Citations, Bulbapedia Policy, and our position in the fan community

[Archaic]

Continuing from my Blog yesterday, quoted here for your convenience.

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/blog.php?b=8771#comments

I'll post the AIM log that this comment made on IRC is related to later, but I just want to hear peoples opinions of this, because I've honestly not heard a single complaint here in a long time, and the last one I did get was so invalid it was hilarious (complaining about a similar translation being posted, as if any good translation to something wouldn't be similar).

<+Serebii> no wonder Bulbapedia has lost the respect of webmasters in the community

So, is this a legitimate statement, or just someone with hurt feelings over losing in Alexa rankings?

Had a few good comments in that blog, which I would strongly encourage everyone read. I'll probably quote and post a few of them later in the thread. First though, here's the AIM conversation between myself and Joe "Serebii" Merrick that I mentioned in there. This chat happened yesterday, timestamps are US Central time.

(12:51:48 PM) Serebii Joe: hey Liam, are you around?
(12:54:05 PM) ArchaicEternal: I am, though I'm a little busy. What do you need?
(12:54:14 PM) Serebii Joe: It can wait if you're busy
(12:55:00 PM) ArchaicEternal: I'm constantly busy, may as well tell me now.
(12:56:01 PM) Serebii Joe: Well, I was going to inquire about the external links on the Pokemon pages on Bulbapedia. My site was originally in there but got removed. I was told it is because I "don't contribute" which is bull. I have tried talking to many including TTE about this but they suggested I talk to you
(12:59:31 PM) ArchaicEternal: I generally stay out of the day to day decision making with regards to the Bulbapedia. I leave that to the staff who are on the ground and in the best position to make decisions.

I would assume what they meant there is simply that there's no real reason for that link to be present, since it doesn't give any additional information. We're in a continuous process of reviewing the links in our templates, with more than a few sites having added their links or pages about themselves as self-advertising. We're looking to restrict this in future to sites we have positive relations with, whose content adds something that wouldn't be suitable for the Bulbapedia format, such as with Smogon's tier information.
(1:02:31 PM) Serebii Joe: Well TTE told me to bring this to you and my site is as relevant as any other site in these links. To me, it seems more likely someone such as yourself vetoed it due to past bias. I was told that the only sites included are ones that have contributed

Plus, as you mentioned linking, I have documented over 2 dozen cases in the past 4 months of myself making an update on my site and then it appearing on Bulbapedia without any reference whatsoever. You yourself have gone on at me in the past about "stealing" and yet you allow this to go on. I would like an explanation as to why you allow this.
(1:07:26 PM) ArchaicEternal: I don't see how "sites that have contributed" contradicts what I've just said regarding "sites we have a positive connection with". Of course we'd show favouritism to a site that was willing to co-operate with us on issues over a site that has been continuously negative and obstructionist regarding the Bulbapedia project.

I've certainly not seen any such documentation regarding our news articles, however I must point out that you are not the font of knowledge. We have people living in Japan ourselves, and we are more than capable of doing our own news research. Even if you publish an article on some piece of news first, that does not mean that every other site in the fandom used you as a source, or that it needs to link to and quote you.
(1:08:31 PM) Serebii Joe: I'm not just talking news articles, I'm talking content pages I have written on my site which then get slightly edited and posted on Bulbapedia
(1:09:41 PM) Serebii Joe: I am not the only website owner that has been the victim of this and it is destroying Bulbapedia's credibility in the community.
(1:09:54 PM) Serebii Joe: I do not attempt to claim ownership on news articles
(1:10:05 PM) Serebii Joe: It's the actual stuff I do that gets stolen
(1:10:36 PM) Serebii Joe: So, since you whined when I used a screenshot from a capture of a preview you apparently made, you should be able to empaphise
(1:12:58 PM) Serebii Joe: There's also the fact that if it was any other major site doing it, say from Bulbapedia, you would jump down their throats so I would like an explanation on this double-standard.
(1:13:22 PM) ArchaicEternal: I've not seen any such documentation of this by yourself, nor have any such complaints been brought to my attention by members of the fandom prior to this.
(1:13:39 PM) Serebii Joe: Well I have complained to bulbagarden staff about it
(1:13:48 PM) Serebii Joe: I will gladly compile the list of instances and e-mail them to you
(1:13:52 PM) ArchaicEternal: Go ahead.
(1:14:13 PM) ArchaicEternal: But don't expect me to necessarily do anything about it, if I feel your accusations are unjustified.
(1:14:21 PM) ArchaicEternal: You have to remember, Bulbapedia is a wiki.
(1:14:27 PM) Serebii Joe: EXACTLY
(1:14:28 PM) ArchaicEternal: That means anyone can edit, not just staff members.
(1:14:33 PM) Serebii Joe: Wikis are meant to source
(1:14:35 PM) Serebii Joe: and reference
(1:14:37 PM) ArchaicEternal: We have 16,000k articles or so.
(1:14:38 PM) Serebii Joe: but you guys don't
(1:14:39 PM) Serebii Joe: you take
(1:14:48 PM) Serebii Joe: you take and take and take
(1:15:01 PM) ArchaicEternal: We don't have the time to check every single edit against every single update every single site in the fandom makes, nor should we.
(1:15:24 PM) ArchaicEternal: If you ever have an issue with an update, you always have the option of using your own account on there to fix things.
(1:15:54 PM) ArchaicEternal: And again, I repeat, you are not the font of knowledge. Bulbapedia is not Wikipedia. We do original research, we don't just source other sites.
(1:16:32 PM) Serebii Joe: Stop trying to incinuate that I am claiming I own all knowledge
(1:16:53 PM) Serebii Joe: Your attempts to try and take the moral high ground by deriving false meanings from what I say will not work anymore
(1:16:56 PM) ArchaicEternal: You seem to be making the suggestion that everything on Bulbapedia that could be in any way related to an update you've made on your page needs to be referenced to you.
(1:17:06 PM) Serebii Joe: No
(1:17:08 PM) Serebii Joe: I'm not
(1:17:15 PM) Serebii Joe: I'm saying when stuff is taken from other sources
(1:17:18 PM) Serebii Joe: it should be source
(1:17:25 PM) ArchaicEternal: When stuff is taken.
(1:17:28 PM) Serebii Joe: I know for a fact that this is how you think
(1:17:37 PM) Serebii Joe: and yet you allow it to happen
(1:18:30 PM) ArchaicEternal: Well, when no one's even said anything about this to me at all, you can hardly blame me for letting something happen, can you?
(1:18:46 PM) ArchaicEternal: I've seen no evidence for what you're alleging whatsoever.
(1:19:12 PM) Serebii Joe: Well I will compile the list in my spare-time and you should receive it within the next week.
(1:20:17 PM) ArchaicEternal: And I'll look at it, and discuss it with my staff, and see what needs to be done, if anything does actually need to be done.
(1:21:43 PM) Serebii Joe: Well I hope it works out, but I still feel you should sort your moderation staff out as, considering I have spoken to several about this and nothing has happened, they condone these actions.
(1:22:04 PM) ArchaicEternal: Or, more likely, they found your complaints to be without merit.
(1:22:23 PM) Serebii Joe: I very much doubt that
(1:23:02 PM) ArchaicEternal: I'm not necessarily saying their judgement was correct there, but I hired my staff because they're good at what they do, and I would always trust and stand behind them.
(1:25:01 PM) ArchaicEternal: To be honest Joe, that I'm only hearing this from you now, when Bulbagarden.net achieved clear superiority over Serebii.net in Alexa rankings for the months of December and January, makes me wonder if you're just a bit sore over that and are trying to get more inbound links to boost your search ranking.
(1:25:18 PM) Serebii Joe: the alexa rankings are bullshit and you know it
(1:26:07 PM) ArchaicEternal: Yes, but we both also know that with the demographics our sites attract, Serebii should have the advantage in terms of percentage of users who would employ the Alexa toolbar and contribute to the rankings.
(1:26:40 PM) Serebii Joe: I disagree how thats a valid assessment
(1:27:24 PM) ArchaicEternal: You're free to disagree, but you may care to remember that I'm the one writing a post-graduate thesis on online communities and social networks. I have a bit more grounding in this stuff than you do.
(1:27:44 PM) Serebii Joe: Yeah that must be it
(1:30:27 PM) Serebii Joe: If you ask your staff in the chat, you'd see this has been a long time coming and has no relevance to the alexa rankings. I've been trying to talk to your underlings to sort this, but they then decided to refer me to you
(1:31:01 PM) Serebii Joe: Then, when I do, and you know I'm right, you go for a well known invalid ranking system to try and insult me
(1:31:12 PM) ArchaicEternal: You've been talking to staff in #bulbagarden? No wonder you're getting nowhere then.
(1:31:20 PM) Serebii Joe: Not just to them
(1:31:21 PM) ArchaicEternal: They're a completely separate division from Bulbapedia.
(1:31:46 PM) Serebii Joe: the bulbagarden chat is where I vented most
(1:31:50 PM) Serebii Joe: but I discussed with Bulbapedia staff
(1:31:59 PM) ArchaicEternal: Know you're right? How could I "know you're right" when I haven't seen a spec of evidence from you whatsoever?
(1:32:10 PM) ArchaicEternal: I trust my staff.
(1:32:36 PM) Serebii Joe: You'll get the evidence, it requires a lot of compiling due to the amount there is
(1:32:43 PM) Serebii Joe: I also trust the fact that I know my stuff when I see it
(1:33:19 PM) ArchaicEternal: We'll see.
(1:33:49 PM) ArchaicEternal: I think it's fairly well known what I've thought of your judgement for many years now, so I'm certainly not going to come to any premature conclusions.
(1:35:13 PM) Serebii Joe: Yeah, I know you have though and I know that even with the evidence I'll present you'll just dismiss it since you still have a bias against me. I was thinking we could have a civilised discussion and you acutally weigh things properly since we're both older and wiser, but based on what you've said here, I know how things will go.
(1:37:10 PM) ArchaicEternal: *shrugs*
Make whatever assumptions you will. The fandom community will judge me, not you.
Speaking of which, I probably don't have to remind you that whatever you send me as evidence will be posted up publicly. As will this AIM chat with it. If there's one lesson dealing with you over the years ever taught me, it's to save and document everything.
(1:37:28 PM) Serebii Joe: I was going to do the very same thing
(1:37:47 PM) Serebii Joe: As I've learned to do that dealing with a certain other person
(1:38:08 PM) ArchaicEternal: As for expecting to have a civilised discussion....you come in, launching accusations at me and my staff without showing me a shred of evidence, and you expect me to remain civil? You've a lot to learn.
(1:38:46 PM) Serebii Joe: As do you
(1:39:57 PM) ArchaicEternal: Perhaps. But when you're not the one educating undergraduate students about these kind of things, you're not exactly the one to be saying that.
(1:41:50 PM) Serebii Joe: Right, so when I'm on my postgraduate course, I can be a falsely condescending ass then? Sweet, can't wait.
(1:44:27 PM) ArchaicEternal: I'd say you're already doing a good enough job at being a falsely condescending ass with your accusations and insinuations regarding me and my staff, so you needn't bother.
(1:46:01 PM) Serebii Joe: I fail to see how I have been condescending at all
(1:46:07 PM) ArchaicEternal: Also, you'll have to wait until you're teaching, not just when you're doing postgrad.
(1:48:09 PM) Serebii Joe: Look Liam, I didn't want this to turn into a fight
(1:48:32 PM) Serebii Joe: I am trying to distance myself from that crap after some of the stuff with WPM the last two years
(1:50:44 PM) ArchaicEternal: I'm repeating myself here, but how could this not turn into a fight, when you've come flinging accusations against my staff without showing me a shread of evidence beforehand. You say you've been talking to my staff for a while on this, so one would've expected you to already long since have any and all evidence you had collated. Of course I'm going to take offence.
(1:52:09 PM) Serebii Joe: Yes, I probably should have had the list ready
(1:52:19 PM) Serebii Joe: I shall compile it shortly and you should receive it in a week
(1:53:45 PM) Serebii Joe: With the other staff, I went to them shortly after it happened

I'm still waiting on Joe's evidence.

I'd be interested in the feelings of everyone here on this, but before you reply, I just want to make one thing about Bulba's position quite clear.

Bulbapedia is not Wikipedia.
Wikipedia's requirement for inclusion is citing something from somewhere else. They specifically disallow original reporting and original research.
Bulbapedia's attitude towards that idea is that it's idiotic.
Bulbapedia does publish original reporting and original research, and will continue to do so.

So, in the context of the above...your thoughts please everyone.

 

[DCM]

fun read, i'll say that.
i want to see this evidence also.

 

[Virtual-Z]

COUGH!

Not that I totally agree with him. I think he's being a tool.

We do have our own people who can discover information for us. Things that are taken from other websites should be cited.

 

[Our Wasted Years]

I concur with DCM. This "evidence" must be a pile of fun stuff if it's taking him so long to write up and/or photoshop collect.

Also on a irrelevant note, I think it'd be fun to have Liam and Joe together in one room, since they get along so well.

 

[Takoto]

Just a little note, but when I was editing on Bulbapedia, some of the users that became admins in the time I was there, and after, just really weren't admin material/didn't seem like it.
Perhaps it's just my opinion, and I'm not saying all are, the majority of Bulbapedia admins are brilliant and do it well! But, two or three... Just don't make good admins.

And no, I'm not naming names, mostly because I can't remember as I haven't actively edited or been a part of Bulbapedia in many months.

I want to see this "evidence", however I can understand how Serebii may think Bulbapedia is "stealing" information. Pokémon is a game, so all the information will always be the same, it's not like the real world where you get anomalous results if you do a study. Everything is the same, so the information on every Pokémon based website will be the same.
You following me? xD

And, I've found every main Pokémon-Site gets news at around the same time, on the same day, so it may very well seem like Bulbapedia is "stealing news" or something of Serebii.net, because usually when one site gets hold of it, another one sees it and adds it to their news.



+ Never knew there were so much drama between the PokéSites.

 

[Archaic]

Also on a irrelevant note, I think it'd be fun to have Liam and Joe together in one room, since they get along so well.

You have read the Green Files, right?

 

[RexRacer]

Are those public now?

 

[DCM]

You have read the Green Files, right?

i have to see these Green Files.

 

[Falconwing]

This is the internet. Nothing is sacred, especially information. He's trying to gather information for the good of the fandom. Of course it's going to be spread out and around for everyone to read. And then of course it will be on the wiki because of its relevance. That's the point of the wiki. So to get all pouty about how he's not being sited and whatnot, and about whatever else he was complaining about (seriously, I was starting to get lost there), is rather immature and pointless. Welcome to the Internet Serebii. I love your site. Which is why during the HGSS month I constantly copied text of your home page and threw it up here in discussion so others could see it. Did I site? Every now and then when I felt like it. Deal with it, Joe. Sooner or later, everything on your site is going to be copied, edited, translated a million times over, and only a handful will bother siting.

On another note, I will say I am not a fan of some of the staff members, but that's for the personalities. They do their job and I stay out of their way.

...

Reader's Digest Version: Pokemon Fandom is serious business. Deal with it.

 

[Our Wasted Years]

You have read the Green Files, right?

Sorry I don't know what you're talking about at all

 

[Solaris]

(1:08:31 PM) Serebii Joe: I'm not just talking news articles, I'm talking content pages I have written on my site which then get slightly edited and posted on Bulbapedia

I was under the impression that the same person who helped Serebii with some of the HGSS information (read: PokéWalker information, item lists) also contributed to Bulbapedia with that information.

 

[Transfinite]

(1:08:31 PM) Serebii Joe: I'm not just talking news articles, I'm talking content pages I have written on my site which then get slightly edited and posted on Bulbapedia

Considering I was accused of "stealing" Serebii's Pokespecial chapter summaries when I wrote them up myself, way back when PokespecialTK was around... I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

 

[Nando]

I wonder if what I think will be on that list actually is.

 

[evkl]

Facts can't be stolen. We've been over this before. And around and around we go--right back to 2004!

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

However, wording can be. I took a book of facts back when I realized almost everything had been lifted out of a previous book of facts, down to the wording of them, without credit.

The facts themselves, not so much. If they'd just covered the same topics it wouldn't have been an issue at all.

It's a rather sticky issue, really.

 

[Archaic]

Of course, who owns the wording? It's not who first publishes it, it's who first writes it. As has been pointed out, there have been cases where the same person contributed the same information to multiple sites before, and one site has levelled accusations of copying and stealing against the other without knowing they had the same source.

 

[Zesty Cactus]

Facts can't be stolen. We've been over this before. And around and around we go--right back to 2004!

Agree w/this. Yes, if somebody copy-pastes from another site without even bothering to change it, then that's definitely wrong, but I don't think you can "own" information on the internet. If something is true, like, it's directly in the game/anime/manga/etc, does it matter where you learned it from? (as long as it's in your own words)

 

[Archaic]

Just got this in my inbox from Serebii. Certainly a lot quicker than expected, which I think we can probably attribute to him seeing this thread. Please note, I haven't yet read this. Rather busy with other things IRL right now, so it'll be a while before I respond to it. Just figured that I should be putting it up as soon as possible for you all.

This is the proof I've compiled so far. Looking at it, you cannot deny that people don't use my site as a base for editing. There's much more to come but shockingly, this isn't my life so it's not all here yet. If you want more, I'll gladly get it for you

It's also kind of disconcerting that you posted the stuff before even getting the proof and considering it. It shows you're trying to get people to make their minds up beforehand. But here you go

Handful of Evidence from HGSS;

http://www.serebii.net/archive/January-2010.shtml
Then the next day
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Slot_machine&diff=974950&oldid=911099

Update of 03/11/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/November-2009.shtml
Then 6 hours later -
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Shard&diff=918804&oldid=838819


Update of 25/10/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/October-2009.shtml
Then 10 hours later -
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Trainer_House&diff=prev&oldid=910486

Update of 20/10/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/October-2009.shtml
Then 4 hours later -
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Daisy_Oak&diff=905747&oldid=884982

Update of 11/10/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/October-2009.shtml
With Coronis discovery of Seviper, then my personal discoveries of Cacnea & Vibrava and then much more...got yoinked and placed here;
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Johto_Safari_Zone&diff=next&oldid=896357 http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?

title=Johto_Safari_Zone&diff=next&oldid=896677
http://www.serebii.net/archive/September-2009.shtml Safari Zone Updates here all end up corrolating to there until Yaminokame came and provided the complete details for both of

us
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Johto_Safari_Zone&diff=875042&oldid=871030

Update of 27/09/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/September-2009.shtml
Then 6 days later
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Pokémon_Music_Channel&diff=887322&oldid=855512

Update of 29/09/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/September-2009.shtml
Then, the next day (This one did credit in their edit summary so good for them) -
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Pickup_(ability)&diff=884796&oldid=884157

Update of 26/09/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/September-2009.shtml
Then within the next day
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Sunkern_(Pokémon)&diff=880347&oldid=878129 (AMONG MANY)

Updae of 24/09/09 - http://www.serebii.net/archive/September-2009.shtml
Then 5 hours later
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Bug-Catching_Contest&diff=877755&oldid=874843

Some Animé Pictures. There used to be many more, but it seems they've since been replaced, but there's still these:

http://www.serebii.net/410.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG133.png

http://www.serebii.net/410.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG133.png

http://www.serebii.net/413.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG136.png

http://www.serebii.net/414.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG137.png

http://www.serebii.net/416.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG139.png

http://www.serebii.net/417.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG140.png

http://www.serebii.net/423.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG146.png

http://www.serebii.net/432.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG155.png

http://www.serebii.net/439.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG162.png

http://www.serebii.net/441.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG164.png

http://www.serebii.net/455.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG179.png

http://www.serebii.net/456.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG180.png

http://www.serebii.net/462.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG186.png

http://www.serebii.net/464.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG188.png

http://www.serebii.net/465.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG189.png

http://www.serebii.net/466.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG190.png

http://www.serebii.net/468.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:AG192.png

http://www.serebii.net/483.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:DP015.png

http://www.serebii.net/484.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:DP016.png

http://www.serebii.net/485.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:DP017.png

http://www.serebii.net/518.jpg
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:DP050.png

 

[Takoto]

Well, he has a point at the timing... However, no offence, what does he expect? After every sentence on the Wiki to have in brackets "(this information was taken from Serebii.net)"?

This kind-a thing isn't uncommon, someone sees a bit of information, and they repost it. It's common, and "normal", and saves people the trouble of having to look into things themselves.

 

[Falconwing]

Well, where else were we going to get the images from the anime? If they were handy and easily acceptable... then duh, of course we used them.

As for information... well, again, it's not like information is sacred on the internet. Serebii is just getting worked up for some weird reason that makes sense only to him.