Controversial opinions

[TheGoldenDuck]

Here's one: I don't care who gets Grookey because the Pokémon Evolution/Capture/Release Thread ruined my need to care. In fact I don't think I care anymore who catches what (except maybe the Pontya if Koharu meets it again, but whatever). Lets be real for a second, regardless of who gets what pokemon there will probably be another World War Goh on the forums for the millionth time, and then another, and then another, and then another until this series ends.

 

[Hidden Mew]

While I do understand and agree with a good portion of the common complaints about Journeys, I also definitely agree that the hate can be excessive. The Goh backlash in particular feels mind boggling to me. Not liking Goh or how his goal is understandable, but claiming that he is a villain in the making or that he is on the same level as Pokemon Hunters just does not make any sense to me. Goh isn't my favorite companion, but he's far from the worst and I do genuinely like him, so seeing fans continue to treat him as a villain is upsetting to say the least.

Even though I don't take part in the episode threads that often, I can understand how upsetting it is to see the same complaints or hate towards the series week after week. It is especially difficult if you enjoy Journeys, want to talk about how much you enjoyed an episode and don't want to deal with the same arguments over and over again. I've dealt with that for other series, so it is not a pleasant feeling.

 

[A Wild Luxray]

I agree that its ridiculous to sit here and compare Goh to a soulless monster who doesn't care about Pokemon. He certainly does care for the Pokemon he catches when the writers actually DO show him with a Pokemon that's not Cinderace or Sobble. They aren't stuck in Pokeballs 24/7. They're living comfortably in a giant park that fits their needs. But I do think sometimes people here try to devalue or dismiss legitimate criticism about Journeys or Goh in general.

 

[Insanish Danish]

Add me to the list of people who think that the hate Goh gets is wholly unjustified. I do not care for Journeys in the slightest but honestly, Goh is a very, very small reason as to why. I personally don't find his goal interesting (in fact, I find it to be a bit of a snoozefest), but I think Goh, as a character, is perfectly likeable and the level of hatred he gets is insane. Of course people are allowed to dislike him, no character is ever universally liked by everyone, but I think the level of hate he gets is largely undeserved, especially when there are so many other reasons to think Journeys is a bad series.

 

[Alola]

I actually quite like Go and enjoy when he's on screen; I really liked the Suicune episode as a recent example, but I already conveyed my thoughts in that respective thread.

He's the first of Ash's male companions that feels like a person than a glorified human encyclopedia or the team's static, resident cook; also, his outfit is practical and akin to a player character's unlike Cilan and Clemont (that was one of my biggest annoyances for those characters). I appreciate how he Is more in touch with his feelings as a male character, as well as some of his softer facial features, and as a lead no less; I have actually been able to relate to several of his aspects, such as difficulties in making friends and awkward social encounters (I was howling during the Alola visit, because it was so darn relatable). He's quirky, moody, insightful, tactical, compassionate, knowledgeable, and is constantly growing as a person and Trainer. And can we talk about his growth for a bit? Earlier, he was rightfully condemned for his attitude and actions towards Scorbunny and its Ember (yet was able to make amends). When something similar rolled around with Sobble, did he retread those steps? Nope - he instead worked with his Pokémon to acknowledge its desire and find a battle style that accentuates its strengths, leading to a new move learned as well. It is that progress and growth from when he started to where he is now that makes me fond of him (and again, we rarely get this with male characters that are not Ash). It also helps that his Starter is one of my favorite Starters/Starter-lines as well (tied with Rowlett); I adore seeing Cinderace animated on screen, especially when the quality is quite good. There are other things I like, but I'll digress for now.

As for his goal, it still isn't something I condone. Or rather, I do not appreciate how the writers have portrayed it, all of the instant captures with ease; I think that is my biggest gripe, with the way they treat most of Go's captures being such a departure from practically everything prior to Journeys. But it is what it is and it is not something I am going to join in an already thunderous chorus about, unless it is something quite egregious in my own opinion. Some of the comments I read regarding this, or him in general, are too much or black and white; either you hate him or are stupidly labeled a "fanboy." Even more upsetting than shifting through them is the fact that there are users that feel they cannot post in the section without being harassed for their opinion.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Anyways, I don't about you but Butch's eng dub voice is AWFUL imo. Not to throw shade to the voice actor, but who thought that giving him that ''old man who smoked cigarettes for 50 years'' voice was a good idea? I'm rewatching Sinnoh in the eng dub this time, and how did you guys even put up with that?

It didn't matter if it was Eric Stuart or James Carter Cathcart voicing him, I never thought Butch sounded right at all.

It was such a shock to me hearing Kosanji’s voice for the very first time, because he actually sounds kinda... sexy? Agree that B*tch is awful.

Not sure how controversial of an opinion that is, but YES. Butch's dub voice in both versions is AWFUL (although I think the second voice somehow managed to be even worse than the first, if that's possible). It is tragic because Butch and Cassidy have always been two of my favorite characters and most of their episodes are some of my favorites, but it's a challenge to watch them dubbed. His Japanese voice is fantastic, though.

Kosaburou's English voice is so awfully cartoonish it could very well fit in any slapstick comedy show there is.

You can say they Botch (Ed) its voice.

Actually, Eric Stuart did that voice because, in test recordings, his initial attempts at doing a voice for Butch sounded too much like James, so he went with a complete opposite kind of voice compared to James. Apparently, it didn't even hurt his throat to speak like that, either.

 

[ii kanji]

Actually, Eric Stuart did that voice because, in test recordings, his initial attempts at doing a voice for Butch sounded too much like James, so he went with a complete opposite kind of voice compared to James. Apparently, it didn't even hurt his throat to speak like that, either.

Why didn't they just... use another actor?

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Why didn't they just... use another actor?

That I don't know. Maybe they thought Eric was the best man for the role, who knows?

 

[GalacticRonpa]

Why didn't they just... use another actor?

My question exactly xD I've never got this thing about the English dub of using the same guy to voice countless characters. It's fine if they're skilled enough to change their voice and put on a good interpretation, but it's so not the case with Kosaburou here xD

Why not hire another VA then? Or use someone else?

 

[prog rocker]

Why not hire another VA then? Or use someone else?

Money maybe? I know that the LA dub used different artists for both James and Buck so I don't know what they were doing there.

 

[Enzo]

But I do think sometimes people here try to devalue or dismiss legitimate criticism about Journeys or Goh in general.

This. This may even be off-topic in a sense but I gotta say it. And I might even get in trouble for this, but yeah:

Listen, I also don't agree with being too harsh with this character and some people do take it too far with their nonsense. I even think sometimes that I take things a bit too far, and I do regret it and I'm policing myself to not do that anymore. But I also get the lingering sensation that quite a lot of people really like to take advantage of the more ''out of control'' (for lack of a better expression) folks to use them do completely dismiss and devalue any criticisms about Journeys. I'm not targeting anyone here, if any of you may be thinking about this now. And of course it's okay to like the series and even feel defensive about it.

But at the same time, I often go through the AniPoke tag on Instagram, Twitter, other Pokémon Forums, and I do see a lot of people with the same complains I see here. And not just specific accounts: you just need to click in the comments, subtweets and other posts of completely unrelated people in completely different spaces and they have their critiques too. Even in other languages. So it's not a ''herd effect'' in this website.

I think that what I'm trying to say here, is that people are allowed to praise, love, critic and even just complain about something. No one's opinions are better or worse than others, and they don't (and can't!) devalue each other. But when I say ''criticism'' I say ''valid, coherent, grounded, lucid criticism''. Not comparing Goh to the likes of a Pokémon hunter like the ones in the Suicune ep or even Hunter J.

 

[GalacticRonpa]

Money maybe? I know that the LA dub used different artists for both James and Buck so I don't know what they were doing there.

So does the Japanese version!

I'm unaware how 4kids would choose who'd voice who in the 90s, but I'm certain they had someone else (preferrably one who didn't sound like a slapstick cartoon character) that would be better for this role.

Because, let's face it, Butch sounds nothing alike with Kosaburou (if that wasn't obvious already).

 

[LovelyChika123]

As much as I disliked Gary in the Kanto arc for being such a big fat smug jerk towards Ash, I do believe that he should have moved forward in the Indigo League.

Realistically, Ash should have been eliminated in the first round instead of Gary. This is because Gary worked hard to earn his badges whereas Ash got 4 badges out of pity (he fairly won against LT Surge, Koga, Blaine & Team Rocket tho).

It would have been a good moral for kids to work hard instead of relying on luck to beat your enemies. This would have made me root for Ash even more than I did in that arc (at least Diamond & Pearl did this correctly when Ash lost to Paul badly in their Lake Acuity battle).

 

[Hidden Mew]

As much as I disliked Gary in the Kanto arc for being such a big fat smug jerk towards Ash, I do believe that he should have moved forward in the Indigo League.

Realistically, Ash should have been eliminated in the first round instead of Gary. This is because Gary worked hard to earn his badges whereas Ash got 4 badges out of pity (he fairly won against LT Surge, Koga, Blaine & Team Rocket tho).

It would have been a good moral for kids to work hard instead of relying on luck to beat your enemies. This would have made me root for Ash even more than I did in that arc (at least Diamond & Pearl did this correctly when Ash lost to Paul badly in their Lake Acuity battle).

While it's true that Ash got to the Indigo League through a lot of pity badges and relying on Kingler for the first round was pretty cheap, it also would have been really anticlimactic for the Indigo League to be built up for nearly the entire Kanto arc only for Ash to lose right away. Getting to the Top 16 might have been realistically too high for Ash's skills at the time, but it was the best believable rank he could have gotten. I definitely don't think he should have made it into the semi-finals or won the whole thing.

We also don't really see much of Gary's skills. He always bragged about himself and he did have ten badges, but I don't know if that's enough to say that he worked hard to earn his badges, especially when we didn't really see much of his battles before fighting Giovanni. I do think it would have been interesting for Ash vs. Gary to happen in the Indigo League. I don't know if Ash could have won or if it would have felt satisfying for him to win, but their rivalry was a bigger deal in Kanto than it was in Johto, so not having a confrontation between them was kind of an odd choice at the time. At the very least, it might have been good to show more of Gary's battles during the League and especially the one where he lost since that would have given a better indication of his skills.

 

[LovelyChika123]

Getting to the Top 16 might have been realistically too high for Ash's skills at the time, but it was the best believable rank he could have gotten. I definitely don't think he should have made it into the semi-finals or won the whole thing.

I understand you. I do know that you don't like Misty's character too much, but you can't deny that she was correct when she told Ash that he was lucky to have made it as far as he did in the Indigo league. This is considering the fact that Ash didn't really prepare as much for the league and he also never got to find out why Charizard was being so disobedient towards him & repair their relationship before Ash just impulsively chose it to fight against Richie's Pokemon.. Now I'm not saying that Ash deserved to lose the league the way he did (it was humiliating), but his loss made perfect sense considering his skills at the time.

We also don't really see much of Gary's skills. He always bragged about himself and he did have ten badges, but I don't know if that's enough to say that he worked hard to earn his badges, especially when we didn't really see much of his battles before fighting Giovanni. I do think it would have been interesting for Ash vs. Gary to happen in the Indigo League. I don't know if Ash could have won or if it would have felt satisfying for him to win, but their rivalry was a bigger deal in Kanto than it was in Johto, so not having a confrontation between them was kind of an odd choice at the time. At the very least, it might have been good to show more of Gary's battles during the League and especially the one where he lost since that would have given a better indication of his skills.

As much as I liked the Kanto Arc, I think the Indigo League reeked of bad writing in a few parts. This is why I consider it the second worst league behind the Unova League. Maybe me claiming that Gary was a better trainer was too much of a stretch since we never even saw him win any battles on-screen (like you said). It also helps that the only time he was shown battling was when he lost badly to Giovanni. When it comes to Ash and Gary battling each other during the Indigo League, maybe the writers wanted to save their battle for the Johto league instead.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I understand you. I do know that you don't like Misty's character too much, but you can't deny that she was correct when she told Ash that he was lucky to have made it as far as he did in the Indigo league. This is considering the fact that Ash didn't really prepare as much for the league and he also never got to find out why Charizard was being so disobedient towards him & repair their relationship before Ash just impulsively chose it to fight against Richie's Pokemon.. Now I'm not saying that Ash deserved to lose the league the way he did (it was humiliating), but his loss made perfect sense considering his skills at the time.

Oh yeah, Misty was completely right. Putting how Ash got most of his badges aside for the moment, he spent the two months prior to the Indigo League barely training, didn't put in the effort to train Charizard and was too laid back about everything for his own good. Kingler winning the whole first match for Ash despite never been used in a battle before was just a complete deus ex machina win. Getting to the Top 16, let alone getting past the first round, was extremely lucky with Ash's skills and lack of preparation in mind. Even Professor Oak backed Misty up by saying that Ash could have gone further if he did more training and trained Charizard properly.

I'm pretty fine with how Ash lost the Indigo League to be honest. It was a humiliating way for him to lose, but Ash's lack of effort into getting Charizard to listen to him backfiring on him was pretty fitting. The battle itself was still bad, but I think it worked since Ash's own weaknesses as a trainer contributed to his defeat.

As much as I liked the Kanto Arc, I think the Indigo League reeked of bad writing in a few parts. This is why I consider it the second worst league behind the Unova League. Maybe me claiming that Gary was a better trainer was too much of a stretch since we never even saw him win any battles on-screen (like you said). It also helps that the only time he was shown battling was when he lost badly to Giovanni. When it comes to Ash and Gary battling each other during the Indigo League, maybe the writers wanted to save their battle for the Johto league instead.

Yeah, the Indigo League definitely doesn't hold up that well, especially compared to most of the other Leagues. It's possible by the time the Indigo League started that they knew that they were going to continue with the Johto games and saved their confrontation for that League instead. The anime was originaly going to cover just the original games and if that is the case, then ending the series without Ash having a proper battle with Gary would have been a weird and bad choice, so I would assume that they at least had more plans for Gary by the time they made the decision for him to lose so early in the Indigo League.

 

[ii kanji]

On reflection, the Kanto League feels kinda like Pokemon's version of Minky Momo's death. There, Shudo was pissed that his show was being pulled due to not shifting enough toys, here Shudo was pissed that this little brat he had been forced to write for the sole purpose of shifting toys was so successful even though the character had (in his eyes) done nothing to deserve it so just completely washed the League out for him...

 

[Daren]

I'd honestly argue the Indigo League loss was the best defeat from a story perspective simply because it led to genuine character growth, while later ones were just there to keep Ash as the main character regardless of how dumb or unsatisfying it was.

 

[Johtohfiller]

Yeah, the Indigo League definitely doesn't hold up that well, especially compared to most of the other Leagues. It's possible by the time the Indigo League started that they knew that they were going to continue with the Johto games and saved their confrontation for that League instead. The anime was originaly going to cover just the original games and if that is the case, then ending the series without Ash having a proper battle with Gary would have been a weird and bad choice, so I would assume that they at least had more plans for Gary by the time they made the decision for him to lose so early in the Indigo League.

They could have had Ash lose to Gary at the Indigo League and then get his rematch in Johto - though the battle wouldn't necessarily have been good; Kanto just wasn't too concerned with battles.

I think the success of the movies might have pushed the series in more of an action direction.

 

[Hidden Mew]

They could have had Ash lose to Gary at the Indigo League and then get his rematch in Johto - though the battle wouldn't necessarily have been good; Kanto just wasn't too concerned with battles.

I think the success of the movies might have pushed the series in more of an action direction.

That would have provided more weight and buildup for their Johto League rematch. I still kind of like Richie being the one to beat Ash. Their friendship felt genuine and it was the first time Ash had a major battle against someone he considered a friend, so I think that still provided an interesting kind of conflict for him, even if the battle itself was extremely short for all the buildup they had for it.