Controversial Opinion: Chikorita is the best starter in HeartGold / SoulSilver?

[electrictype master]

It's the most under-rated one and it doesn't deserve the hate. I used Meganium when I played Gold on the Virtual Console and it was decent enough.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Morty just bit the dust.

Level 35
No Item
Return, Sand-Attack, Wing Attack, Quick Attack
HP 96/Atk 62/Def 58/Sp. Atk 55/Sp. Def 55/Spd 70

How is it going, any progress?

 

[prog rocker]

How is it going, any progress?

Got distracted with Ultra Street Fighter IV and Naruto Shippuden: Clash of Ninja Revolution 3. Will continue soon, although I feel I might need to move it to a blog or something, since doing this by request instead in order might keep my interest in keeping this extra long challenge more interesting for me.

 

[Silktree]

You can get the Leaf Stone in HGSS before you unlock the National Pokedex; you just have to come to the dome on certain days.

Meganium is among my favorites, but I think that Vileplume, Tangrowth and maybe Exeggutor are better options despite being slower. I don't see the big deal either way; the games are easy for veterans, so use whichever Pokemon you like.

 

[prog rocker]

How is it going, any progress?

Sorry for replying twice to this message, but I will continue here.

 

[Alola]

It's not that Chikorita is the best Pokemon with which to solo the game. That's not remotely true, and if we're judging the starters based on that Totodile wins. It's not that Chikorita has the best stat distribution, or is useful against the most gyms and story battles. That would be Cyndaquil. It's simply that Chikorita is far and away the best Pokemon of its type.

If you want a viable Fire type Pokemon, you've got Ninetails, Arcanine, Magmar, Rapidash, and eventually Entei and / or Ho-oh to choose from.

If you want a viable Water type pokemon, one could make the argument Quagsire is better than Totodile due to Water Absorb and superior typing and coverage. Don't like Quagsire? Between Polywrath, Gyrados, Cloyster, Kingdra, and Tentacruel, I'm sure you can find one you like, or at least one which will get you through until you get Suicune.

But if you don't choose Chikorita, what are your options? Jumpluff, which is the only other Grass type with over 60 speed, but which hits like a feather and lasts about just as long in battle. Weepinbell (since you get no leaf stone till after the national dex to evolve it into Victreebell), Bellossom (no vileplume since again no leaf stone), Sunflora, Tangrowth, Parasect, and Exeggutor all have a max 55 speed among them to go with their massive amounts of defensive weaknesses. And that's it. That's the entire list of Pokemon who are even Partially grass type in this game, obtainable before the national dex. They are all Terrible! Meanwhile Meganium may not be the strongest Pokemon ever, but it still has 80 speed, good bulk, decent attacking stats, and it outright Shames any other options from the Grass type.

Now maybe you don't feel you need a grass type at all. That's certainly true. But if you Do want a Grass type, you *must* choose Chikorita, or your options are trash. That is definitely not true of Fire or Water types, and due to that, I vote Chikorita as the best starter. Also note that you don't need to use your starter for gyms, story battles, etc. They *can* play second fiddle, you get 6 slots to use on Pokemon, and Chikorita can learn several field moves to supplement its usefulness. Thoughts? Am I crazy, or is there merit to this?

So...your belief is that Chikorita is the best Johto Starter in Heartgold and Soulsilver, because Meganium is one of the better Grass types of an average HGSS play-through?

That's nonsensical. It's fine to have the opinion of it being the best Starter, but since you seem to want to bring statistical information into it, then let's really take a look into things.

Firstly, let's start with how the Grass-type does in Johto, period. In a word? Rough. The Grass type does poorly against 4 out of the 8 Johto Gyms (5 if you count Pryce, who can also hit you back with Ice-type moves), 3 out of the 4 Elite Four members, struggles heavily against the Champion, and is at a disadvantage against the regional villainous team's most often used type. Compare that to how vastly better the Fire-type and Water-type perform (or, Cyndaquil and Totodile respectively), and you can hardly say Chikorita is the "best." The "best" choice doesn't have nearly as much opposition. And no, we're not referencing aspects you can do to mitigate that, such as over-leveling or making specific move-sets; no, we're looking at the inherent, key match-ups within the region. You can't tell me Chikorita/Meganium is superior when I would statistically have an easier time with my Ice Fang/Dragon Clawing Feraligatr.

But sure-even though the Grass type sucks in Johto, unfortunately, let's say you want to use it anyway; maybe you like a challenge or have a specific party member desire. Sure! Then let's talk about the options you have.

(since you get no leaf stone till after the national dex to evolve it into Victreebell), Bellossom (no vileplume since again no leaf stone),

I really hate when misinformation is spread like this. While this was true in the original Johto games, the devs alleviated this issue by making Leaf Stones (along with the other basic evolutionary stones) available prior to the National Pokedex. You can buy Leaf Stones on Saturdays, for 2500 points-before the National Dex. Don't want to wait that long? Switch your DS clock. Either way, both Vileplume and Victreebel are available much earlier than you give them credit for; you can even get them before you'd get a Meganium. Thus, the flower dinosaur actually has competition from its peers.

You keep making note of the Speed stat of the other Grass-types, but Speed isn't everything to a Pokemon's usefulness. While 80 base speed is good for Johto's standards, it isn't a priority given the enemies you'd likely send your Grass type out against. Furthermore, Victreebel, Vileplume, Bellossom, Tangrowth (who is the most versatile attacker of these Grass-types), and Exeggutor all have the Chlorophyll Ability-combo that with the free Sunny Day TM you get in the game, and they all become lightning bruisers with their speed doubled, outspeeding Meganium. Through this boost, they can even make better use of Solar Beam than Meganium can. But let's dial back to the dual Grass/Poison types though. Firstly, that's a better typing offensively and defensively than pure Grass, giving those two another advantage over Meganium. Secondly, they can both make use of their Poison STAB with the free Sludge Bomb TM you get-it does 90 BP and let's them hit opponents (like Lance's army of Flying types) in places where their Grass type moves can't. Did I mention Bellossom, Tangrowth, and Exeggutor can learn the move as well? You know who can't? Meganium (for some odd reason). It's offensively outclassed by all the other Pokemon I mentioned, as they all have higher Special Attack stats (which is Meganium's primary attacking stat, unless you're trying to go the physical route via Swords Dance).

Meganium can't even use the various spore techniques the others can. It is stuck with only Poison Powder (which isn't as useful as the other two), while all the others I mentioned get Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, and Poison Powder, if not at least 2 of the 3. This is pretty vital as Grass-types aren't exactly known for their brute strength. You also mentioned it gets several field moves over the others, but that would only amount to Strength (with Tangrowth and Exeggutor can learn) and Rock Smash. Why would you waste those moves on it, especially when Body Slam outclasses Strength?

Now, this isn't all to say Meganium is weaker than its Grass kin, in these games-no. However, they all (barring Jumpluff and Sunflora, because you're right-those are pretty terrible) have their own strengths that make them comparable to each other, not superior. Yes, even Parasect has its merit with guaranteed sleep from Spore (which you get at a low level). As for Meganium, is it more well-rounded with its stats? Oh, yes. It's also the only one of group to offer Dual Screen support (although Tangrowth can learn Reflect), which can help out for tough fights or just improve party longevity. It also has a better command of Grass moves over its peers (who either take a long time to learn things like Razor Leaf or are stuck with Mega Drain for what seems like forever)...but only slightly; being forced to choose between Razor Leaf and Gen IV Petal Dance isn't exactly impressive. Aside from these pros, that's about it, though; seeing how it's stuck to Grass and Normal type moves for damage, primarily, the others have it beat regarding attack versatility.

The other Grass options aren't "terrible" nor are players forced to pick Chikorita for a good Grass type for HGSS.

So, with all of this established, comments like this:

If you want a viable Fire type Pokemon, you've got Ninetails, Arcanine, Magmar, Rapidash, and eventually Entei and / or Ho-oh to choose from.

If you want a viable Water type pokemon, one could make the argument Quagsire is better than Totodile due to Water Absorb and superior typing and coverage. Don't like Quagsire? Between Polywrath, Gyrados, Cloyster, Kingdra, and Tentacruel, I'm sure you can find one you like, or at least one which will get you through until you get Suicune.

come off as subjective, as you can make the same case about the Grass types above. Also, small nitpick-Feraligatr is eons better than Quagsire for these games; off the bat, the alligator has a reliable way to handle the late-game Dragons while Quagsire does not.

I also have an anecdote to share. A while ago, I picked Chikorita for my HGSS Nuzlocke. If you know anything about that self-imposed challenge, it really stands to exactly highlight a Pokemon's usefulness in a given game. My Meganium, Willow, made it through Johto, but sadly perished in Kanto. That aside, while he had some uses, I honestly didn't use him as much as my other party members because either a) there wasn't a need or b) the opponent had a type advantage; it's difficult to use the line effectively in these games and to do so would make it a contrived action. I had to go out of my way to turn him into a Swords Dance variant (with Razor Leaf, Return, and Light Screen) just to get him to see more action. I also played through the games with Typhlosion, who is a much more effective (but also has its issues); Feraligatr speaks for itself. I've also had an easier time using a Bellosom in HGSS than I have Meganium.

I love Chikorita-it's the first Starter I've ever picked, back when I was a kid with Silver. And while it's fine to have the opinion of it being the best Johto Starter, if you're going to try to convince others with factual information, then you'd best come correct. The other HGSS Grass types have their ups and downs, but they aren't drastically inferior to a Meganium. With their pros and cons, they're all somewhat equitable in their play-through effectiveness.

EDIT: Whoops, Exeggutor also gets Dual Screens too. It has more weaknesses though, yet has Psychic STAB and better Grass Moves to use. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Esserise]

I mean, for an in-game team it hardly matters. These are easy games.

From a more strategic angle though, why would you choose Grass over Electric?

 

[Giant Octopodes]

So...your belief is that Chikorita is the best Johto Starter in Heartgold and Soulsilver, because Meganium is one of the better Grass types of an average HGSS play-through?

That's nonsensical. It's fine to have the opinion of it being the best Starter, but since you seem to want to bring statistical information into it, then let's really take a look into things.

Firstly, let's start with how the Grass-type does in Johto, period. In a word? Rough. The Grass type does poorly against 4 out of the 8 Johto Gyms (5 if you count Pryce, who can also hit you back with Ice-type moves), 3 out of the 4 Elite Four members, struggles heavily against the Champion, and is at a disadvantage against the regional villainous team's most often used type. Compare that to how vastly better the Fire-type and Water-type perform (or, Cyndaquil and Totodile respectively), and you can hardly say Chikorita is the "best." The "best" choice doesn't have nearly as much opposition. And no, we're not referencing aspects you can do to mitigate that, such as over-leveling or making specific move-sets; no, we're looking at the inherent, key match-ups within the region. You can't tell me Chikorita/Meganium is superior when I would statistically have an easier time with my Ice Fang/Dragon Clawing Feraligatr.

When did I say anything about soloing the game with it? Why would it need to do well against ANY gym, or the champion, or the elite 4? It can be tabled for every single one of those and still have a meaningful place on a playthrough team. After all, the game is not solely comprised of battles against the gym leaders and champions. There's merit to having success against wild pokemon and pokemon trainers while knowing HM moves. Yes, you would have an easier time with your Ice Fang / Dragon Clawing Feraligatr at Soloing the game. That's not what we're discussing here. It's also not like it is terrible vs all gyms, but more on that later.

I really hate when misinformation is spread like this. While this was true in the original Johto games, the devs alleviated this issue by making Leaf Stones (along with the other basic evolutionary stones) available prior to the National Pokedex. You can buy Leaf Stones on Saturdays, for 2500 points-before the National Dex. Don't want to wait that long? Switch your DS clock. Either way, both Vileplume and Victreebel are available much earlier than you give them credit for; you can even get them before you'd get a Meganium. Thus, the flower dinosaur actually has competition from its peers.

Switching your DS clock resets the safari zone progress for anyone playing on that console, among other things. Second, you're saying grinding to overlevel is off the table, but grinding to get an evolutionary stone is not? Why do you consider those things to be different? 2500 points isn't exactly chump change. That being said I appreciate the info, I was unaware of this myself, so thanks! I still don't think it has much competition, but hey, at least there's Some.

You keep making note of the Speed stat of the other Grass-types, but Speed isn't everything to a Pokemon's usefulness. While 80 base speed is good for Johto's standards, it isn't a priority given the enemies you'd likely send your Grass type out against. Furthermore, Victreebel, Vileplume, Bellossom, Tangrowth (who is the most versatile attacker of these Grass-types), and Exeggutor all have the Chlorophyll Ability-combo that with the free Sunny Day TM you get in the game, and they all become lightning bruisers with their speed doubled, outspeeding Meganium. Through this boost, they can even make better use of Solar Beam than Meganium can. But let's dial back to the dual Grass/Poison types though. Firstly, that's a better typing offensively and defensively than pure Grass, giving those two another advantage over Meganium. Secondly, they can both make use of their Poison STAB with the free Sludge Bomb TM you get-it does 90 BP and let's them hit opponents (like Lance's army of Flying types) in places where their Grass type moves can't. Did I mention Bellossom, Tangrowth, and Exeggutor can learn the move as well? You know who can't? Meganium (for some odd reason). It's offensively outclassed by all the other Pokemon I mentioned, as they all have higher Special Attack stats (which is Meganium's primary attacking stat, unless you're trying to go the physical route via Swords Dance).

Speed in Pokemon often determines which Pokemon wins the battle. Assuming it can OHKO with a super effective move, which most pokemon can in most circumstances. It's enough to be faster than Seel (45), Dewgong (70) and Piloswine (50), not to mention Cloyster (70), allowing you to easily sweep the entire Mahogany Gym (other than the lone Jynx which isn't weak to grass anyway) instead of being OHKO'd by the ice type moves of those Pokemon instead. This requires no setup, which since Sunny Day does not diminish the power of Ice Type Moves, would be suicide in this scenario anyway. Forgive the pun, but that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as situations for which the speed makes a drastic difference. Even assuming they get Sunny Day off, what exactly does being faster than Meganium achieve for them? Vs what Pokemon (where you'd want to use the Pokemon in question) do they gain an advantage? Also, using a move which does no damage, and gives the opponent a free chance to hurt you, while doubling the power of moves which are super effective vs you is not exactly what I would define as an optimal first move, especially vs foes which ideally you would sweep without needing the setup move at all.

Going back to your proposed competition: Grass / Poison types, supposedly offering superior offensive and defensive typing - you lose your weakness to Poison and Bug, two types you lack super effective moves against in turn regardless of the Pokemon you are using amongst the listed candidates. In fact, both of those types Resist grass moves and poison isn't super effective vs them, so there's no chance you'd be putting this Pokemon out there unless you were desperate, weakness or not. In turn, you gain a weakness to Psychic, a typing you would otherwise be totally neutral against, meaning a scenario where you actually Might throw this Pokemon out gets lost. Offensively, Poison is good against Grass, but not Grass/Poison (and grass/psychic is right out of course) and thus virtually no actual Pokemon you'll encounter in the game, and Fairy, which isn't present at all. Sorry but I disagree completely about that being a superior typing than pure grass. The point regarding neutral coverage vs flying is true vs Lance specifically, if we set aside the fact that you're using neutral moves instead of 4x super effective moves in that case, but Grass/Poison is still weak to flying, to be clear. His Pokemon just happen to not know any flying type moves.

Also to be clear Bellossom and Tangrowth using a non-stab move do not signficantly offensively outclass Meganium using a stab move. That's not accurate. Exeggutor does, a bit, and is a decent option if you're looking for a Grass / Psychic type. However overkill damage doesn't count for anything. If they are OHKO-able by either, there's no gain there, if they take 2 moves from either, there's no gain there. So it's only an advantage vs Pokemon that specifically Exeggutor takes fewer moves to kill, and considering it's either down a move to use its setup or taking extra hits right and left due to its speed, that's a narrow subset of circumstances. There is also the fact that it has 7 weaknesses and 45 speed.

Meganium can't even use the various spore techniques the others can. It is stuck with only Poison Powder (which isn't as useful as the other two), while all the others I mentioned get Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, and Poison Powder, if not at least 2 of the 3. This is pretty vital as Grass-types aren't exactly known for their brute strength. You also mentioned it gets several field moves over the others, but that would only amount to Strength (with Tangrowth and Exeggutor can learn) and Rock Smash. Why would you waste those moves on it, especially when Body Slam outclasses Strength?

The lack of Sleep Powder specifically is a big deal, I'm not going to deny that. It's incredibly powerful (albeit inconsistent) in battles and great for catching Pokemon. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Tangrowth though. You do realize you can't get one until Route 44, when you're done with 7 gyms, and have done the whole Team Rocket thing, and long after Entei and Raikou are available, right? And then if you catch it, it's 15 levels behind compared to the gym leader which is left, which it isn't super effective against anyway? I thought you weren't all about level grinding? But setting that aside, your argument is that a theoretical Exeggutor knowing Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Sunny Day, and I have to assume Solar Beam can learn Strength as well? Meganium can learn Petal Dance, [Magical Leaf or Giga Drain], and 2 HM moves and be just fine. You would "waste" those moves on it because you need to know HM moves to progress through the game. Ideally, you need to find homes for Cut, Strength, Fly, Surf, Waterfall, Whirlpool, Rock Climb, Rock Smash, and Flash on your team (assuming you don't care about the item saving attributes of dig and don't need headbutt). That's 1.5 moves per Pokemon. Fewer setup moves required and more HMs available is a big deal, in that context. And yes, you can always fly to a Pokemon center and swap out Pokemon, but then you're losing whole team members, assuming you're not level grinding and so forth as you said.

Now, this isn't all to say Meganium is weaker than its Grass kin, in these games-no. However, they all (barring Jumpluff and Sunflora, because you're right-those are pretty terrible) have their own strengths that make them comparable to each other, not superior. Yes, even Parasect has its merit with guaranteed sleep from Spore (which you get at a low level). As for Meganium, is it more well-rounded with its stats? Oh, yes. It's also the only one of group to offer Dual Screen support (although Tangrowth can learn Reflect), which can help out for tough fights or just improve party longevity. It also has a better command of Grass moves over its peers (who either take a long time to learn things like Razor Leaf or are stuck with Mega Drain for what seems like forever)...but only slightly; being forced to choose between Razor Leaf and Gen IV Petal Dance isn't exactly impressive. Aside from these pros, that's about it, though; seeing how it's stuck to Grass and Normal type moves for damage, primarily, the others have it beat regarding attack versatility.

The other Grass options aren't "terrible" nor are players forced to pick Chikorita for a good Grass type for HGSS.

Eh, agree to disagree. I think you severely undervalue the speed difference and underestimate the amount of downside involved in using Sunny Day as a setup move. Vs a Wild Pokemon, it's almost never going to be worth it, and given the themed nature of most trainers and gyms, it's dangerous and ill advised in most scenarios where it would be useful. Having Sunny Day, Sleep Powder, Solar Beam, misc attack eliminates the space for HM moves, which on a typing which is of limited usefulness in battle is a big deal. They specifically are too slow to effectively deal with the water / ice type Pokemon which are common in these games and which are problematic for most other Pokemon to deal with. While I agree lack of speed can be overcome (Quagsire was my MVP with its 35 speed and no HP recovery moves), I just don't see it in this case.

So, with all of this established, comments like this:

come off as subjective, as you can make the same case about the Grass types above. Also, small nitpick-Feraligatr is eons better than Quagsire for these games; off the bat, the alligator has a reliable way to handle the late-game Dragons while Quagsire does not.

How does Quagsire not have a way to deal with late game Dragons? Blizzard is available for sale any time in the Goldenrod city department store and does nearly twice the damage Ice Fang does, OHKOing anything weak to ice pretty comfortably. There is also Ice Beam, if your intermittent disgust with grinding doesn't apply differently to the game corner and the pokeathlete dome. And, if you like setup moves, Hail makes Blizzard not just 100% accurate, but makes it outright bypass the accuracy check. This is in addition to being immune to electric type attacks instead of weak to them, and having super effective moves vs Electric, Poison, and Steel while Feraligatr does not, while there is a steel gym and a poison based elite 4 member. Not to mention having water absorb, making it especially useful vs those aforementioned Tentacruel swarms. Not saying Feraligatr is bad, but eons better? Come on now.

I also have an anecdote to share. A while ago, I picked Chikorita for my HGSS Nuzlocke. If you know anything about that self-imposed challenge, it really stands to exactly highlight a Pokemon's usefulness in a given game. My Meganium, Willow, made it through Johto, but sadly perished in Kanto. That aside, while he had some uses, I honestly didn't use him as much as my other party members because either a) there wasn't a need or b) the opponent had a type advantage; it's difficult to use the line effectively in these games and to do so would make it a contrived action. I had to go out of my way to turn him into a Swords Dance variant (with Razor Leaf, Return, and Light Screen) just to get him to see more action. I also played through the games with Typhlosion, who is a much more effective (but also has its issues); Feraligatr speaks for itself. I've also had an easier time using a Bellosom in HGSS than I have Meganium.

It made it through Johto. Why would you need to use your Grass type more than other party members in a Johto game? I would Expect it to see lower usage than other party members. That's not the same as being useless. I used my grass type mostly vs water types, which are everywhere, and vs ground and rock types, which are common as well. As long as you're fast enough, it's fine. Which again, what Pokemon do you outspeed at 80, but not at 50?
Croconaw / Feraligatr / Poliwrath / Politoed / Goldeen / Seaking / Azumarill / Psyduck / Krabby / Kingler / Cloyster / Remoraid / Chinchou / Lanturn / Seel / Dewgong / Vaporeon / Horsea / Lapras / Omastar / Kabuto / Sandslash / Onix / Swinub / Piloswine / Donphan / Pupitar / Tyranitar.
Not to mention being within a favorable nature or a few EVs of passing up several others. It's just a bigger deal than you make it out to be, in my experience.

I love Chikorita-it's the first Starter I've ever picked, back when I was a kid with Silver. And while it's fine to have the opinion of it being the best Johto Starter, if you're going to try to convince others with factual information, then you'd best come correct. The other HGSS Grass types have their ups and downs, but they aren't drastically inferior to a Meganium. With their pros and cons, they're all somewhat equitable in their play-through effectiveness.

Again, agree to disagree, and back at you.

I mean, for an in-game team it hardly matters. These are easy games.

From a more strategic angle though, why would you choose Grass over Electric?

Oh I definitely have an electric type on my team at some point. Raikou tears up Gyrados and comes pre-leveled. However before Raikou is around, your only real choice for an electric type is Mareep and Magnemite. Both of which, before they learn Discharge, kinda stink. By the time they become good, Raikou is around, and you're well over halfway through the game. Plus I prefer having coverage for Quagsires which can otherwise be a problem, and having the flexibility to help both against ground types and electric types early game is nice. But what's wrong with both? Entei, Meganium, Raikou, Quagsire seems like a decent team to me.

 

[Alola]

When did I say anything about soloing the game with it? Why would it need to do well against ANY gym, or the champion, or the elite 4? It can be tabled for every single one of those and still have a meaningful place on a playthrough team. After all, the game is not solely comprised of battles against the gym leaders and champions. There's merit to having success against wild pokemon and pokemon trainers while knowing HM moves. Yes, you would have an easier time with your Ice Fang / Dragon Clawing Feraligatr at Soloing the game. That's not what we're discussing here. It's also not like it is terrible vs all gyms, but more on that later.

You didn't, but if you're going to say it's the best Starter for the game, then you have to analyze how it stacks up against the challenges of said game. It's up to the player how often you choose to involve Meganium in these key battles. The comparison with Feraligatr was to show that, compared to another possible Johto Starter, it won't be as effective. Ergo, it ain't the best.

Switching your DS clock resets the safari zone progress for anyone playing on that console, among other things. Second, you're saying grinding to overlevel is off the table, but grinding to get an evolutionary stone is not? Why do you consider those things to be different? 2500 points isn't exactly chump change. That being said I appreciate the info, I was unaware of this myself, so thanks! I still don't think it has much competition, but hey, at least there's Some.

Mentioning a couple negative effects regarding clock switching is unnecessary as you don't have to change the clock. But if you're going to mention potential aspects of the decision, then the same could be said that there are players who wouldn't care for the 24 hour time penalty; I certainly wouldn't. Subjective point is subjective.

And yes, I consider those two to be separate instances of grinding. Can you even call the Pokeathlon grinding when you're required to play as much for those points anyway? It's a mini-game designed for some degree of repetition. Grinding your Pokemon to be 5+ levels ahead of the next big opponent is not.

Speed in Pokemon often determines which Pokemon wins the battle. Assuming it can OHKO with a super effective move, which most pokemon can in most circumstances. It's enough to be faster than Seel (45), Dewgong (70) and Piloswine (50), not to mention Cloyster (70), allowing you to easily sweep the entire Mahogany Gym (other than the lone Jynx which isn't weak to grass anyway) instead of being OHKO'd by the ice type moves of those Pokemon instead. This requires no setup, which since Sunny Day does not diminish the power of Ice Type Moves, would be suicide in this scenario anyway. Forgive the pun, but that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as situations for which the speed makes a drastic difference. Even assuming they get Sunny Day off, what exactly does being faster than Meganium achieve for them? Vs what Pokemon (where you'd want to use the Pokemon in question) do they gain an advantage? Also, using a move which does no damage, and gives the opponent a free chance to hurt you, while doubling the power of moves which are super effective vs you is not exactly what I would define as an optimal first move, especially vs foes which ideally you would sweep without needing the setup move at all.

That may be true about Speed, but your argument was that because Meganium has a higher Speed than the other Grass types, it's automatically better than them. The discussion about Chlorophyll was to show the irony in your statement.

By the way, your scenario for a Gym Battle with Pryce could easily be said the same for the others. Turn 1: Set-up Sunny Day against Seel, and Turn 2: Sweep everyone with Solar Beam (or some other Grass move).

Going back to your proposed competition: Grass / Poison types, supposedly offering superior offensive and defensive typing - you lose your weakness to Poison and Bug, two types you lack super effective moves against in turn regardless of the Pokemon you are using amongst the listed candidates. In fact, both of those types Resist grass moves and poison isn't super effective vs them, so there's no chance you'd be putting this Pokemon out there unless you were desperate, weakness or not. In turn, you gain a weakness to Psychic, a typing you would otherwise be totally neutral against, meaning a scenario where you actually Might throw this Pokemon out gets lost. Offensively, Poison is good against Grass, but not Grass/Poison (and grass/psychic is right out of course) and thus virtually no actual Pokemon you'll encounter in the game, and Fairy, which isn't present at all. Sorry but I disagree completely about that being a superior typing than pure grass. The point regarding neutral coverage vs flying is true vs Lance specifically, if we set aside the fact that you're using neutral moves instead of 4x super effective moves in that case, but Grass/Poison is still weak to flying, to be clear. His Pokemon just happen to not know any flying type moves.

You can disagree all you'd like, but Grass/Poison only has 4 weaknesses while pure Grass has 5. How you can refute something objectively factual like that...is baffling. Furthermore, I'd take the Fighting resistance (that Grass/Poison types have) over the Ground resistance (that Grass types would have instead) in these games because it'd give you a better matchup against Chuck and Bruno.

Also to be clear Bellossom and Tangrowth using a non-stab move do not signficantly offensively outclass Meganium using a stab move. That's not accurate. Exeggutor does, a bit, and is a decent option if you're looking for a Grass / Psychic type. However overkill damage doesn't count for anything. If they are OHKO-able by either, there's no gain there, if they take 2 moves from either, there's no gain there. So it's only an advantage vs Pokemon that specifically Exeggutor takes fewer moves to kill, and considering it's either down a move to use its setup or taking extra hits right and left due to its speed, that's a narrow subset of circumstances. There is also the fact that it has 7 weaknesses and 45 speed.

Yes it does-if a Pokemon has more, diverse attacking options compared to another, especially if they're of the same type, then they are outclassed in that regard. For example, Bellossom/Tangrowth would fare better against other pure Grass-type opponents than Meganium would since they could hit super-effectively with Sludge Bomb (and before you make a whole response on how often such a match-up would occur in HGSS, again-it's an example). Just like how Meganium and Tangrowth could better battle Flying types since they can have Ancient Power.

The lack of Sleep Powder specifically is a big deal, I'm not going to deny that. It's incredibly powerful (albeit inconsistent) in battles and great for catching Pokemon. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Tangrowth though. You do realize you can't get one until Route 44, when you're done with 7 gyms, and have done the whole Team Rocket thing, and long after Entei and Raikou are available, right? And then if you catch it, it's 15 levels behind compared to the gym leader which is left, which it isn't super effective against anyway? I thought you weren't all about level grinding? But setting that aside, your argument is that a theoretical Exeggutor knowing Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Sunny Day, and I have to assume Solar Beam can learn Strength as well? Meganium can learn Petal Dance, [Magical Leaf or Giga Drain], and 2 HM moves and be just fine. You would "waste" those moves on it because you need to know HM moves to progress through the game. Ideally, you need to find homes for Cut, Strength, Fly, Surf, Waterfall, Whirlpool, Rock Climb, Rock Smash, and Flash on your team (assuming you don't care about the item saving attributes of dig and don't need headbutt). That's 1.5 moves per Pokemon. Fewer setup moves required and more HMs available is a big deal, in that context. And yes, you can always fly to a Pokemon center and swap out Pokemon, but then you're losing whole team members, assuming you're not level grinding and so forth as you said.

I "bring up" Tangrowth no more than the other viable options when discussing their strengths that you ignored in your initial post. While that is true about Tangrowth, it is still available in time for the most difficult Gym Battle in the game, can be present for the Elite Four challenge, and has several strengths that warrant mention. Besides, its late-game Johto appearance is trivial considering how, again, Grass isn't even necessary in the region.

Also, grinding to meet the level requirement of an area is okay ("Hey, I just caught this new Pokemon inaccessible to me before and I have to grind it up to be around the same level of my party").

Grinding to overpower something, especially when there are other viable choices to use, is what I was referring to ("Gee, my Meganium just keeps dying in this Fire-based Gym. Let me grind it 10 levels higher, so even super-effective moves won't 2HKO it"). I thought that distinction was clear when I specifically mentioned "over-leveling."

Eh, agree to disagree. I think you severely undervalue the speed difference and underestimate the amount of downside involved in using Sunny Day as a setup move. Vs a Wild Pokemon, it's almost never going to be worth it, and given the themed nature of most trainers and gyms, it's dangerous and ill advised in most scenarios where it would be useful. Having Sunny Day, Sleep Powder, Solar Beam, misc attack eliminates the space for HM moves, which on a typing which is of limited usefulness in battle is a big deal. They specifically are too slow to effectively deal with the water / ice type Pokemon which are common in these games and which are problematic for most other Pokemon to deal with. While I agree lack of speed can be overcome (Quagsire was my MVP with its 35 speed and no HP recovery moves), I just don't see it in this case.

That's fine. It's a general play-through though and is easy- it's not a competitive VGC match; Speed isn't that crucial to the success of whatever Grass-type you pick. I've used slow Pokemon in HGSS and I've been fine; I've seen others do the same. Often times, you'll still be able to outspeed what you're fighting by virtue of EVs, IVs, natures, the free Choice Scarf you get, etc. Everyone plays the game different and has different priorities.

How does Quagsire not have a way to deal with late game Dragons? Blizzard is available for sale any time in the Goldenrod city department store and does nearly twice the damage Ice Fang does, OHKOing anything weak to ice pretty comfortably. There is also Ice Beam, if your intermittent disgust with grinding doesn't apply differently to the game corner and the pokeathlete dome. And, if you like setup moves, Hail makes Blizzard not just 100% accurate, but makes it outright bypass the accuracy check. This is in addition to being immune to electric type attacks instead of weak to them, and having super effective moves vs Electric, Poison, and Steel while Feraligatr does not, while there is a steel gym and a poison based elite 4 member. Not to mention having water absorb, making it especially useful vs those aforementioned Tentacruel swarms. Not saying Feraligatr is bad, but eons better? Come on now.

I said Feraligatr has a more reliable way to deal with Dragons over Quagsire; don't mischaracterize that. Ice Fang and Dragon Claw, along with Feraligatr's bulk, is better suited to fighting Kingdra, the Dragonairs, and the three Dragonites.

But let's compare Blizzards between the two:

0 SpA Quagsire Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 132-156 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Feraligatr Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 172-204 (103.6 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All Pokemon in this calculation are level 50, by the way-to honor what you'd face against Lance. As you can see, without augmentation of any kind, Quagsire can, at best, only 2HKO Dragonite with Blizzard while Feraligatr outright KOes it (same goes for Ice Beam). It doesn't get any clearer than that; any support you might argue to help Quagsire can be done for Feraligatr, so it's a moot point. Objectively, the alligator is better. Also, I mention Ice Fang for several reasons a) Totodile naturally gets it in its movepool with no outside grinding required (Ice Beam or paying for Blizzard), b) it plays better to the line's physical strength and can be boosted with a Swords Dance, and c) it can cause flinching, which you can possibly abuse with a Choice Scarf. Oh, and it has much higher accuracy than Blizzard.

Also, I'm not refuting that Quagsire can handle Jasmine better than Feraligatr; however, your claim against Koga is moot as only one of his Pokemon is actually weak to Ground I suppose you can argue though that Quaggy would resist any Poison hits better...but the AI wouldn't be likely to attack with Poison moves in that case, so.

According to an admission of yours earlier though, you seem biased towards Quagsire. If Quagsire and Feraligatr's stats and movepools were swapped, I'd be arguing the same for Quagsire now.

It made it through Johto. Why would you need to use your Grass type more than other party members in a Johto game? I would Expect it to see lower usage than other party members. That's not the same as being useless. I used my grass type mostly vs water types, which are everywhere, and vs ground and rock types, which are common as well. As long as you're fast enough, it's fine. Which again, what Pokemon do you outspeed at 80, but not at 50?
Croconaw / Feraligatr / Poliwrath / Politoed / Goldeen / Seaking / Azumarill / Psyduck / Krabby / Kingler / Cloyster / Remoraid / Chinchou / Lanturn / Seel / Dewgong / Vaporeon / Horsea / Lapras / Omastar / Kabuto / Sandslash / Onix / Swinub / Piloswine / Donphan / Pupitar / Tyranitar.
Not to mention being within a favorable nature or a few EVs of passing up several others. It's just a bigger deal than you make it out to be, in my experience.

Because, again, the whole point of this thread is to discuss if Chikorita is the best Starter of HGSS. If you only use it against specifically few opponents, a.k.a. everything you mentioned, that's not the "best." Your entire response to my own seems different than what you were trying to argue initially; you're just defending your choices because you like them, not because there's objective weight to your reasoning. Which, if you were going to do anyway, begs the question why you'd even make the thread and ask others to offer information to the contrary of your opinion. You asked to be challenged and that's what happening-undermining that conversation by saying I'm making "a bigger deal" is weak, and shows it's not worth it to even try and merit further conversation. So, yes-we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

You didn't, but if you're going to say it's the best Starter for the game, then you have to analyze how it stacks up against the challenges of said game. It's up to the player how often you choose to involve Meganium in these key battles. The comparison with Feraligatr was to show that, compared to another possible Johto Starter, it won't be as effective. Ergo, it ain't the best.

The argument I made was that it is the most unique among its typing and thus it is the best option in regards to overall team composition - it's the most irreplaceable. Your arguments regarding other grass types in comparison to it are valid in regards to that argument, and your arguments in regards to Feraligatr vs Quagsire are valid, but arguments regarding Feraligatr vs Meganium are not, because they're not the same type, and as previously discussed there are plenty of other options for a given typing. You would use Feraligatr more than Meganium, sure, but you're using Feraligatr Instead Of Quagsire, or Starmie, or Pokemon like that, not instead of Meganium. Does that make sense?

Mentioning a couple negative effects regarding clock switching is unnecessary as you don't have to change the clock. But if you're going to mention potential aspects of the decision, then the same could be said that there are players who wouldn't care for the 24 hour time penalty; I certainly wouldn't. Subjective point is subjective.

And yes, I consider those two to be separate instances of grinding. Can you even call the Pokeathlon grinding when you're required to play as much for those points anyway? It's a mini-game designed for some degree of repetition. Grinding your Pokemon to be 5+ levels ahead of the next big opponent is not.

I did not engage with the Pokeathlon Dome at all during my playthrough of the game. It is not required in any way, so any time you spend there is automatically extra. On the other hand, walking only to your next objective and to items visible on the overworld, and fighting only the trainers you encounter along those paths, you will automatically be overleveled vs key story opponents unless you run from battles or spend money on repels (or frequently change team composition). So yes, I would consider the Pokeathlon to be grinding, much more than I would most other activities.

That may be true about Speed, but your argument was that because Meganium has a higher Speed than the other Grass types, it's automatically better than them. The discussion about Chlorophyll was to show the irony in your statement.

By the way, your scenario for a Gym Battle with Pryce could easily be said the same for the others. Turn 1: Set-up Sunny Day against Seel, and Turn 2: Sweep everyone with Solar Beam (or some other Grass move).

My apologies if I did not make it crystal clear, I thought I had. My argument is not that because it has a higher speed, it's automatically better than them. If I believed that, the argument would be for Jumpluff, would it not? My argument is that the speed difference between them significantly impacts actual battles in which you may want to use a grass type Pokemon. And again, Turn 1 - Set up with Sunny Day. Also Turn 1 - Seel uses Icy Wind and OHKOs you since it's super effective and Sunny Day does not reduce its efficacy. So no, it doesn't easily go the same way for others.

You can disagree all you'd like, but Grass/Poison only has 4 weaknesses while pure Grass has 5. How you can refute something objectively factual like that...is baffling. Furthermore, I'd take the Fighting resistance (that Grass/Poison types have) over the Ground resistance (that Grass types would have instead) in these games because it'd give you a better matchup against Chuck and Bruno.

Yes it does-if a Pokemon has more, diverse attacking options compared to another, especially if they're of the same type, then they are outclassed in that regard. For example, Bellossom/Tangrowth would fare better against other pure Grass-type opponents than Meganium would since they could hit super-effectively with Sludge Bomb (and before you make a whole response on how often such a match-up would occur in HGSS, again-it's an example). Just like how Meganium and Tangrowth could better battle Flying types since they can have Ancient Power.

First, not all weaknesses are the same, and not all examples are the same. The game isn't made up of theory, it's made up of actual pokemon, with actual encounter tables and so forth. There is no grass type gym, there are no grass equivalencies to bug catchers (bugs) fisherman (water) pyromancers (fire) psychics (psychic) hikers (rock / ground) or birdkeepers (flying). If you choose Chikorita, there the only pure grass types you could possibly encounter would be Sunkern, in the national park, and Tangela, in a totally optional patch of grass that requires surf to reach prior to the 8th gym. That's it.

Chuck - His only Fighting type move is Focus Punch, which is powerful enough to OHKO without a weakness to it, but only works if you're using a setup move, like Sunny Day or a failed Sleep Powder. So no, the resistance to fighting on Pokemon more prone to setup moves does not provide them with a better matchup necessarily. I'd rather outspeed the one I'd actually want to use a grass type on (Poliwrath, speed 70), nuke it down with grass type moves, and get out vs Mankey, since Rock Slide is scary regardless of which grass type you are using. Bruno, on the other hand, has two Onix with Earthquake, which Meganium resists and outspeeds while the poison types do not. So I certainly agree with the premise that those fights matter, but disagree with your conclusion. BTW Hitmonchan and Machamp also fall into the category of "Pokemon Meganium outspeeds but other grass type options do not", so there's that factor as well.

In regards to the idea that fewer weaknesses are automatically better, regardless of what they are, and that's just "factual", are you really saying you would use your grass / poison type against bug or poison types? If not, where do those moves show up as coverage moves to where you'd be worried about them?

I "bring up" Tangrowth no more than the other viable options when discussing their strengths that you ignored in your initial post. While that is true about Tangrowth, it is still available in time for the most difficult Gym Battle in the game, can be present for the Elite Four challenge, and has several strengths that warrant mention. Besides, its late-game Johto appearance is trivial considering how, again, Grass isn't even necessary in the region.

Also, grinding to meet the level requirement of an area is okay ("Hey, I just caught this new Pokemon inaccessible to me before and I have to grind it up to be around the same level of my party").

Grinding to overpower something, especially when there are other viable choices to use, is what I was referring to ("Gee, my Meganium just keeps dying in this Fire-based Gym. Let me grind it 10 levels higher, so even super-effective moves won't 2HKO it"). I thought that distinction was clear when I specifically mentioned "over-leveling."

Yeah I think we have a different idea of what grinding means. Again you can simply not take measures to prevent it, and end up being overleveled. Not one step taken which is not moving the story forward. Tangela, having to gain an extra 15 levels and specifically going out of your way to do so, is fine in your eyes but specifically going out of your way to gain 10 levels with another one is not, based on... the person's motivation? For me, if I need to go out of my way to do it - to put in extra effort which is not going towards the general clearing of the game but is instead specifically for that Pokemon alone, that's grinding, and I l prefer to avoid it where possible regardless of motivation.

That's fine. It's a general play-through though and is easy- it's not a competitive VGC match; Speed isn't that crucial to the success of whatever Grass-type you pick. I've used slow Pokemon in HGSS and I've been fine; I've seen others do the same. Often times, you'll still be able to outspeed what you're fighting by virtue of EVs, IVs, natures, the free Choice Scarf you get, etc. Everyone plays the game different and has different priorities.

I said Feraligatr has a more reliable way to deal with Dragons over Quagsire; don't mischaracterize that. Ice Fang and Dragon Claw, along with Feraligatr's bulk, is better suited to fighting Kingdra, the Dragonairs, and the three Dragonites.

But let's compare Blizzards between the two:

0 SpA Quagsire Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 132-156 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Feraligatr Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 172-204 (103.6 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All Pokemon in this calculation are level 50, by the way-to honor what you'd face against Lance. As you can see, without augmentation of any kind, Quagsire can, at best, only 2HKO Dragonite with Blizzard while Feraligatr outright KOes it (same goes for Ice Beam). It doesn't get any clearer than that; any support you might argue to help Quagsire can be done for Feraligatr, so it's a moot point. Objectively, the alligator is better. Also, I mention Ice Fang for several reasons a) Totodile naturally gets it in its movepool with no outside grinding required (Ice Beam or paying for Blizzard), b) it plays better to the line's physical strength and can be boosted with a Swords Dance, and c) it can cause flinching, which you can possibly abuse with a Choice Scarf. Oh, and it has much higher accuracy than Blizzard.

Also, I'm not refuting that Quagsire can handle Jasmine better than Feraligatr; however, your claim against Koga is moot as only one of his Pokemon is actually weak to Ground I suppose you can argue though that Quaggy would resist any Poison hits better...but the AI wouldn't be likely to attack with Poison moves in that case, so.

According to an admission of yours earlier though, you seem biased towards Quagsire. If Quagsire and Feraligatr's stats and movepools were swapped, I'd be arguing the same for Quagsire now.

First, Blizzard doesn't require grinding - I ended up with like 400k by game's end without any special effort and while freely spending my money. Spending 5k on something is not grinding. Second - where did you get those calculations? I'd love to know because that seems like a very useful tool. I can personally vouch for my Quagsire comfortably and reliably OHKOing dragon types with blizzard, and it was not overleveled. I'd love to know what amount of EVs or IVs was involved in that occurring. Also it only has a higher accuracy if it's not hailing, and I thought you considered setup moves to be virtually downside free ;-P I jest, of course. You still do it though where you present like 5 options as though you can use all of them. You're not boosting it with swords dance if you're using a choice scarf, and flinching doesn't matter if they're dead. All of this is not to say that I consdier Quagsire to be Better than Feraligatr in relation to fighting dragons. It's obviously not. It was simply adequate for that task. If I was concerned about the 'optimal' way of fighting the dragons, I'd probably go for a Starmie with Ice Beam, but obviously that would require an insane amount of grinding in the game corner so I'd never go that route.

As far as Koga, hey one is still one, right? XD The bug and steel types are better fought by something with a fire type move, sure. But Feraligatr doesn't fare any better against them, other than perhaps the Crobat which can get... annoying, if Blizzard misses and it starts to Double Team. So at worst I'd say it's even in regards to that.

Because, again, the whole point of this thread is to discuss if Chikorita is the best Starter of HGSS. If you only use it against specifically few opponents, a.k.a. everything you mentioned, that's not the "best." Your entire response to my own seems different than what you were trying to argue initially; you're just defending your choices because you like them, not because there's objective weight to your reasoning. Which, if you were going to do anyway, begs the question why you'd even make the thread and ask others to offer information to the contrary of your opinion. You asked to be challenged and that's what happening-undermining that conversation by saying I'm making "a bigger deal" is weak, and shows it's not worth it to even try and merit further conversation. So, yes-we'll just agree to disagree.

Those opponents are just the water, rock, and ground types where the speed makes a difference. As in, the types of opponents you would want to use a grass type against. My response has been consistent with my initial argument, which I've repeated multiple times- it's not that Chikorita is the best pokemon with which to solo the game. It's that Chickorita is superior to other grass types available and is the most irreplacable in an overall team composition when compared to other available options. The speed is critical because Onix, as an example, gets obliterated by Meganium but can otherwise take out grass types before they get off their attacks. Vs rock and ground types, and water and ice types, where grass is very useful, but you're looking at trading super effective moves and the first one to act wins, speed matters. What I said is that the speed difference is "a bigger deal" than you make it out to be. At no point did I say anything about you making "a bigger deal", just like I never said Chikorita is the best Pokemon because it fares the best against the largest number of opponents or gyms, or anything like that. By the way, that list is Only a limited subset of the number of Pokemon where the speed difference matters, and only ones likely to make a difference - such as Seel, Dewgong, etc, which have a practical effect in a playthrough.

I enjoy the discussion, I'm sorry you do not. I enjoy having my theories and opinions challenged, and do my best to respond with accurate and logic based responses, rather than personal attacks. I defend them because I believe them to be true, while taking into account new information when provided. I engage in such discussion because it's a great way to learn - for example, I did not know about the Pokeathlon dome having a leaf stone on saturday, and though it does not change my conclusion, it significantly changes the framing of the discussion. I would love to know of what tool you used to perform your damage calculations. But hey, if you can't handle being challenged in turn and want to bail that's fine, to each their own.

 

[Alola]

The argument I made was that it is the most unique among its typing and thus it is the best option in regards to overall team composition - it's the most irreplaceable. Your arguments regarding other grass types in comparison to it are valid in regards to that argument, and your arguments in regards to Feraligatr vs Quagsire are valid, but arguments regarding Feraligatr vs Meganium are not, because they're not the same type, and as previously discussed there are plenty of other options for a given typing. You would use Feraligatr more than Meganium, sure, but you're using Feraligatr Instead Of Quagsire, or Starmie, or Pokemon like that, not instead of Meganium. Does that make sense?

It doesn't make sense to me, because, in that case, I would feel the same way if I chose Meganium-I'd be missing out on the chance of using Bellossom, Vilepume, etc. Which goes back to how we disagree on the uniqueness of Meganium in comparison to the other Grass choices.

I enjoy the discussion, I'm sorry you do not. I enjoy having my theories and opinions challenged, and do my best to respond with accurate and logic based responses, rather than personal attacks. I defend them because I believe them to be true, while taking into account new information when provided. I engage in such discussion because it's a great way to learn - for example, I did not know about the Pokeathlon dome having a leaf stone on saturday, and though it does not change my conclusion, it significantly changes the framing of the discussion. I would love to know of what tool you used to perform your damage calculations. But hey, if you can't handle being challenged in turn and want to bail that's fine, to each their own.

Here's the link to the damage calculator, which is a really nifty tool-enjoy! I think you had a question earlier about EV investment for the calculation I made? Both parties had zero IV and EV investment, for the fairest comparison. Because you're right-EV investment really changes the way a Pokemon could typically perform, huh? ...like when I argued earlier about that Speed issue you mentioned for Meganium's competition.

Anyway, I have no problem being challenged-you're not the first user to do so and you certainly won't be the last. However, when it's clear that 2+ people are going to ultimately agree to disagree, which you and I have already established, then there's no point derailing the thread with a personal conversation that'll go nowhere. So, understand the difference between that and "bailing"; you seem relatively new to the forums, so this is something that is better to learn now for future discussions with other people who you may disagree with or that disagree with you. You still think Meganium is the best HGSS Starter, whereas I don't. You still think it's the best Grass-type in HGSS, whereas I don't. You're not willing to change your chance as am I, in light of what has been discussed. And, again, you literally said "agree to disagree" for several points before I did, which halts any conversation for said topic(s). Thus, we're done.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I just have to address this. It's just so blatantly wrong, my goodness.

And again, Turn 1 - Set up with Sunny Day. Also Turn 1 - Seel uses Icy Wind and OHKOs you since it's super effective and Sunny Day does not reduce its efficacy. So no, it doesn't easily go the same way for others.

Pryce's Seel (which isn't even Ice-typed and lacks STAB) is level 30, and has no IVs or EV investment along with a neutral nature, so all of these calculations have everyone at level 30 and that in mind.

Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 16-20 (18.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Victreebel: 22-28 (25 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 26-32 (26 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 22-26 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Bellossom: 14-18 (16.4 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
for fun:
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Sunflora: 16-20 (18.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 30 0 SpA Seel Icy Wind vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 32-40 (37.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Quad-weak to Ice, too)

Seeing as how the Chlorophyll boost still applies regardless of the speed drop, and is more significant, yes, you would be able to sweep and OHKO the rest of his team with Solar Beam.

 

[PageEmperor]

Well, this isn't wrong. It does learn both of the screens. That, and stuff like super early Razor leaf, Body slam, etc.

 

[nickdt]

No, its not the best.

Chikorita suffers throughout the whole game. I am even gonna say thats its the only pre-Physical/Special split starter that suffered from it as well, because of its shallow movepool and TM Usage and even HM usage it isn't better than Feraligatr (In HG/SS it can learn 7 out of 8 HM's, only Fly it can't learn).

 

[swiftgallade46]

Claiming that Chikorita is the best of its type available versus claiming it’s the best starter is not really the same thing. And as pointed out, you can in fact get a Leaf Stone in the storyline so even that opinion doesn’t necessarily hold water. I would personally go with Victreebel or Exeggutor.

So, yeah, disagreed on both accounts. It isn’t the best starter nor the best Grass-type available imo. Though subjectively it is the cutest <3

 

[RK9]

No.

Just no.

 

[Captain Save A Ho-Oh]

garbage mon