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Controversial opinions

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If I were to make a guess on to why Gym 8 is considered a pity badge by some, it might be because Team Rocket aren't generally considered a real challenge, seeing how Ash and his friends kick their butts on a regular basis. This is even reflected in how whenever win/loss ratios of main character Pokemon are discussed, wins against Team Rocket are almost always disregarded.

Granted, whether those parameters would even apply to this particular battle is highly questionable, since Team Rocket were using Giovanni's Pokemon, had a stage that injured challengers (something that imo would count as outright cheating), and later on in the battle tried to sick multiple Pokemon on Ash's at once.
If anything, Ash winning against them even through all this foul play is something that should be used as praise to him, not mockery.
 
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If I were to make a guess on to why Gym 8 is considered a pity badge by some, it might be because Team Rocket aren't generally considered a real challenge, seeing how Ash and his friends kick their butts on a regular basis. This is even reflected in how whenever win/loss ratios of main character Pokemon are discussed, wins against Team Rocket are almost always disregarded.

True, but those weren’t Team Rocket’s Pokémon that Ash battled & defeated. They were Giovanni’s. The fact that Team Rocket used Giovanni’s Pokémon all at once against Ash, to me, made Ash’s challenge against them much more difficult that it usually is. They used all those tactics to ensure Ash wouldn’t win, but he still won. I think Ash won fair and square.

Now it wasn’t Ash’s fault that Giovanni had to leave his gym on such short notice due to Mewtwo going berserk.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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True, but those weren’t Team Rocket’s Pokémon that Ash battled & defeated. They were Giovanni’s. The fact that Team Rocket used Giovanni’s Pokémon all at once against Ash, to me, made Ash’s challenge against them much more difficult that it usually is. They used all those tactics to ensure Ash wouldn’t win, but he still won. I think Ash won fair and square.
...I know, I said exactly that XD
 
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I think that saying Goh abandoned Raboot is a bit too harsh of a way to describe it. He genuinely thought that Raboot would be happier without him and left it with Pokemon that Raboot went out of his way to help. Goh ideally should have asked Raboot if it wanted to stay there instead of assuming that was the case or gave a clear farewell to Raboot after it woke up, which probably ties into Goh not really undestanding his Pokemon's feelings at the beginning of the series, but I don't think it's fair to say that he got away with almost abandoning Raboot. I don't think he needed to be punished for it exactly either. Goh did immediately regret his decision after Ash confronted him about it and he was going to go back for it before the train left. I think it was less about giving Goh a free pass for what he did to Raboot and more like they wanted to mirror Scorbunny thinking that it lost its chance to find Goh at the beginning of the series with Goh thinking he lost Raboot.
Yes, I think I was a bit harsh by saying Goh almost abandoned Raboot. I just didn't like how the episode ended. If Ash hadn't confronted Goh, he would probably just have left Raboot there with no previous warning. Again, I know he had good intentions, but he made a pretty bad mistake that could have deeply hurt Raboot, and made for a good episode plot! It could've made for a heartwarming episode where Goh realises his mistake and goes back to Hoenn to find Raboot. But the conflict was just resolved in two minutes in a way I personally found unsatisfying. I like Goh, and that's exactly why I wish they did something more interesting with him. I feel he has potential, but the way he's being handled he just comes across as supremely boring.

IMO, the dub music started making the dub unpleasant to watch during the Black & White series. Or at least, the quality of music between the original and the dub grew dramatically.
I watch the Latin American dub and for me the music lowered in quality since XY. I liked all the opening themes from OS to BW: Adventures in Unova (and Beyond) but there was not one opening from XY to SM: Ultra Legends that I liked. Which is sad because the Japanese opening/ending themes for SM were so good, the dub deserved much better music. At least the Journeys opening theme is nice.
 

Hidden Mew

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Yes, I think I was a bit harsh by saying Goh almost abandoned Raboot. I just didn't like how the episode ended. If Ash hadn't confronted Goh, he would probably just have left Raboot there with no previous warning. Again, I know he had good intentions, but he made a pretty bad mistake that could have deeply hurt Raboot, and made for a good episode plot! It could've made for a heartwarming episode where Goh realises his mistake and goes back to Hoenn to find Raboot. But the conflict was just resolved in two minutes in a way I personally found unsatisfying. I like Goh, and that's exactly why I wish they did something more interesting with him. I feel he has potential, but the way he's being handled he just comes across as supremely boring.

I can understand that. Part of that probably does have to do with how Journeys seemingly isn't interested in having more two parter episodes or arcs, even when there is potential for them to do so. The Suicune episode easily could have been made into a two-parter for example. I'm not sure if Ash was the only reason Goh changed his mind. He was pretty heartbroken about it already and could have still changed his mind on his own. I would say that Ash confronting him about it accelerated that thought process rather than being the only reason it happened. Raboot being on the train already also kind of fits with its behavior throughout the episode. It had been disappearing during the night only to show back up at the Pokemon Center multiple times, so having it be on the train beforehand doesn't really feel like a cheap cop out with that setup in mind.

I can still understand not being satisfied with the resolution. I still kind of wish that Raboot's behavior change was the result of Goh getting upset at it for trying to learn Ember, but I still think it worked given that Goh still thought he was the problem instead of Raboot, Raboot's behavior change being the result of its evolution still fits with its moody teenager design and Goh's excitement over seeing Raboot smiling in front of him was just heartwarming. While I do agree with some of the common complaints about Goh and how he has been handled, that episode is one of my favorites in Journey thus far. It really cemented how much I love Goh and his bond with Raboot is quite touching too.
 

Hidden Mew

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In retrospect, I think it was a bad idea to give Ash fully evolved Pokemon like Dragonite and Gengar. That isn't because I dislike either Pokemon. They both had great capture episodes, it showed that they were going for something different with Ash's team this time around and Dragonite's skills during the Korrina battle was a real highlight of the match for me. So I do understand why people are upset that they have such minimal screentime. I say that it was a bad choice to give Ash fully evolved Pokemon because that does limit how much development and growth his team can go through. Dragonite and Gengar aren't super powerful exactly, but since they are fully evolved and the show doesn't seem interested in doing a lot of on-screen training, there isn't a lot that they can do with them. That is probably one reason why Riolu got so much attention. It had room to grow and evolve. Obviously Lucario being incredibly popular was a big factor too and most of Riolu's moves were still taught off-screen, so I don't know if Dragonite and Gengar would have fared much better if Ash caught them unevolved either. This is one reason I hope that Ash catches more Pokemon since it would give him more Pokemon to raise and grow instead of getting more fully evolved Pokemon off the bat.

I was going to wait until I finished watching Journeys' first season, but at this point, I think it's safe to say that I prefer Goh's catching Pokemon goal over the PWC. It's probably more accurate to say that Goh's goal doesn't frustrate me as much as Ash's does, but I still prefer it at this point. I do agree with some of the complaints about Goh's goal. If they really want to mimic the Pokemon Go capture style, Goh should really struggle more to make these captures. However, I still generally enjoy watching Goh catch Pokemon, if only because it does remind me of how going on a capture spree can be fun in the games. It probably does help that I play Pokemon Go all the time too, so this catching method, while not really fitting within the context of the anime too well, still doesn't bother me because I'm used to doing it myself. Admittedly, that still probably isn't good when the anime treated captures as bigger deals before, but I don't put the blame on Goh for that. That is more on the writers for not treating most of his Pokemon as actual characters and being more focused on quantity than quality. Despite that, I still like seeing Goh capture Pokemon.

The PWC, on the other hand, is beyond salvageable for me at this point. To be fair, I think that the hype around this goal that I heard about prior to seeing the series is a big factor. People have been saying that going back to Gyms would be a downgrade for Ash and that this is a step up for him because it's a bigger grander tournament, but I just don't see it. Aside from three Gym Leaders, he has only battled against one shot opponents in short one-on-one battles. Am I really supposed to think that Ash is getting one step closer to Leon because he defeated an Elekid in a minute or defeated the bug girl's Heracross in two minutes? If they wanted to make the PWC into a bigger deal, not having most of Ash's matches being footnotes would have helped. This also makes the whole Ash's over confidence with his first match against Bea much harder to pull off. Winning non-stop would feed into Ash's ego, but it usually helps when he's defeated multiple strong opponents. Outside of Korrina, who Ash already defeated, none of his opponents prior to Bea were that strong, making the over confidence point harder to really pull off.

The match against Bea didn't make me think that Ash could potentially have stronger opponents as the PWC progresses. It made me think that getting the Galar Gym Challenge would be far more interesting and challenging. Bea is only the fourth Gym Leader in Sword, so all of the other Gym Leaders should be especially strong as well. I suppose that there is still time to make the PWC actually a good and compelling goal, but if this how they start it out within Journeys' first year, I don't have much confidence that they'll suddenly make it good as Ash progresses through the ranks.
 

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In retrospect, I think it was a bad idea to give Ash fully evolved Pokemon like Dragonite and Gengar. That isn't because I dislike either Pokemon. They both had great capture episodes, it showed that they were going for something different with Ash's team this time around and Dragonite's skills during the Korrina battle was a real highlight of the match for me. So I do understand why people are upset that they have such minimal screentime. I say that it was a bad choice to give Ash fully evolved Pokemon because that does limit how much development and growth his team can go through. Dragonite and Gengar aren't super powerful exactly, but since they are fully evolved and the show doesn't seem interested in doing a lot of on-screen training, there isn't a lot that they can do with them. That is probably one reason why Riolu got so much attention. It had room to grow and evolve. Obviously Lucario being incredibly popular was a big factor too and most of Riolu's moves were still taught off-screen, so I don't know if Dragonite and Gengar would have fared much better if Ash caught them unevolved either. This is one reason I hope that Ash catches more Pokemon since it would give him more Pokemon to raise and grow instead of getting more fully evolved Pokemon off the bat.
At this point I strongly suspect he was given fully evolved Pokémon specifically because they planned to give Ash Riolu than focus most of the development on it and wanted his other captuess to be low maintenance, so to speak.
...looking back maybe that's also why Pidgeotto and Noctowl were already evolved but the more prominent later regional birds weren't. Hmm.

The PWC, on the other hand, is beyond salvageable for me at this point. To be fair, I think that the hype around this goal that I heard about prior to seeing the series is a big factor. People have been saying that going back to Gyms would be a downgrade for Ash and that this is a step up for him because it's a bigger grander tournament, but I just don't see it. Aside from three Gym Leaders, he has only battled against one shot opponents in short one-on-one battles. Am I really supposed to think that Ash is getting one step closer to Leon because he defeated an Elekid in a minute or defeated the bug girl's Heracross in two minutes? If they wanted to make the PWC into a bigger deal, not having most of Ash's matches being footnotes would have helped. This also makes the whole Ash's over confidence with his first match against Bea much harder to pull off. Winning non-stop would feed into Ash's ego, but it usually helps when he's defeated multiple strong opponents. Outside of Korrina, who Ash already defeated, none of his opponents prior to Bea were that strong, making the over confidence point harder to really pull off.
Honestly I'm starting to worry that the "I have no idea if Ash will face Leon" statement in that one interview wasn't just playing coy, but they genuinely do not know what they're doing with Ash at this point and the PWC is going to be a big nothing that nobody is really happy with.
(It could be argued that's been true for years now but that the cracks are really starting to show now that they're not relying on a league as a focusing point.)
 

Hidden Mew

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Honestly I'm starting to worry that the "I have no idea if Ash will face Leon" statement in that one interview wasn't just playing coy, but they genuinely do not know what they're doing with Ash at this point and the PWC is going to be a big nothing that nobody is really happy with.
(It could be argued that's been true for years now but that the cracks are really starting to show now that they're not relying on a league as a focusing point.)

The idea of the PWC being a big at this point sounds pretty likely to me. Not having a clear sign of progression like with the Gym badge quest is also probably part of the problem. There are the different ranks and the classes, but it is harder to see how winning one battle increases Ash's rank compared to just getting a badge.

its ironic that you consider the PWC 'beyond salvageable' while enjoying the "catch em all" grind when ironically, the latter is responsible for the former not being handled well and given the needed focus.

Not really. Putting all of the blame on Goh for how the PWC has been handled is just using him as a scapegoat. My problems with the PWC is really just how it has been handled from the ground up. Problems like the amount of short one-on-one battles against one shot characters or how incredibly unimpressive the PWC feels isn't because they spend so much time on Goh's goal. It's because the series is too fast paced for its own good and doesn't want to spend time fleshing out its plot points, which isn't exclusive to just Ash's goal either. That's probably why we rarely get multiple-part episodes, they barely spend time in any region not named Kanto and to a degree Galar, the longest battles thus far have been just two-on-two and why Goh catches Pokemon relatively easy. That is more of the root cause of a lot of Journeys' problems instead of saying it's all Goh's fault. Blaming Goh or how his his goal has been handled for the problems with the PWC is kind of missing the point, or at least the point of everything in my post. Goh isn't the reason why they decided to make most of Ash's PWC matches into two minute footnotes as opposed to making them to central focus of those episodes.
 

Hidden Mew

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Both goals are being awfully handled, I dislike both.
Journeys lacks a sense of direction.

I can understand that. Journeys lacking direction and a clear sense of focus is a major problem too. To be clear, I'm not saying that Goh's goal is perfect or is beyond criticism. It just doesn't bother me like it does with other people and I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame on how the PWC has been poorly handled on Goh either.
 

Hidden Mew

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then how is all of this the fault of Ash, his goal or the PWC? it's pretty much the poor planning and structure of the entire series, and the general laziness/slacking of the writing staff that is to blame. and by extension of that poor planning, most of the focus is given to Goh and them not being bothered to develop Ash further because why focus on the more complex character when you can take the lazy way out with a writer's pet insert who's capable of doing anything as per the plot demand?

I didn't say that this was Ash's fault either. The fault really comes down to the writers and how they've chosen to handle the goal. I kind of implied that by saying how the fast pace of the series was kind of the root cause of a lot of the problems in Journeys too, not just with Ash or even Goh. That's why I don't think it's fair to say that Goh is responsible for how the PWC has been handled when a lot of it comes down to the execution or the foundation they've established for the PWC. I love Ash as much as the next person, but calling him the more complex character is really overselling him. I don't agree with the more cynical take on Goh's character or his role in the series either.
 

Enzo

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The idea of the PWC being a big at this point sounds pretty likely to me. Not having a clear sign of progression like with the Gym badge quest is also probably part of the problem. There are the different ranks and the classes, but it is harder to see how winning one battle increases Ash's rank compared to just getting a badge.
Okay, this is not really a opinion per say, but we touched this and I don't really know where else to put it lol

Did them ever explained how exactly the PWC points are counted? Like, there's very simple rules: You win, you gain points and your oppenent loses points and vice versa. If it's a draw nothing happens. But like,,, how are those points accounted for?

Like, how do they know how much points the participants earn or lose? The number almost seems,,, random. Like, in ep 25, he was in 921. In ep 30, he was in ep 901. So considering no off-screen battles happenned in this 5 ep period, at least as far as we know, he went up 20 points with one battle. But how exactly we know that value is ''correct''?

Are there any variables, such as how many Pokemon were used as how many are still able to battle? Like, in a 2 VS 2, does the math changes when it ends n a 2-0, 2-1, 1-1, or 1-0? And how much? If you knock your opponent's Pokemon with one hit or in a close battle, does your ranking gets affected by that? How is the math done in this sittuation??? :unsure:

At least with the Gym Badges, we knew that you just had to have 8, no matter which or the order they were obtained.
 

Kurolegacy

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Okay, this is not really a opinion per say, but we touched this and I don't really know where else to put it lol

Did them ever explained how exactly the PWC points are counted? Like, there's very simple rules: You win, you gain points and your oppenent loses points and vice versa. If it's a draw nothing happens. But like,,, how are those points accounted for?

Like, how do they know how much points the participants earn or lose? The number almost seems,,, random. Like, in ep 25, he was in 921. In ep 30, he was in ep 901. So considering no off-screen battles happenned in this 5 ep period, at least as far as we know, he went up 20 points with one battle. But how exactly we know that value is ''correct''?

Are there any variables, such as how many Pokemon were used as how many are still able to battle? Like, in a 2 VS 2, does the math changes when it ends n a 2-0, 2-1, 1-1, or 1-0? And how much? If you knock your opponent's Pokemon with one hit or in a close battle, does your ranking gets affected by that? How is the math done in this sittuation??? :unsure:

At least with the Gym Badges, we knew that you just had to have 8, no matter which or the order they were obtained.
Nope, they’ve never really given any kind of in depth explanation on the points system. Back when Ash first entered, there was some explanation of how the performance in the battle factored in making it seem that it wasn’t only about winning the battle but they’ve never gone anywhere with that since especially with every battle just being done as normal.
 
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