Controversial Opinion: Chikorita is the best starter in HeartGold / SoulSilver?

[Giant Octopodes]

Now I know, I know, it's madness. However, hear me out.

It's not that Chikorita is the best Pokemon with which to solo the game. That's not remotely true, and if we're judging the starters based on that Totodile wins. It's not that Chikorita has the best stat distribution, or is useful against the most gyms and story battles. That would be Cyndaquil. It's simply that Chikorita is far and away the best Pokemon of its type.

If you want a viable Fire type Pokemon, you've got Ninetails, Arcanine, Magmar, Rapidash, and eventually Entei and / or Ho-oh to choose from.

If you want a viable Water type pokemon, one could make the argument Quagsire is better than Totodile due to Water Absorb and superior typing and coverage. Don't like Quagsire? Between Polywrath, Gyrados, Cloyster, Kingdra, and Tentacruel, I'm sure you can find one you like, or at least one which will get you through until you get Suicune.

But if you don't choose Chikorita, what are your options? Jumpluff, which is the only other Grass type with over 60 speed, but which hits like a feather and lasts about just as long in battle. Weepinbell (since you get no leaf stone till after the national dex to evolve it into Victreebell), Bellossom (no vileplume since again no leaf stone), Sunflora, Tangrowth, Parasect, and Exeggutor all have a max 55 speed among them to go with their massive amounts of defensive weaknesses. And that's it. That's the entire list of Pokemon who are even Partially grass type in this game, obtainable before the national dex. They are all Terrible! Meanwhile Meganium may not be the strongest Pokemon ever, but it still has 80 speed, good bulk, decent attacking stats, and it outright Shames any other options from the Grass type.

Now maybe you don't feel you need a grass type at all. That's certainly true. But if you Do want a Grass type, you *must* choose Chikorita, or your options are trash. That is definitely not true of Fire or Water types, and due to that, I vote Chikorita as the best starter. Also note that you don't need to use your starter for gyms, story battles, etc. They *can* play second fiddle, you get 6 slots to use on Pokemon, and Chikorita can learn several field moves to supplement its usefulness. Thoughts? Am I crazy, or is there merit to this?

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Now maybe you don't feel you need a grass type at all. That's certainly true. But if you Do want a Grass type, you *must* choose Chikorita, or your options are trash. That is definitely not true of Fire or Water types, and due to that, I vote Chikorita as the best starter. Also note that you don't need to use your starter for gyms, story battles, etc. They *can* play second fiddle, you get 6 slots to use on Pokemon, and Chikorita can learn several field moves to supplement its usefulness. Thoughts? Am I crazy, or is there merit to this?

You don’t even really need a Grass type there, so you could settle for a powerful starter and *maybe* a mediocre grass type which again, can play second fiddle. You also

"Best Pokemon of its type" is more of an issue in a game where said type is actually important, like Fire in Sinnoh, where Infernape gets a lot of merit since it makes your job a lot easier. In Johto you won’t lose much by using a different grass type, but in Sinnoh, you'll lose out on a lot if you don’t chose Infernape. This rings specially true when Meganium has almost no coverage. Probably the only helpful support is screen set up that and that usually isn’t needed in playthroughs, and there are options for that.

The "best starter" merits are usually based on: is it powerful on its own? Does it play an integral part in the team? How does it work with the team? Type advantages against the gyms etc., so if someone modifies the criteria enough one can probably crown any starter the "best one".

 

[Giant Octopodes]

You don’t even really need a Grass type there, so you could settle for a powerful starter and *maybe* a mediocre grass type which again, can play second fiddle. You also

1. "Best Pokemon of its type" is more of an issue in a game where said type is actually important, like Fire in Sinnoh, where Infernape gets a lot of merit since it makes your job a lot easier. In Johto you won’t lose much by using a different grass type, but in Sinnoh, you'll lose out on a lot if you don’t chose Infernape. This rings specially true when Meganium has almost no coverage. Probably the only helpful support is screen set up that and that usually isn’t needed in playthroughs, and there are options for that.

The "best starter" merits are usually based on: 2. is it powerful on its own? 3. Does it play an integral part in the team? 4. How does it work with the team? 5. Type advantages against the gyms etc., so if someone modifies the criteria enough one can probably crown any starter the "best one".

Ok before I respond to the points you raised (which I added numbers to for easier clarity of discussion), I just want to point out that No type is needed, Pokemon is an easy game with a level system, and folks have beaten games with a single pokemon with 1 hp, among a myriad of other self imposed challenges. You can solo the game with a Wheezing if you are so inclined, it's actually a very good Pokemon, it just never sees use or consideration because folks naturally build their team around their starter, which is self imposed tradition and laziness more than meritous team building tactics, but it is what it is. It certainly works, though it's not the only point of reference to work from. Just saying, you don't "need" any given Pokemon, of Any type.

1. It's not an "issue", it's just something of note, a consideration. If I want a good grass type, this is by far my best option. If I want to build a team with a given coverage set and grass is a complementary piece of that (for example, a strong grass type nearly perfectly complements a strong fire type), I'm far better off long term with say Entei and Meganium than I am with Typhlosion and Bellossom, would you not agree? Again not at all required to beat the game, but as far as enabling different options for teambuilding, it's a strong and difficult to replace piece.

2. Though I'm specifically approaching it from a different angle than that, I did also point out that if you're looking for strongest on its own, IE strongest Solo Pokemon, Totodile is the best starter. However why would you need the strongest Pokemon on its own? Quagsire is arguably better suited for that task than Totodile is, and it's not inherently a solo game.

3. No pokemon plays an integral role on any team, not necessarily at least. Wheezing and Houndoom can partner up and take all comers just fine. Anything Typhlosion can do, Entei can do better. Anything Feraligatr can do, Suicune can do better. So how "integral" can they really be?

4. That is exactly why having the best Pokemon of a given type is great, because then it works best with the team. I can get through the game just fine (and am, nearly done) with a "team" of Typhlosion, Quagsire, and Weepinbell, plus 3 HM slaves. But for situations where Grass types are useful (against ground types and water types specifically, since the rest of my team is neutral or worse against them) I would *love* a better grass type, and Typhlosion is on my team while Entei sits in a box solely because I like most folks am going to use my starter through the whole game, even when it's not the best option. It's not a wise, rational, or strategic decision, and I really should replace my starter, because Entei would work better with my team. Something that would not happen if I was using Chikorita from the start.

5. Type advantages against the gyms are nice, but you can pick up a Pidgey or Hoothoot first thing, and they will have more advantageous matchups than Any of the starters will through the first 5 gyms, and by the time you reach gym 6, you have access to Pokemon of every type, so if you want a fire or water type you can have your pick of the litter. It's just not that important, especially because your starter is rarely the best option, and certainly isn't the only option.

Just my opinion of course, but I will point out that from every standpoint you list, Pidgey outclasses every starter, and Chikorita is the best complement to a Pidgey opener. Pidgey is weak vs Electric, Rock, and Ice, and neutral vs Water, all of which other than Ice are helped by a strong grass type. Ice, meanwhile, isn't common until late game, when you have plenty of answers for it. Waters advantages vs ground are redundant with flying's advantages, same with fire vs grass and bug. So in the early game, the most important time in the game, a team of Pidgey and Chickorita fares better than any other early Pokemon with any other starter, does it not? That combined with the fact that Chikorita has no reason to be replaced late game sure seems like a meritous starting point for an analysis of best starter to me!

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

1. It's not an "issue", it's just something of note, a consideration. If I want a good grass type, this is by far my best option. If I want to build a team with a given coverage set and grass is a complementary piece of that (for example, a strong grass type nearly perfectly complements a strong fire type), I'm far better off long term with say Entei and Meganium than I am with Typhlosion and Bellossom, would you not agree? Again not at all required to beat the game, but as far as enabling different options for teambuilding, it's a strong and difficult to replace piece.

Well, this is an unfair comparison since Entei is a legendary and not something you’d be starting your game with (or getting it reasonably early either). Meganium doesn’t really serve as a good grass type since it lacks powerful grass type options (the very reason you’re arguing Meganium is the "best starter"). It’s best options are Petal Dance, which leaves you unable to switch out, and Solar Beam, which requires prior set up.
Stuff like Bellossom gets lead storm for a one turn sweep, stun spore to add paralysis. And it also gets an additional inherent boost in the Sun due to Chlorophyll. Meganium might also end up useful, but it really isn’t that up high.

So in the early game, the most important time in the game, a team of Pidgey and Chickorita fares better than any other early Pokemon with any other starter, does it not? That combined with the fact that Chikorita has no reason to be replaced late game sure seems like a meritous starting point for an analysis of best starter to me!

Not really, Cyndaquil goes around OHKOing 90% of the stuff you see in the beginning of the game on its own. And the stuff which it isn’t strong against, it has enough attack power to brawn though, whereas Chikorita really needs that Pidgey support.

When someone goes for the "best starter", they usually mean a reliable thing which will get them through the game without fainting a lot, can hold its own alone when required, since starters tend to be the most high level Pokémon for obvious reasons. So touting the least mediocre choice out of a type you don’t require for a favourable match up in a game isn’t particularly helpful.

I’m not as passionate towards the issue as you seem to be. Meganium might be the best among grass types, but Grass in these games is, well, an overall mediocre type except for some highly specific situations.

In this highly specific scenario of yours Meganium might indeed be the best starter, but then the "best starter" title loses its usefulness.

 

[colours]

honestly, using a grass type period is pretty unnecessary in hgss (i say this as a huge grass type fan but unfortunately it's the case here). the most useful (emphasis on this) grass type move is giga drain/energy ball which a lot of the hgss dex can learn. what bothers me the most though is that every time i try to run meganium in hgss, it's usually some variant of a jack-of-all-trades moveset of some sort, which is frustrating because it truly is a master of none in particular. what's even more middling is that it's a defensive mono grass which actually hinders it more than helps it because grass on its own has five weaknesses.

maybe this is just me. i love the chikorita line but i feel like it's a frustrating line to work with given its shortcomings, and oftentimes it's less that meganium is supporting its allies and moreso the opposite -- you catch and train other pokemon moreso to support meganium and make up for its flaws than anything else.

i realize this is going on a bit of a tangent, but even meganium's best case scenario (a more defensive build) wouldn't be that viable for early game. sure, you can run dual screens, and maybe razor leaf/tackle or something, but good luck doing any real damage and again, meganium's teammates often have to make up offensively what it can provide defensively. but that is what having 6 pokemon is for, i suppose.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Well, this is an unfair comparison since Entei is a legendary and not something you’d be starting your game with (or getting it reasonably early either). Meganium doesn’t really serve as a good grass type since it lacks powerful grass type options (the very reason you’re arguing Meganium is the "best starter"). It’s best options are Petal Dance, which leaves you unable to switch out, and Solar Beam, which requires prior set up.
Stuff like Bellossom gets lead storm for a one turn sweep, stun spore to add paralysis. And it also gets an additional inherent boost in the Sun due to Chlorophyll. Meganium might also end up useful, but it really isn’t that up high.

Not really, Cyndaquil goes around OHKOing 90% of the stuff you see in the beginning of the game on its own. And the stuff which it isn’t strong against, it has enough attack power to brawn though, whereas Chikorita really needs that Pidgey support.

When someone goes for the "best starter", they usually mean a reliable thing which will get them through the game without fainting a lot, can hold its own alone when required, since starters tend to be the most high level Pokémon for obvious reasons. So touting the least mediocre choice out of a type you don’t require for a favourable match up in a game isn’t particularly helpful.

I’m not as passionate towards the issue as you seem to be. Meganium might be the best among grass types, but Grass in these games is, well, an overall mediocre type except for some highly specific situations.

In this highly specific scenario of yours Meganium might indeed be the best starter, but then the "best starter" title loses its usefulness.

It's all good! We're just talking Pokemon here, please don't think that just because I tend to throw a lot of words at it I'm riled up or otherwise "passionate" about it, I'm just having fun

As far as the first paragraph, you say it's not a fair comparison because Entei is a legendary you won't be getting reasonably early (level 30-40ish is when you can first reliably hunt it down, I caught mine when my starter was level 32) but then say Bellossom is better because it gets Leaf Storm, at level 53? In general both of them are going to be using Magical Leaf through most of the playthrough, though having the option to use Petal Dance certainly isn't a bad thing. Stun Spore is a good point, though Sleep Powder is better in my opinion (primarily because of its usefulness for catching Pokemon), but regarding having powerful grass type options, again I've been getting by with Weepinbell using vine whip, when used by a suitably leveled pokemon against a target for whom it is super effective, Magical Leaf will do just fine and can OHKO no problem. This is true of either Bellossom or Meganium, it's just the bulk and speed which appeals to me for Meganium. After all, when you're talking about Pokemon with 5 weaknesses, it matters a lot whether that OHKO happens before or after the enemy's turn. Final note, Bellossom needs that Chlorophyll, with it and sunny day, it's at the same speed as Meganium or thereabouts. So I wouldn't consider that ability as much of an advantage, in context.

And sure, Cyndaquil can solo the early game if it's so desired. But so can Pidgey, or Rattata for that matter, or lots of other Pokemon if you get a level advantage and nurse that through. But whereas Pidgey will have advantages both offensively and defensively vs Bug and Fighting types, and be immune to Ghost type moves (3 of the first 5 gyms), Cyndaquil is trying to get by based on stats and level advantages alone for everything other than Bug types in that same period. So yeah, Cyndaquil is a better solo early game option than Chikorita, but Pidgey is better still, would you disagree?

Thanks for the replies by the way! I appreciate it and the enjoyable discussion!

 

[Giant Octopodes]

honestly, using a grass type period is pretty unnecessary in hgss (i say this as a huge grass type fan but unfortunately it's the case here). the most useful (emphasis on this) grass type move is giga drain/energy ball which a lot of the hgss dex can learn. what bothers me the most though is that every time i try to run meganium in hgss, it's usually some variant of a jack-of-all-trades moveset of some sort, which is frustrating because it truly is a master of none in particular. what's even more middling is that it's a defensive mono grass which actually hinders it more than helps it because grass on its own has five weaknesses.

maybe this is just me. i love the chikorita line but i feel like it's a frustrating line to work with given its shortcomings, and oftentimes it's less that meganium is supporting its allies and moreso the opposite -- you catch and train other pokemon moreso to support meganium and make up for its flaws than anything else.

i realize this is going on a bit of a tangent, but even meganium's best case scenario (a more defensive built) wouldn't be that viable for early game. sure, you can run dual screens, and maybe razor leaf/tackle or something, but good luck doing any real damage and again, meganium's teammates often have to make up offensively what it can provide defensively. but that is what having 6 pokemon is for, i suppose.

Thanks for the reply! Agreed that grass period is wholly unnecessary. Between a water type and an electric type there's little a grass type can do that can't be done by other types with far less risk. However the same is true of the other types. There's little a fire type can do that a fighting and a flying type can't get done. There's little a water type can do that a grass type and a ground or rock type can't do instead, other than surf and get you around XD

The best combo in terms of typing advantages vs the gyms in this game definitely is Normal / Flying and Fighting. That gives you advantages vs the middle 6 of the 8 gyms, especially since the Ice gym is really a Water / Ice gym, so Fire loses a lot of its advantages there. Assuming you have that combo, the two gyms you still need coverage against is the Dragons (which calls for Ice or Fairy) and the first gym, the Flying gym, where you really can't get an advantageous matchup by that point in the game, regardless of which starter you choose.

My point here is simply that no one type is indispensable in battle in this game. Once I finish this playthrough, I might restart, and catch a Pidgey, level it to 5, then throw my starter in a box never to be seen again and treat Pidgey as my starter, test my theory and see how it feels vs this run w/ Cyndaquil. I'm curious if anyone has done that yet and how it went if so.

 

[prog rocker]

My point here is simply that no one type is indispensable in battle in this game. Once I finish this playthrough, I might restart, and catch a Pidgey, level it to 5, then throw my starter in a box never to be seen again and treat Pidgey as my starter, test my theory and see how it feels vs this run w/ Cyndaquil. I'm curious if anyone has done that yet and how it went if so.

Hi there. I have PkHex (to actually replace the starter) and a hacked 3DS so I might be able to check this out for you. Just give me a second to start a new Crystal file.

EDIT: What starter should Silver have?

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Hi there. I have PkHex (to actually replace the starter) and a hacked 3DS so I might be able to check this out for you. Just give me a second to start a new Crystal file.

EDIT: What starter should Silver have?

Is he limited to the default 3? Totodile will at least learn Ice Fang for 1 super effective move, but ideally speaking probably an electric type like Pikachu or something if possible? Sorry if that's ridiculous, not sure what limitations we're working with here

 

[prog rocker]

Is he limited to the default 3? Totodile will at least learn Ice Fang for 1 super effective move, but ideally speaking probably an electric type like Pikachu or something if possible? Sorry if that's ridiculous, not sure what limitations we're working with here

Yes, he's limited to the default three because it's still a normal game. Although I was going to do it with Crystal, I can change to SoulSilver if you want.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Yes, he's limited to the default three because it's still a normal game. Although I was going to do it with Crystal, I can change to SoulSilver if you want.

Crystal works too, nothing wrong with that, but then yeah Totodile seems like the way to go

 

[prog rocker]

Crystal works too, nothing wrong with that, but then yeah Totodile seems like the way to go

Okay, then Cyndaquil will be the poor starter to get replaced.

 

[prog rocker]

Just defeated Falkner using only Pidgey.

Level 15
No Item
Tackle, Sand-Attack, Gust, Quick Attack
Atk 23/Def 21/Sp. Atk 19/Sp. Def 19/Spd 26

I didn't think I would pull an Ash easily here, but I did it.

NOTE: I did not grind against wild Pokémon. I just defeated every single trainer in sight.

 

[prog rocker]

And I just beat Bugsy with Pidgeotto. Extremely easy.

Level 22
No Item
Tackle, Sand-Attack, Gust, Quick Attack
HP 62/Atk 39/Def 36/Sp. Atk 34/Sp. Def 34/Spd 43

Again, no grinding, only beating every trainer in sight.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Nice! I am surprised but pleasantly so the first gym was so easy, that was honestly what I was expecting would be the big sticking point. Planning on continuing to solo things with Pidgeotto, or were you going to snag a fighting type to help with Miltank (and eventually Jasmine and Price)? I think soloing should be possible, but might be tough, or at minimum incredibly annoying XD Have any trainers given you a hard time so far?

 

[prog rocker]

Nice! I am surprised but pleasantly so the first gym was so easy, that was honestly what I was expecting would be the big sticking point. Planning on continuing to solo things with Pidgeotto, or were you going to snag a fighting type to help with Miltank (and eventually Jasmine and Price)? I think soloing should be possible, but might be tough, or at minimum incredibly annoying XD Have any trainers given you a hard time so far?

I expect Jasmine to give me trouble, and possibly Clair. Lance and Red are a given. Will keep this up since, after all, the Pidgey line was going to be the next one in the extremely long challenge I am doing were I beat all games (remakes included) with all lines and (meaningful) variations.

 

[Charizard011]

It's a cutie but you'll never convince me that it was the best starter in terms of stats or moveset. It was awful when I used it in Heart Gold and I wish I had replaced it sooner.

 

[prog rocker]

Whitney down! This might have been the first time I curbstomp her instead of she crushing me. The six times I used Sand-Attack on her Miltank might have helped.

Level 30
No Item
Return, Sand-Attack, Gust, Quick Attack
HP 83/Atk 53/Def 50/Sp. Atk 46/Sp. Def 46/Spd 59

 

[prog rocker]

Morty just bit the dust.

Level 35
No Item
Return, Sand-Attack, Wing Attack, Quick Attack
HP 96/Atk 62/Def 58/Sp. Atk 55/Sp. Def 55/Spd 70

 

[charlycicero]

To be fair, I've just finished my second playthrough of Soul Silver and this time I chose a Totodile (the first I chose a Cyndaquil), so I have yet to use Chikorita in HG/SS. So far the other two starters really help out especially in the early game, and the Feraligatr with Ice Fang is very helpful with the Dragon users. I will eventually do a third playthrough with Chikorita.

I do remember that, back in the original Silver, I did pick Chikorita as my starter, and I remember beating the game even without a lot of experience in Pokemon (I remember having an Espeon and a Furret as part of that team too), so there you have it. I think it is very possible to beat the remakes with Chikorita as well, I have no doubt about that, and I will try that soon enough.

Also, I have never done a solo playthrough on any main game, I have always had a team (even in my first ever playthrough of Pokemon back with Blue version).

As for being the BEST starter, I don't really agree, but to each their own. As far as I remember, the Grass starters tend to under perform overall, due to basically the bunch of weaknesses of their type, but Grass is still one of my favorite Types, and it can be very useful in a balanced team.

I'd give the edge to Feraligatr for HG/SS specifically, but I will test it once I play with Chikorita/ Meganium.