what the line is remembered for today. It also doesn't help that future, sole Grass starter lines had niches that actually made them usable-both Sceptile and Serperior are the fastest of their trios with better attack options (Serperior can abuse Contrary boosted Leaf Storms while Sceptile has a diverse move pool with Mega Evolution to boot). As the Chikorita line had already been established with the damage done, and no significant revamping afterwards, they faded even further into obscurity. Its stigma became too great, in some cases exaggerated. And most of all, the expectations set for it were not met. Several of the initial Pokemon you listed for this point are joke Pokemon, not starters. With a starter, there are always expectations (some explicit, some implicit, good or bad) regarding design, utility, strength and such-that's why they tend to be most controversial and scrutinized Pokemon compared to others. That's also why they tend to be last Pokemon created by illustrators. Hence why the fanbase can be more explicit about them rather than other random Pokemon.

3) I've often wondered this myself. The best I've thematically been able to come up with is maybe making the line, or at least Bayleef and/or Meganium, part Rock type, to reflect their sauropod design. Include Ancient Power in their natural move sets while allowing them to learn Rock type moves-this would give them much needed coverage against Flying, Bug and Fire type opponents. They could also then become even bulkier with Sandstorm support. Also, maybe, since Meganium is associated with revitalizing plant life, throw in some water moves like Brine, Soak and Surf (Sauropods spent a lot of time in swamps and bodies of water!). I think it should also get Earth Power given the fact that it can learn Earthquake and is based on a dinosaur, as well as Play Rough (Ash's Bayleef memories anyone?). Ability wise, I would retool its Hidden Ability into something more defensive-namely Filter (or Solid Rock if it became a Rock type). That way, it would actually have a better chance at doing its job as a defensive mon (and it isn't so outlandish for it to have said ability, given the other Pokemon who get it). Or thematically, it could have Harvest to fit in with the lore of it being able to regrow plants with ease (this would also make it bulkier). That, or Friend Guard since it is known for soothing opponents and making them less likely to attack. I feel like either of these options are miles better over Leaf Guard.

Alas, I doubt Game Freak will give the Leaf Pokemon the love it truly deserves. Only time will tell at this point. I am hoping out though that its Hidden Ability can at least be revamped, given what's happened with other Pokemon in the past.

 

[Zeb]

I wanted a Mega Meganium with Flower Veil, but that looks unlikely to happen now. They could just replace Leaf Guard with Flower Veil instead, though. I don't think it would make it amazing, but a supporter that's immune to status and stat drops would be great. Might also make a Swords Dance set a little bit more appealing. (In case people don't know, Flower Veil also applies to the user if it's a Grass-type, but so far only two pure Fairy-type lines have it - Florges line and Comfey.)

I also think Meganium is underrated for in-game use. I haven't used it much in Gen 2, but in HGSS I've chose it almost every time I've replayed them, especially in Nuzlockes. Sure, it doesn't like Team Rocket and all its Poison-types, but early game Synthesis + Reflect (and later Light Screen) is amazing team support for a Nuzlocke.

 

[Envoy]

Terrain Abilities are, as of right now, exclusive to the Tapus, but if Drought and Drizzle have taught us anything, it's that they don't have to remain so for very long. I don't expect any other Pokemon to have a Terrain Ability for the remainder of Gen VII, but perhaps come Gen VIII, Meganium's Hidden Ability can change to Grassy Surge. Sure, it would still be an inferior Tapu Bulu, but with Grassy Surge, Meganium would finally have a niche of its very own in lower tiers. This would make her much more desirable.

I mean, just look at how Politoed and Ninetales skyrocketed in Gen V when they got the weather abilities. I imagine Meganium could make a lesser version oft that jump.

 

[Guzma]

Primarina)*No disrespect intended to any of these Pokemon. I actually quite like all of them, but they are among the least popular Starters overall.

Primarina is neither weak or unpopular. She's the only SuMo starter in a tier above RU due to her excellent Special Attack, solid offensive movepool and her Water/Fairy typing that's amazing both defensively and offensively, and she's rather popular for her elegant design. She may not be the breakout star of the SuMo trio (that would be Decidueye, which is most likely the reason he got into Pokken) but to say she's one of the "least popular" starters is kind of a falsehood. Incineroar's generally the least popular Gen VII starter, and is also the one that's the lowest in the tier charts/

 

[Envoy]

Primarina is neither weak or unpopular. She's the only SuMo starter in a tier above RU due to her excellent Special Attack, solid offensive movepool and her Water/Fairy typing that's amazing both defensively and offensively, and she's rather popular for her elegant design. She may not be the breakout star of the SuMo trio (that would be Decidueye, which is most likely the reason he got into Pokken) but to say she's one of the "least popular" starters is kind of a falsehood. Incineroar's generally the least popular Gen VII starter, and is also the one that's the lowest in the tier charts/

Good for you. Not the point of the thread.

 

[Guzma]

Okay, then. Anyway, my thoughts on Chikorita are that I used to be rather unfond of it, but I've warmed up to the Chikorita line. It is kinda screwed over by its stats, movepool, typing and ability, unfortunately.

Personally, if I had the chance to revamp Chikorita, I'd start with its HA. Filter could be good, honestly. Prankster, while not fitting its design or attitude, would help it out in its support role, giving it priority when it tries to set up dual screens.

 

[Nicolas721]

I'm a Chikorita fan, as I loved its role in the anime. However, I don't lose sleep because of its "lack" of popularity, first because: 1) It's a starter, so it was/is in A LOT of teams and will bring good memories to a ton of people, and 2) My selection of favorite Pokemon is quite unpopular, thus I'm used to understand that not every Pokemon can get love even if we'd like it. A lot of people say that Popplio, Dunsparce and Raichu are "underrated", while others like Eelectrik, Chingling and Spoink are in the real bottom of the deep. I try to spread my Marshtomp love as much as I can, but if Nintendo doesn't care enough for it to give it a new form or even a small role in the anime it's fine, you can't always get what you want.

Anyway, Chikorita is awesome and cute.

 

[lavandula]

Didn't know that Chikorita is unpopular in the West.
Chikorita is really popular among female fans in Asia.

 

[Guzma]

Didn't know that Chikorita is unpopular in the West.
Chikorita is really popular among female fans in Asia.

Generally people in Western fandoms expect starters to be "cool" or "badass" in their final forms; aside from Meganium, Delphox and Primarina, all the other starter final forms tend to lean that way (their successfulness at actually looking cool may vary, but they try). There's also a tendency for Grass to be considered the most "boring" choice out of the three and Fire to be the "coolest" choice, like with Charizard, Typhlosion, Blaziken and Infernape.

The last three Gens were weird since the Gen V starters are widely considered underwhelming (although Contrary made Serperior the best non-Mega evolved Grass starter competitively), Gen VI's breakout star was Greninja, and Gen VII did the seemingly impossible and had a super-popular Grass starter (Decidueye) and a highly divisive Fire starter (Incineroar).

 

[Almonds]

2. How come the Pokemon fandom as a whole has completely disparaged this Pokemon? Sure, there are pockets of fans here and there, but they're few, far between, and quite small in comparison to other Pokemon. I'm not interested in knowing why you, personally, don't like it. I guarantee that I've heard it all before. I want to know why, as a community, we've turned our backs on Chikorita. Other weak Starters with controversial designs (Emboar, Samurott, Delphox, Primarina)* still have droves of passionate fans defending and supporting them, but nobody ever really stands up for Chikorita. Why is that? Why is it that we can see hundreds of people clamoring for Farfetch'd or Delibird or Dunsparce or Luvdisc to get a bone thrown their way, but we completely ignore Chikorita? Sure, she's technically already got more going for her than the aforementioned, but she's definitely comparable to them where Starters are concerned. How come the Pokemon fanbase as a whole has rejected (even outright mocked) this Pokemon instead of rallying behind it like they do so many others?

It's because Chikorita is a starter pokemon that the "hate" is especially strong. The Starter Pokemon: the oldest teammate and the strongest backup, the leader, the one to help catch and raise other future team members, the player character's "first-born"... and yet Chikorita turns out to be unreliable as a starter pokemon.

Like @Alola mentioned, the Johto region was just horrible to Chikorita, especially regarding the Gym battles, Team Rocket, and League. Chikorita has no type advantage over any of the gyms and the E4/champion. Team Rocket pack in mostly Poison-types. Upon that, your rival is always going to pick Cyndaquil against your Chikorita, and last I checked he also uses the Zubat line, the Gastly line, and a Sneasel. And it wasn't just the region that was unhelpful - Chikorita's stats and moveset was limiting as well. Chikorita was built to be defensive, but Grass is horrible defense-wise (as a mono-type), and its attack/special attack isn't strong enough.

It didn't help that Cyndaquil and Totodile were amazing in comparison, and did their jobs brilliantly as starters. Chikorita wasn't able to do so. Plus, design-wise, Chikorita is so adorable that there would have been players who picked Chikorita for its cuteness... only to enter the route of hell. One can only imagine the feeling of players who realized they had been "deceived".

3. What moves or abilities would you give to the Chikorita family in order to improve it? Stats and typing are not likely to change (bar a Mega or Alola form) but moveset and, to a lesser degree, Hidden Abilities have proven more malleable. How would you fix this Pokemon?

If Chikorita were to stay defensive, perhaps getting a different HA would be better. Thick Fat would be great since it reduces Fire and Ice damages, both which are super effective against Chikorita, and since Meganium looks pretty bulky in size I'd say it would fit design-wise as well. Filter is another good choice since there aren't a lot of pokemon who have Filter as their ability, yet.

 

[Envoy]

If Chikorita were to stay defensive, perhaps getting a different HA would be better. Thick Fat would be great since it reduces Fire and Ice damages, both which are super effective against Chikorita, and since Meganium looks pretty bulky in size I'd say it would fit design-wise as well. Filter is another good choice since there aren't a lot of pokemon who have Filter as their ability, yet.

I'd personally steer clear of Thick Fat since that's already Mega Venusaur's ability and the last thing Meganium needs is to draw more comparisons to one of the best Grass Starters around. Besides, the truth is that Mega Venusaur just uses Thick Fat better. Filter is a good option tho.

 

[Juliko]

Yay! A Chikorita appreciation thread! I know Chikorita isn't the most popular starter, but I loved it as a kid and I still love it now! Nothing can stop my love for Chikorita!

 

[Envoy]

While it is clear that Chikorita is easily the weakest Starter in Johto, as someone who constantly chooses her, I do find some of the criticism to be a bit superficial.

For starters, some matchups aren't nearly as bad as they might appear. Pryce may be affiliated with the Ice Type, but literally his entire team is weak to Grass. Chuck's ace is also weak to Grass, while Jasmine and Clair's take neutral damage from Grass. Steelix in particular is noteworthy for its low Sp. Def, which Meganium can exploit with Special STAB attacks. Falkner may have a Type advantage against Chikorita but his status as the first Gym Leader, levels lower than the average for a first Gym Leader, and his Flying Types' generally low defensive stats usually mean that Chikorita can hold her own, even despite the Type disadvantage. At least in my (admittedly extensive) experience.

Yes, it's true that Team Rocket likes to use Poison Types, which Meganium doesn't like. But that's really only half the story. The Johto games are infamous for having a really bad level curve, to the point where it's not uncommon for you to be facing enemies in their teens while your own party is in its 30's. I've found that the level discrepancy, combined with Meganium's Normal Type coverage and natural bulk, is usually enough to muscle through the vast majority of Team Rocket.

She's also useful against individual members of the Elite Four's rosters and works as a decent support Pokémon against the rest. By the time you've reached Kanto, you'll obviously have a strong enough party that you won't be relying on any one Pokémon (Starter or otherwise,) but it should still be pointed out that Meganium does well against Brock, Misty, and Surge --and that she can tank Erika.

Once again for those in the back, no I'm not saying she's the best. No, I'm not saying that criticisms leveled against her are inaccurate. All I'm saying is that they don't tell the whole story and that even with so many disadvantages, she can make herself useful to a team going through the Johto games. Sometimes I feel the negatives get all the attention, but nobody really talks about what she is capable of doing. Thus creating a false narrative that she's not capable of doing anything at all.

 

[noworry]

The Chikorita-line doesn't have any outstanding stats, and they dont get any particularly useful moves/abilites. That being said, I still love the design of all three of them. Chikorita is rather useless at the start, when both Flying and Bug gets thrown at you, and later in the game people will have access to other pokémon that does Meganiums job anyway. I know it's the same situation Charmander was in, but Charizard itself is a fan-favourite. It gets the Flying type, a wider movepool, and I mean, it is a dragon.

I still really like Chikorita. It's cute, and I really love dinosaurs. It's honestly one of my favourite Grass-starters, and I really wish it got some more love, from both Game Freak and fans.

 

[Sana]

I love Chikorita, but I agree that Game Freak really didn't care much for it. I wish it did.
Chikorita's design is fantastic and I like everything about it.

Pokémon, in general, is not balanced in favor of defense.
Unless we're talking about all those hardcore superwalls or can effectively do everything, a defense-leaning pokémon will need to have a lot more going on for it than any offense-leaning one that can just go "use move do damage".
Heck, just compare healing moves with that of other series.

Meganium feels like it's floating in this space between utility-support and not-quite-tank... When for a starter, support is a very tricky concept to pull off.
Some of my thoughts are that what Chikorita needed was more powerful utility moves. Maybe a Wish equivalent, maybe something that restores HP over your side of the field.
Ways to reliably support virtually any team.

However... that still would fall short, since it needs a means to "just attack" after all. Better STAB, better coverage (Earth Power, Fairy-type etc)... I think it'd be better if it didn't try to have both attacking stats similar and commited to only one, maybe? (Its abilities are also basically worthless. Maybe Harvest or Natural Cure?)
Although that's also kind of in part with Grass types' problems...


But essentially what I'd think would be best is for Chikorita to fall more into a cleric archetype... the problem is that such an archetype is not easily favored by the game as it is.
So in absence of that give me a Grass/Dragon or Grass/Fairy Mega Meganium, I guess?


On the other hand, in Mystery Dungeon at least, it's really good as a player where you can reliably heal and put screens up. You even get a distance attack early on, which is very convenient, and resisting random bubbles from something swimming offscreen is always good.

 

[zvinko]

Chikorita was always my favourite Johto starter because of its adorable design, and I love the name, it has a nice ring to it. Also, Meganium was great in my HG run.