• A new LGBTQ+ forum is now being trialed and there have been changes made to the Support and Advice forum. To read more about these updates, click here.
  • Hey Trainers! Be sure to check out Corsola Beach, our newest section on the forums, in partnership with our friends at Corsola Cove! At the Beach, you can discuss the competitive side of the games, post your favorite Pokemon memes, and connect with other Pokemon creators!
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

Controversial opinions

My problem with Cinderace is that it's pretty much reached a Dead End Character Development wise. And we're not even halfway through the series yet.

It's conflicted feelings with Gou have been long resolved.

It's reached it's final stage and it's very strong without even having much Training Experience.

There's nowhere left to go with it development wise

Well there's still the G-Max they can show off but that's about it
I think Cinderace's development has been rushed and poorly done in general honestly. First off, Scorbunny to Raboot didn't really feel deserved in general. Goh used Scorbunny in one battle, then decided he didn't like battling. Scorbunny suddenly wanted to get stronger to battle Darmanitan, but Goh was like nah you don't need to. So then Scorbunny learns Ember and evolves, though suddenly Raboot is very aloof and cold to Goh? My thought was it was Goh's attitude towards training and learning new moves that did that, but no. On top of an evolution that didn't truly feel earned, we had this new problem. Raboot seems to be very distant and cold, though the question was why?

We see Raboot suddenly pay more attention to one of Ash's battles and Raboot looked interested. I think back to Goh not wanting to teach new moves and I thought, maybe Raboot has some issues with Goh. Maybe Raboot wants to battle more? Maybe it's like how Charmeleon got cocky and lost respect for Ash when he was telling him to go easy and lose to a Paras. Nope...Raboot just wanted to dance, not battle. This came completely out of left field, so it makes you go what was the point? Goh even thought it was his fault, and based on how he was in JN17, you'd think that had something to do with it. So Raboot gets to dance and suddenly Raboot is fine with Goh again? What?

So time goes on and suddenly Raboot is more competent in battles, and only 28 episodes later, Raboot has fully evolved into Cinderace? Talk about a truly rushed evolution. Its hardly even battled much or gone through development and training and its already fully evolved? Though its probably not as bad as Lana with her Primarina.
 
I can't help but wonder if the writers had actually planned on having Popplio evolving from the start considering how extremely late and rushed it came.

If anything it feels like it only happened because the Japan Fandom adored Primarina and Lana needed something to make her more eligible for the Alola League

Tho Granted it did have a precedent with Popplio taking a liking to Brionne pretty early on so idk
 
It's interesting to me cuz there's a whole montage in that ep impling that the reason why Raboot is so dissatisfied with Goh is cuz Goh doesn't likes battling, at least not as much as Ash (which is completely fine by me. It's actually rather refreshing to see a male character here not being that interesting in battling: cuz that's usually reserved to the girls.). Raboot wanted to get stronger, and Goh simply doesn't cares about it: He only wants more and more Pokemon for his Pokedéx, only fighting in pretty much 2 ocassions: when the TRio were there or to catch a stronger mon.

So you would think they would make so that Goh would understand that when you capture a Pokemon, it's not just a dex entry: you need to care for it and attend it's needs and wishes. It's a living and breathing being with levels of sapience comparable to humans. That he would try to conciliate their mutual goals and desires. And I really thought Goh would have this realization when Raboot ran away. Cuz keep in mind that he didn't had any ''BIG'' challenge in his journey yet.

But then when he and Ash go to see where Raboot went, he's just... dancing?? I mean, weird. And after that, Goh decides to let him go instead of wanting to change himself to accomodate Raboot and consequently the rest of his rooster better??? And Raboot just comes back and it's apparent ''passion for dancing'' is never brought up again?? And to finish it off, the whole situation just solves itself out and Goh pretty much doesn't evolves in this aspect at all????? Cuz he doesn't even trains Raboot (and neither Sooble and the rest of his mons after) and it evolves into Cinderace (?). I mean,,, WHAT???? Then this whole ep was a waste of time????
 
Last edited:
I think people misunderstood JN022. It wasn't about "OMG Raboot wants to dance with somebody" but an analogy about parents learning to understand their child during their teenage years. Raboot changed and became less playful and more serious, and Goh couldn't grasp why that happened, but eventually he supported his new interests and they reached an understanding.

Raboot going to dance at night is an allegory about teenagers...going to dance at night clubs, as simple as that. I don't agree with the notion that "In that episode they said Raboot's goal was dancing and then forgot about it" because the episode didn't really presented it as more than a hobby and a new thing it was trying out.
 
I think people misunderstood JN022. It wasn't about "OMG Raboot wants to dance with somebody" but an analogy about parents learning to understand their child during their teenage years. Raboot changed and became less playful and more serious, and Goh couldn't grasp why that happened, but eventually he supported his new interests and they reached an understanding.

Raboot going to dance at night is an allegory about teenagers...going to dance at night clubs, as simple as that. I don't agree with the notion that "In that episode they said Raboot's goal was dancing and then forgot about it" because the episode didn't really presented it as more than a hobby and a new thing it was trying out.
But the big problem was cuz the entire ep showed that it was disastified with Goh due to him not wanting to battle with it. Then out of the blue, it dances a little bit, then comes back like nothing happenned and now everything is okay? What was the lesson here then? Cuz it seems like neither Goh or Raboot really learned anything here. The situation pretty much solved itself out without Goh having to do anything, cuz even after he decided to let Raboot go, it just showed up 2 minutes later.

Even the ''new hobbie'' part is very weak imo cuz it was NEVER brought up again. It was literally an one time thing.
 
I think people misunderstood JN022. It wasn't about "OMG Raboot wants to dance with somebody" but an analogy about parents learning to understand their child during their teenage years. Raboot changed and became less playful and more serious, and Goh couldn't grasp why that happened, but eventually he supported his new interests and they reached an understanding.

Raboot going to dance at night is an allegory about teenagers...going to dance at night clubs, as simple as that. I don't agree with the notion that "In that episode they said Raboot's goal was dancing and then forgot about it" because the episode didn't really presented it as more than a hobby and a new thing it was trying out.
Hadn't quite thought about it like that. Well done in making me appreciate an episode that I had completely dismissed before. :bulbaWave:

I have other issues with Raboot's development, but as a stand-alone concept and episode, that works.
 
Last edited:
I think people misunderstood JN022. It wasn't about "OMG Raboot wants to dance with somebody" but an analogy about parents learning to understand their child during their teenage years. Raboot changed and became less playful and more serious, and Goh couldn't grasp why that happened, but eventually he supported his new interests and they reached an understanding.

Raboot going to dance at night is an allegory about teenagers...going to dance at night clubs, as simple as that. I don't agree with the notion that "In that episode they said Raboot's goal was dancing and then forgot about it" because the episode didn't really presented it as more than a hobby and a new thing it was trying out.

I'm kind of surprised in a way that people thought that Raboot's new goal was dancing based on that episode. I thought that the main point of the dancing was to show that even though Raboot had changed after evolving, it still had a bit of Scorbunny's personality in that it wanted to do what it could to help some Pokemon in need. Goh thought that Raboot had changed completely, but there was still some of his old Scorbunny partner in there.

But the big problem was cuz the entire ep showed that it was disastified with Goh due to him not wanting to battle with it. Then out of the blue, it dances a little bit, then comes back like nothing happenned and now everything is okay? What was the lesson here then? Cuz it seems like neither Goh or Raboot really learned anything here. The situation pretty much solved itself out without Goh having to do anything, cuz even after he decided to let Raboot go, it just showed up 2 minutes later.

Even the ''new hobbie'' part is very weak imo cuz it was NEVER brought up again. It was literally an one time thing.

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Goh didn't have to do anything. Showing up to support Raboot during the dance was still a key moment since it made Raboot want to reconnect with Goh. I don't think Raboot would have stayed behind without it, but I do think it would have taken longer for Raboot to reach out to Goh without it. Admittedly, it still might not be much and I do think connecting Raboot's issues back to Goh losing his temper with it when it was trying to learn Ember would have made it more effective, but I do think that Goh showing up to support Raboot counts for something in this situation.
 
I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Goh didn't have to do anything. Showing up to support Raboot during the dance was still a key moment since it made Raboot want to reconnect with Goh. I don't think Raboot would have stayed behind without it, but I do think it would have taken longer for Raboot to reach out to Goh without it. Admittedly, it still might not be much and I do think connecting Raboot's issues back to Goh losing his temper with it when it was trying to learn Ember would have made it more effective, but I do think that Goh showing up to support Raboot counts for something in this situation.
I understand your point. Bu I still think they shoud've made more out of that premise and shoud've linked it back to Goh not being that interested in what Raboot wanted.
 
I don't think Raboot ever showed more desire to fight than Goh's interest in Ash's battles and admiration for him. If Raboot really wanted to fight it would have been picking fights like the freshly hatched Riolu. Raboot also points out pokemon for Goh to catch and actually leads him to them even before the make up in 22.

Other controversial opinion: I don't think Goh was being terrible to Scorbunny in the ember episode. He humors Scorbunny and just smiles when he runs off even when Scorbunny showed zero aptitude for ember. Ash's dig deeper advice wasn't working and the only time Scorbunny produces a slightly stronger ember was after a running start (something it didn't pick up on). Goh only snaps after Scorbunny disobeys him and is destroyed by team rocket. When Goh clued in to the run up, he was completely on board with helping Scorbunny learn the move. He didn't help with the breath ember because all evidence pointed to it being impossible, but as soon as a possible alternative was given he was on board.

It was a very rational thought process and I see nothing wrong with it, but maybe it is too defeatist for an emotion driven show like pokemon.

If Goh failed somewhere it was in conveying his feeling well and suffering from the 'Goodbye Pikachu" attention deficiency. Scorbunny was also being overly stubborn.
 
I think it's possible the writers had vague ideas of a "Scorbunny prefers battles" plot, hence the hints we saw in many episodes, but eventually gave up when they realized that it only had two possible outcomes:
  • Goh using battles to catch Pokemon 90% of the time, which would ruin their "Ash and Goh are so different!" theme and would probably eat valuable screentime of every episode (It's what the fandom wants, but clearly not what the writers want).
  • Raboot being given away to Ash or another trainer.
Other controversial opinion: I don't think Goh was being terrible to Scorbunny in the ember episode. He humors Scorbunny and just smiles when he runs off even when Scorbunny showed zero aptitude for ember. Ash's dig deeper advice wasn't working and the only time Scorbunny produces a slightly stronger ember was after a running start (something it didn't pick up on). Goh only snaps after Scorbunny disobeys him and is destroyed by team rocket. When Goh clued in to the run up, he was completely on board with helping Scorbunny learn the move. He didn't help with the breath ember because all evidence pointed to it being impossible, but as soon as a possible alternative was given he was on board.

It was a very rational thought process and I see nothing wrong with it, but maybe it is too defeatist for an emotion driven show like pokemon.

If Goh failed somewhere it was in conveying his feeling well and suffering from the 'Goodbye Pikachu" attention deficiency. Scorbunny was also being overly stubborn.

I didn't like that episode at all, and it was partly because Goh had a point and Scorbunny was pushing itself too hard for what was essentially a tease from a bully, but he changed his mind magically. If the episode had had a 2 minute conversation with Ash convincing Goh that Scorbunny's feelings mattered too it'd had improved significantly.
 
I don't think Raboot ever showed more desire to fight than Goh's interest in Ash's battles and admiration for him. If Raboot really wanted to fight it would have been picking fights like the freshly hatched Riolu. Raboot also points out pokemon for Goh to catch and actually leads him to them even before the make up in 22.

Other controversial opinion: I don't think Goh was being terrible to Scorbunny in the ember episode. He humors Scorbunny and just smiles when he runs off even when Scorbunny showed zero aptitude for ember. Ash's dig deeper advice wasn't working and the only time Scorbunny produces a slightly stronger ember was after a running start (something it didn't pick up on). Goh only snaps after Scorbunny disobeys him and is destroyed by team rocket. When Goh clued in to the run up, he was completely on board with helping Scorbunny learn the move. He didn't help with the breath ember because all evidence pointed to it being impossible, but as soon as a possible alternative was given he was on board.

It was a very rational thought process and I see nothing wrong with it, but maybe it is too defeatist for an emotion driven show like pokemon.

If Goh failed somewhere it was in conveying his feeling well and suffering from the 'Goodbye Pikachu" attention deficiency. Scorbunny was also being overly stubborn.

I didn't think that Goh was being terrible to Scorbunny either. While he was quick to give up on Ember, he wasn't being rude or mean about it initially. Goh thought that Scorbunny was great at using Double Kick and Quick Attack already, so there wasn't a need to work on a move that he believed it couldn't learn. It was more like "Hey, you can't learn Ember, but that's okay because you already have two great moves to use" instead of something more cruel. Even when he got mad at Scorbunny later, Ash immediately pointed out that he was too harsh, Goh wanted to apologize afterwards, he was able to find a solution that made use of Scorbunny's strengths to learn Ember in its own way, as well as probably hinting at Cinderace's Pyro Ball move, and being able to connect with each other through battle led to its evolution. While it was still too soon for Scorbunny to evolve and I still would have liked for Goh to give Raboot a proper apology after it evolved, I think that the general setup still worked.

I think it's possible the writers had vague ideas of a "Scorbunny prefers battles" plot, hence the hints we saw in many episodes, but eventually gave up when they realized that it only had two possible outcomes:
  • Goh using battles to catch Pokemon 90% of the time, which would ruin their "Ash and Goh are so different!" theme and would probably eat valuable screentime of every episode (It's what the fandom wants, but clearly not what the writers want).
  • Raboot being given away to Ash or another trainer.

Out of the two outcomes, I think only the first one would have been plausible. Giving Raboot to Ash would have been an interesting twist and a way to keep it in the main cast, but I think that would have been a really tough sell given that Scorbunny was so desperate on finding Goh at the start of the series. Even with it becoming more interested in battling, I'm not sure if they could have made the decision to give Raboot to Ash or another trainer feel believable so relatively early in the series. Not to mention they don't usually separate trainers from their first Pokemon partners like that. Having Goh battle more often would probably help with a lot of the backlash on top of giving Raboot more experience to led up to its final evolution, but I'm not surprised that they didn't go that route for a couple of reasons. They really want Ash and Goh to represent the battling and catching aspects of the franchise respectively. Even though Goh does battle, they still probably want him to be seen as the catcher rather than another battler like Ash.
 
I love the idea of 2-part episodes, because even when one of the halves is completely mid (See Marshtomp bit) it's completely worth it for the glorious shitpost that would never ever ever make it into a full fledged episode otherwise.
 
Back
Top Bottom