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Controversial opinions

Maybe Cynthia could have pointed it out in a more gentle manner, but even that might have been too much of a stretch from how she had been reassuring Iris throughout the arc.

Brock and Misty (and other characters) called Ash out on not winning their gym badges the right way. Why should Iris get special treatment from her friends when she messes up as a trainer? Real friends call you out on your flaws so you can keep pushing to be better, and that made Ash and Cilan look like they were kissing her a$$. Ash should have been the main one calling Iris out since she keeps calling him a kid. The writers obviously missed Misty so much to the point that made Iris a failed replica of her.

I think Iris losing to Ash was much more cathartic since Ash was the one she kept acting like a hypocritical jerk to anyway. It also had her realize that she needed to step it up as a trainer and not take shortcuts. This is why I feel like her getting a Dragonite was the worst thing that happened to her.

My issues with this show is that I feel like the female characters barely got called out on their flaws (except Misty and Dawn). To me, I feel Iris should have been called out on her flaws like the other protagonists did, but she rarely was...that was bad writing for BW.

I do agree with you that Cynthia should have said something about it since she is a champion after all.

I don't really see why I was supposed to root for Iris over Georgia to be honest. While they were both immature kids, Georgia at least had some skills to back up her talk. Iris really didn't. Admittedly, I think rooting for Iris would be difficult for me due to how much I dislike her character, but even without factoring that, she never was able to properly defeat Georgia.

That’s like saying that you won’t root for Ash in the OS because of how much of a brash, arrogant trainer he was. He’s my most hated version of Ash. The only justification for his attitude was him being a rookie trainer. While Ash & Gary were both immature and unlikable to me, I’ll still root for Ash over Gary. This was simply because Ash was the lesser of two evils, not because Ash was more likable. Also while Ash wasn’t an angel, Gary was an annoying, smug, arrogant, insufferable genius asshole who kept on rubbing it in Ash’s face that he was so much better than him. Plus people were unnecessarily cruel to Ash as well.

Maybe this is why I see some fans preferring Gary (or Red) over Ash since they found the latter unlikable in the OS. It also helped that while Ash got 4 pity badges, Gary had 10 badges he rightly earned.

So I understand your viewpoint.

But overall, Iris still bothers me less than Georgia, even if that's not actually high praise whatsoever.

Georgia basically feels like she exists for nothing other than being annoying, while Iris is still annoying but at least exists in ways beyond that.

Yeah. That what I was trying to say.! I don’t think fans are obligated to like either character and I can see why they wouldn’t want to root for either. I just think Iris is the lesser of two evils when it comes to the two.

I wholeheartedly understand why people won’t root for Iris and don’t like her (because I didn’t like her either until the middle-end of the Unova arc when she got a slice of humble pie from Ash/Drayden), but some people act like all the other characters are a million times better and more mature than her.

I still wish Dragonite were at least a Salamence or Hydreigon, just because imo giving it such a 'species atypical' personality was a poor decision too.

Agreed. A Salamence is much cooler than a Dragonite, IMO. I love Dragonites, but I hate Iris’ Dragonite because of its brash attitude. I know it ended up obeying her eventually, but it just rubbed me the wrong way.
 
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Brock and Misty (and other characters) called Ash out on not winning their gym badges the right way. Why should Iris get special treatment from her friends when she messes up as a trainer? Real friends call you out on your flaws so you can keep pushing to be better, and that made Ash and Cilan look like they were kissing her a$$. Ash should have been the main one calling Iris out since she keeps calling him a kid. The writers obviously missed Misty so much to the point that made Iris a failed replica of her.

I think Iris losing to Ash was much more cathartic since Ash was the one she kept acting like a hypocritical jerk to anyway. It also had her realize that she needed to step it up as a trainer and not take shortcuts. This is why I feel like her getting a Dragonite was the worst thing that happened to her.

It isn't really special treatment or kissing up to Iris so much as it wouldn't have made sense for any of her friends to say that she had a cheap win. Ash had a different dynamic with Misty and Brock than he did with Iris, especially during the Kanto saga where he made a lot of mistakes. He was rarely bothered by Iris calling him a little kid, so I don't think he would have pointed it out to Iris because of that.

Chika234 said:
My issues with this show is that I feel like the female characters barely got called out on their flaws (except Misty and Dawn). To me, I feel Iris should have been called out on her flaws like the other protagonists did, but she rarely was...that was bad writing for BW.

I do agree with you that Cynthia should have said something about it since she is a champion after all.

That was a major problem with BW as a whole as opposed to just this arc. Iris was an immensely flawed character and that in itself obviously wasn't a problem. The problem was how rarely those flaws were addressed. Instead of having Iris overcome them, everything was handled to her on a silver plate with little to no effort involved on her part. She was just the extra special gifted Dragon trainer despite how none of her battles made her look that impressive. Out of the characters there, I could have seen Cynthia pointing out her cheap win in a more gentle manner than Georgia did, but even that might have been too much of a stretch.

Chika234 said:
That’s like saying that you won’t root for Ash in the OS because of how much of a brash, arrogant trainer he was. He’s my most hated version of Ash. The only justification for his attitude was him being a rookie trainer. While Ash & Gary were both immature and unlikable to me, I’ll still root for Ash over Gary. This was simply because Ash was the lesser of two evils, not because Ash was more likable. Also while Ash wasn’t an angel, Gary was an annoying, smug, arrogant, insufferable genius asshole who kept on rubbing it in Ash’s face that he was so much better than him. Plus people were unnecessarily cruel to Ash as well.

Maybe this is why I see some fans preferring Gary (or Red) over Ash since they found the latter unlikable in the OS. It also helped that while Ash got 4 pity badges, Gary had 10 badges he rightly earned.

So I understand your viewpoint.

Except that I don't find OS Ash anywhere near as insufferable or unlikable as I do with Iris. He could be brash, arrogant and immature, but I never really disliked him. Unlike with Iris, his flaws were addressed often, he wasn't handed everything so easily, even with the pity badges in mind, and he still came off as a likable lead in spite of his flaws. I could root for Ash over Gary not because he was the lesser of two evils, but because I liked him and wanted him to take smug Gary down a few pegs. I can see why you went for this comparison to understand my point of view on Iris and Georgia's rivalry, but I don't think it's a fitting one based on my feelings on the two characters.
 
I still wish Dragonite were at least a Salamence or Hydreigon, just because imo giving it such a 'species atypical' personality was a poor decision too.

I dunno, I thought that introducing a rogue version of Dragonite was actually refreshing since the species is generally good mannered. Having Iris catch a mad Salamence or Hydreigon would've been too predictable imo. I think that the writers just needed to show more of Iris and Dragonite bonding to make Dragonite's eventual respect for her seem realistic.
 
He was rarely bothered by Iris calling him a little kid, so I don't think he would have pointed it out to Iris because of that.

It confuses me when you said this because I’ve seen people complain about Ash’s lack of response to Iris’ teasing. In my opinion, Ash and Cilan calling her out on her hypocrisy would have done good for her character because at least Iris won’t always be portrayed as this jerk sue who can do no wrong. I felt that fans saw Ash and Misty dynamic as much more appealing than Ash’s dynamic with Iris simply because Misty had very understandable reasons to be angry with Ash (Ash was pretty rude to Misty as well, and he got her bike destroyed).
 
I know I’ll get shot for saying this, but Serena is my least favorite female lead for many reasons. Sadly, I think she’s the only one I have problems with (apart from Jessie, Misty’s Sisters, and Casey).

I feel like I’m also biased since I was never a fan of those Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters and I think she (along with Richie, Nando, and Tobias) fit the description since she has traits of them.
 
I didn't actually mind Ash losing to Tobias too much. Sure, the character just appearing out of nowhere and steamrolling the entire competition with zero backstory with Pokémon like that is really, really contrived, but as a battle, it was top-notch, and we got to see Ash Ketchum at his best, at least until that point. Defeating two Legendary/Mythical Pokémon in one battle is no mean feat, even if he did end up losing.
 
I feel like I’m also biased since I was never a fan of those Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters and I think she (along with Richie, Nando, and Tobias) fit the description since she has traits of them.
This is just stupid and ignorant. Serena in no way is a Mary Sue and she has several flaws of her own which she overcomes, do you even know what a Mary Sue even is for that matter?
 
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I didn't actually mind Ash losing to Tobias too much. Sure, the character just appearing out of nowhere and steamrolling the entire competition with zero backstory with Pokémon like that is really, really contrived, but as a battle, it was top-notch, and we got to see Ash Ketchum at his best, at least until that point. Defeating two Legendary/Mythical Pokémon in one battle is no mean feat, even if he did end up losing.

The irony is that Tobias only won by technicality. He had 4 Pokémon in reserve, but none of his Pokémon on the field were standing victoriously. If you weren't paying attention to the details (like it was 6 vs 6), you would assume Ash had won.
 
I dunno, I thought that introducing a rogue version of Dragonite was actually refreshing since the species is generally good mannered. Having Iris catch a mad Salamence or Hydreigon would've been too predictable imo. I think that the writers just needed to show more of Iris and Dragonite bonding to make Dragonite's eventual respect for her seem realistic.

Yeah, I understand why thematically, this one just boils down to personal preference. Like I said, I think unconventional personalities work for some Pokemon, but I just like Dragonite better as they usually are.

Plus, that second part about them needing to be shown bonding more negatively impacted my opinion too, since it ends up making it feel... I guess kinda 'cheap' that this Dragonite is so different. Like they subverted the personality only for the sake of being less predictable, and then didn't really explore and flesh out the concept as well as they could've.


I feel like I’m also biased since I was never a fan of those Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters and I think she (along with Richie, Nando, and Tobias) fit the description since she has traits of them.

I don't really feel as negatively about this as Panky, since this is a controversial opinion thread, but... Honestly, I think Mary Sue and all similar terms are ridiculously overused, and everyone would be better off simply stating what their actual problem with the character is without attaching some watered-down catchall that can mean like a hundred different things depending on the person using it. It's to the point that they've ironically become sort of useless to properly explain something, and the point doesn't even come across well until you've attached so much further context that they aren't necessary in the first place.

The only person in this list where I don't have to bend over backwards to understand why it's felt that they fit the 'criteria' (which, annoyingly, changes dramatically from person to person) is Tobias. And even then, you could argue that he doesn't fit either.
 
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It confuses me when you said this because I’ve seen people complain about Ash’s lack of response to Iris’ teasing. In my opinion, Ash and Cilan calling her out on her hypocrisy would have done good for her character because at least Iris won’t always be portrayed as this jerk sue who can do no wrong. I felt that fans saw Ash and Misty dynamic as much more appealing than Ash’s dynamic with Iris simply because Misty had very understandable reasons to be angry with Ash (Ash was pretty rude to Misty as well, and he got her bike destroyed).

It would have been good if it actually had an effect on Iris. Cilan pointed out a couple of times that Iris was being just as immature as Ash was, but that didn't amount to anything. They weren't interested in doing that with Iris unfortunately. She really had a good setup at the start of BW, but then she didn't really work to improve herself or her skills during the series. Misty had a lot more justified reasons to be upset with Ash and Ash reacting to her anger/bickering established more of their dynamic. By not having Ash react to being insulted as much, it just made Iris look even more annoying. Plus, she often got upset at Ash for not knowing stuff he wouldn't have known about the Unova region. Not to mention she was just as immature, if not more so, than Ash was.

I know I’ll get shot for saying this, but Serena is my least favorite female lead for many reasons. Sadly, I think she’s the only one I have problems with (apart from Jessie, Misty’s Sisters, and Casey).

I feel like I’m also biased since I was never a fan of those Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters and I think she (along with Richie, Nando, and Tobias) fit the description since she has traits of them.

I don't really see how Serena could be considered a Mary Sue. Showcases were designed for her in mind and I still don't think that they were nearly as challenging as the show kept trying to say that they were, but she still worked for her Princess Keys. They didn't just give her everything on a silver plate and she wasn't presented as such a strong trainer. She rarely battled and her skills were pretty average as a result.
 
This is just stupid and ignorant. Serena in no way is a Mary Sue and she has several flaws of her own which she overcomes, do you even know what a Mary Sue even is for that matter?

I think they probably meant that she treated like a Mary Sue by most fans and in a way they are right. I remember most people treating Serena like an infallible waifu character back when she was in the cast all because she was cute and had a crush on Ash. It wasn't until she left the cast that more people began to criticize her, but most people had been blissfully ignorant of just how flawed Serena was until she was finally out of the picture.
 
I didn't actually mind Ash losing to Tobias too much. Sure, the character just appearing out of nowhere and steamrolling the entire competition with zero backstory with Pokémon like that is really, really contrived, but as a battle, it was top-notch, and we got to see Ash Ketchum at his best, at least until that point. Defeating two Legendary/Mythical Pokémon in one battle is no mean feat, even if he did end up losing.
This. Say you're watching this for the first time. Going into the league you can probably assume that Ash won't win, because that's usually how it goes. Then Tobias is introduced and you hear about his Darkrai that single handedly defeated every Gym Leader and every challenger in the league. At this point you can safely assume that Ash will lose to Darkai, but that's okay because it's the Ash/Paul battle that you really care about. Then your expectations are subverted when Ash actually manages to defeat the "undefeatable" Darkrai, and even a Latios to boot. This is amazing because the viewer has already accepted that fact that Ash was going to lose to Darkrai since it was introduced.

You can tell how badly the writers wanted Ash to win this one, and that fact that a deus ex machina was required to PREVENT him from winning is proof that he was good enough. This stands in stark contrast to the Kalos League, where he was evenly matched with his final opponent, but lost fair and square.
 
You can tell how badly the writers wanted Ash to win this one, and that fact that a deus ex machina was required to PREVENT him from winning is proof that he was good enough. This stands in stark contrast to the Kalos League, where he was evenly matched with his final opponent, but lost fair and square.

Personally, I think they ran out of time and money to give a proper finale given that there were literally two episodes left after this one. I mean it's like, after the Paul Battle, how could you make Ash believable lose in a quick manner that doesn't warrant another two-parter episode?
 
Personally, I think they ran out of time and money to give a proper finale given that there were literally two episodes left after this one. I mean it's like, after the Paul Battle, how could you make Ash believable lose in a quick manner that doesn't warrant another two-parter episode?
Could be, but I think it works both ways. I take it as a stab at the executives and a nod to the fans. From the writer's point of view it's like, okay the boss is forcing us to make Ash lose, but we're going to go out our way to illustrate the fact that the person who beats him is basically cheating, thus invalidating Ash's loss. And it lets the fans know that Ash lost, but he pretty-much won, in spirit at least.
 
I think they probably meant that she treated like a Mary Sue by most fans and in a way they are right. I remember most people treating Serena like an infallible waifu character back when she was in the cast all because she was cute and had a crush on Ash. It wasn't until she left the cast that more people began to criticize her, but most people had been blissfully ignorant of just how flawed Serena was until she was finally out of the picture.

If I remember right her flaws were generally overlooked for the first year of the Kalos series, then the second year came and she finally got a long term goal although some people complained that Showcases were just beauty pageants and knock-off Contests, and finally the third year was when Serena began getting more backlash because of how little she did outside of Master Class. But I still think she's one of the least controversial Pokegirls. :coffee:
 
I dunno if I'd consider that to be a controversial opinion tbh; Mallow may not be the most popular Pokegirl around here, but I don't think I've ever seen her receive major backlash or much hate in general. She's just kinda under the radar.
I've seen quite a few people hate on her because she is "boring" and is "always happy all the time". I personally think this is stupid because she had episodes where she did go under extreme stress and sadness. she's one of my favorite pokegirls, even though i do prefer may and lillie
 
Could be, but I think it works both ways. I take it as a stab at the executives and a nod to the fans. From the writer's point of view it's like, okay the boss is forcing us to make Ash lose, but we're going to go out our way to illustrate the fact that the person who beats him is basically cheating, thus invalidating Ash's loss. And it lets the fans know that Ash lost, but he pretty-much won, in spirit at least.
The idea that the ludicrousness of Tobias was a sort of miniature writer's revolt has occurred to me as well. I doubt we'll ever know for sure until after the show is over, though, and even then maybe not.
*

This is a pretty minor "controversial opinion"; I recall a lot of fans on the main sites seemed to dislike the Pokéball factory episode in XY but I actually really liked it; I have a fondness for the old chase style cartoons like Tom and Jerry, and I usually like the Meowth/Pikachu double act episodes, so those two combined pretty well for me.
Plus Pikachu trying to capture Meowth was amazing and raised so many interesting/terrifying questions.
 
I didn't mind Ash and Hau's battle. Lousy calls from a referee happen in real life sports happen every now and then
and this was no different. If anything, Hala should've spoken up before Nanu had declared the winner, but other than that,
I thought the match was fine.
 
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This is a pretty minor "controversial opinion"; I recall a lot of fans on the main sites seemed to dislike the Pokéball factory episode in XY but I actually really liked it; I have a fondness for the old chase style cartoons like Tom and Jerry, and I usually like the Meowth/Pikachu double act episodes, so those two combined pretty well for me.
Plus Pikachu trying to capture Meowth was amazing and raised so many interesting/terrifying questions.

That episode was brilliant. I didn't realize it had haters.
 
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