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Controversial opinions

To take the discussion away from League stuff, I think Ash's Chimchar's evolutions were paced rather unevenly. At least in terms of Badges. Ash caught Chimchar in between his second and third Sinnoh Badges, but it took it all the way after Ash's seventh Badge to finally evolve. And while admittedly the gap between Ash's seventh and eighth Sinnoh Badges was the biggest Badge gap we've even seen for him, it still evolved again during the gap between those Badges.

So, to put it simply, while under Ash's ownership (because technically it debuted under Paul's ownership before Ash even had a single Badge), it took Chimchar five Badges' worth of episodes (arguably seven) to evolve even once, and then it evolved twice in between just two Gym Badges. I think that's bit unevenly paced. I know they probably saved the evolution for Ash and Paul's Full Battle, but still.

I think it was a combination of saving the evolution for Ash's and Paul's first full battle and not wanting to make some of the later Gyms potentially too easy. Two Sinnoh Gyms had Steel and Ice type Pokemon. While Monferno wouldn't have necessarily made them a walk in the park, it might have been harder to make those battles challenging if Ash had Monferno with its new Fighting type moves on top of being a Fire type.

I've been rewatching DP for the fun of it and I have to admit that the first DP dub opening isn't quite that bad. It isn't good by any means. It's still probably one of the weakest dub openings in the series, but after how lackluster most of the SM openings were, that song at least had a beat to it.
 
I believe all the starters' evolutions with the exception of Gekkouga were paced badly.

Going all the way back to Hitokage, it took him 32 episodes to evolve to Lizard and then freaking 3 episodes to Lizardon. While Hitokage's first evolution seemed well deserved (he had a good amount of wins under his belt), Lizard had no wins whatsoever, only one battle in which he lost (against Paras and then Parasect).

Then we have Kimori, which took 59 episodes to become a Juptile (a little too much in my opinion) and freaking 95 episodes to become Jukkain. In Haruka's case we have Achamo, 81 episodes to evolve to Wakashamo and 109 episodes to evolve to Barshamo.

Hokozaru and Naetle were no exception, both also should've evolved way before they did. I'm not so sure how long Nyabbi stayed in this stage since I wasn't watching SM, but I got to see it becoming a Gaogaen during the last couple of episodes so I'm assuming my point stands.
 
I believe all the starters' evolutions with the exception of Gekkouga were paced badly.

Going all the way back to Hitokage, it took him 32 episodes to evolve to Lizard and then freaking 3 episodes to Lizardon. While Hitokage's first evolution seemed well deserved (he had a good amount of wins under his belt), Lizard had no wins whatsoever, only one battle in which he lost (against Paras and then Parasect).

Then we have Kimori, which took 59 episodes to become a Juptile (a little too much in my opinion) and freaking 95 episodes to become Jukkain. In Haruka's case we have Achamo, 81 episodes to evolve to Wakashamo and 109 episodes to evolve to Barshamo.

Hokozaru and Naetle were no exception, both also should've evolved way before they did. I'm not so sure how long Nyabbi stayed in this stage since I wasn't watching SM, but I got to see it becoming a Gaogaen during the last couple of episodes so I'm assuming my point stands.

Here's a question then: How would you pace out the evolutions of Ash's Pokemon (and his companions)?
 
Here's a question then: How would you pace out the evolutions of Ash's Pokemon (and his companions)?
More or less what they did to Gekkouga and its previous forms. Juptile could've evolved during 7th badge to 8th badge, so Satoshi would've had Jukkain by the 8th gym. Hikozaru could've evolved around the 4th gym, so does Naetle. It's a little hard to say about Achamo since Haruka barely used it before evolving, but Wakashamo could've evolved earlier too.

And take more episodes for Lizard to become a Lizardon, by the 8th badge maybe.
 
More or less what they did to Gekkouga and its previous forms. Juptile could've evolved during 7th badge to 8th badge, so Satoshi would've had Jukkain by the 8th gym. Hikozaru could've evolved around the 4th gym, so does Naetle. It's a little hard to say about Achamo since Haruka barely used it before evolving, but Wakashamo could've evolved earlier too.

And take more episodes for Lizard to become a Lizardon, by the 8th badge maybe.
Charmeleon should grow more disobedient as time passes.
 
More or less what they did to Gekkouga and its previous forms. Juptile could've evolved during 7th badge to 8th badge, so Satoshi would've had Jukkain by the 8th gym. Hikozaru could've evolved around the 4th gym, so does Naetle. It's a little hard to say about Achamo since Haruka barely used it before evolving, but Wakashamo could've evolved earlier too.

And take more episodes for Lizard to become a Lizardon, by the 8th badge maybe.
What about from Treecko to Grovyle?
 
My counter would be: why should we care about the Team Flare arc?

Lol this just sounds like you have nothing to say to my observation of how the narrative was affected by the Team Flare arc.

When a series wants to run a long-term narrative everything that happens in the show counts. Pokémon tries to be somewhat self contained since DP ended, but still wants the benefits of a long-term narrative; old characters appearing to excite fans, they clearly portrayed the Alola win as a huge event out of universe and even shook up the show entirely after it. So if they want the advantages of a long narrative they also need to accept the downsides, which means the Kalos League and Team Flare "count" for how they affect what comes before and after, and what narrative choices were made regarding them.

Kalos was probably the most self contained series. Aside from the link from BW to XY, there was next to no past references. I don't really see how your point of how they want the benefits of a long-term narrative holds in that respect. If anything, I would say that there was an overt attempt to disregard the franchise's history here and the fans' expectations for continuity. Faulting XY for this sounds almost preposterous to me because more than ever, they were clearly writing their own story during that series.

Aside from all that @PkmnTrainerV has said, I don't see how Team Flare's role to XYZ can even be considered unimportant to the story. The whole XYZ season was named after Squishy which has a central role to the story.
 
Okay.
I just posted I was done talking about Kalos but I guess I should respond to a post directed at me.
Edit: Not meant to be accusatory since I responded to you earlier, I just want to explain why I'm going back on my earlier post.

Lol this just sounds like you have nothing to say to my observation of how the narrative was affected by the Team Flare arc.
This whole discussion is around the suggestion that Alain winning the league was the right narrative decision.
My response is that it wasn't, because Team Flare is less important than the League narrative that's been running for two decades and always gets the most screen time.

Kalos was probably the most self contained series. Aside from the link from BW to XY, there was next to no past references.
XY continuing directly from BW is a pretty big past reference.

I don't really see how your point of how they want the benefits of a long-term narrative holds in that respect.
I'm talking about Sun and Moon in that regard; they used XY footage to promote the Alola League, so they're clearly trying to portray XY as part of the twenty year hype build up to winning the Alola league. At that point "writing their own story" doesn't apply, especially after XY is directly referenced in Journeys.

If they want to use XY as part of the hype for SuMo they have to accept the damage it caused to the conclusion of Ash's league arc. Sure, you could say it's SuMo's fault for delivering what it did, but at the end of the day the show is being done by the same company with quite a few of the same writers. What happens before effects what happens later.
If a series doesn't want that they need to reboot like Transformers or the numerous comic book inspired shows.

If anything, I would say that there was an overt attempt to disregard the franchise's history here and the fans' expectations for continuity. Faulting XY for this sounds almost preposterous to me because more than ever, they were clearly writing their own story during that series.
Why is it preposterous to fault a sequel for trying to ignore the past works when it uses the same protagonist and is led directly into by the previous entry?

And for trying to write their own story they sure did do absolutely everything they could to end up at the status quo.

Edit: More I think the more I believe I should have just answered when FelipePR asked why it caused so much backlash; this is the controversial opinions thread after all. Deleting my other posts would make this whole discussion a mess though, so I'll just leave it all here.
 
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I'm talking about Sun and Moon in that regard; they used XY footage to promote the Alola League, so they're clearly trying to portray XY as part of the twenty year hype build up to winning the Alola league. At that point "writing their own story" doesn't apply, especially after XY is directly referenced in Journeys.

We are talking about XY(Z) so I don't think its right to bring up instances from SM and Journeys to determine if Alain winning the league was the right narrative decision in XY(Z). I don't have evidence on this but decisions made for SM and Journeys probably weren't even thought of when XY(Z) was being written. Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have an almost ten year trajectory for the story planned, how footage from XY(Z) is repurposed in later seasons shouldn't affect our reading of the XY(Z) season since every season after BW has been essentially self-contained and can be read as its own alternate universe. What happens before affects what happens later but when the past is cherry picked (i.e. when Ash meets pokemon he had travelled with and yet barely acknowledges them), the past can only be understood as it is revisited within the narrative and not as it is accrued by the audiences' collective memory. Given that XY(Z) had no direct reference to past seasons aside from Alexa being introduced in BW (which in itself, made next to no difference to the story), it is inappropriate to place such weight on narrative accrual in evaluating XY(Z).
 
We are talking about XY(Z) so I don't think its right to bring up instances from SM and Journeys to determine if Alain winning the league was the right narrative decision in XY(Z). I don't have evidence on this but decisions made for SM and Journeys probably weren't even thought of when XY(Z) was being written. Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have an almost ten year trajectory for the story planned, how footage from XY(Z) is repurposed in later seasons shouldn't affect our reading of the XY(Z) season since every season after BW has been essentially self-contained and can be read as its own alternate universe. What happens before affects what happens later but when the past is cherry picked (i.e. when Ash meets pokemon he had travelled with and yet barely acknowledges them), the past can only be understood as it is revisited within the narrative and not as it is accrued by the audiences' collective memory. Given that XY(Z) had no direct reference to past seasons aside from Alexa being introduced in BW (which in itself, made next to no difference to the story), it is inappropriate to place such weight on narrative accrual in evaluating XY(Z).
I think this is a perfectly fair way to view it even if it's not my own.
Re; in regards to planning I am fairly sure they don't go more than one series ahead and even then only in fairly broad strokes thanks to having to get the series finished so it can launch along side the mainline games they can't really have things plotted too tightly at once.
 
Lol this just sounds like you have nothing to say to my observation of how the narrative was affected by the Team Flare arc.



Kalos was probably the most self contained series. Aside from the link from BW to XY, there was next to no past references. I don't really see how your point of how they want the benefits of a long-term narrative holds in that respect. If anything, I would say that there was an overt attempt to disregard the franchise's history here and the fans' expectations for continuity. Faulting XY for this sounds almost preposterous to me because more than ever, they were clearly writing their own story during that series.

Aside from all that @PkmnTrainerV has said, I don't see how Team Flare's role to XYZ can even be considered unimportant to the story. The whole XYZ season was named after Squishy which has a central role to the story.

Kalos was the first to break the tradition of the previous series female companion guest starring in an arc. Cilan is in one of the XY specials, but doesn’t encounter Ash nor learn some of the people he meets also travelled with Ash. In the Sun and Moon series it’s Misty and Brock who have the guest appearance arc rather than following up Serena, Clement and Bonnie (which is probably a good thing given the tonal shift between XY and SM).
 
Axew is the worst walking pokemon this saga’s had.

Let me draw some paralels:

-Togepi was useless, but at least it didn’t take up too much screentime with its antics (as far as I remember, at least);

-Piplup was obnoxious and often hogged screentime, but he was actually competent in battle, showed development and actively contributed to Dawn’s goal;

-Chespin was annoying and didn’t do much, but didn’t take up quite as much screentime and occasionally showed signs of maturity (I might be pulling strings here);

-none of the Alola mascots stood out too much, but they each had their sets of traits that made their interactions entertaining. I didn’t find any of them particularly bad either.

Axew, though? For most of BW, he was completely useless and had barely any contribution to Iris’ dragon training goal. Despite his nice training sessions with Scraggy, every single bigger battle he had either involved him getting trounced or winning through asspull moves that were later forgotten about. He had a stablished goal of evolving since early on, but was never developed beyond an obnoxious crybaby that sucked up screentime whenever it got lost or in trouble (also, who the hell had the idea of giving him filler focus during the league??)

And that’s not talking about how annoying and old his personality was after a short period, and how his presence next to Excadrill and Dragonite constantly reminded us that Iris didn’t quite earn her “powerful trainer” status so much as was handed it.

I can’t even think of the Axew species as a whole without hearing his annoying voice in my head either, so bonus for that.
 
Misty's whole gimmick, when she was introduced, was that she wanted to give herself a distinction from her three spotlight-stealing older sisters. But once she got Togepi, a Pokémon never before seen at that time, something truly unique only to her, she achieved that goal and didn't need to assert herself anymore. This caused her to pretty much have no goal for the next 200+ episodes she spent traveling with Ash. She was there simply just because.

(Thanks once again to Suede for pointing this out.)
 
Misty's whole gimmick, when she was introduced, was that she wanted to give herself a distinction from her three spotlight-stealing older sisters. But once she got Togepi, a Pokémon never before seen at that time, something truly unique only to her, she achieved that goal and didn't need to assert herself anymore. This caused her to pretty much have no goal for the next 200+ episodes she spent traveling with Ash. She was there simply just because.

(Thanks once again to Suede for pointing this out.)
Well, she had the whole Water Pokémon Master thing (can't remember the exact term), but I guess that doesn't count since it's only slightly less vague than Ash's goal.
 
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