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Controversial opinions

Discussion in 'Pokémon Anime and Manga' started by SinnohEevee, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

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    Adventures sticks close to the games, too closely sometimes. I dunno if it was part of some contract or what, but Kusaka goes out if his way to show everything from the games, even stuff that don't make sense in a realistic setting.
     
  2. HiroHunter

    HiroHunter Member

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    Well thats the thing I don't get why people say that Origins and Game Red are better than Ash when I can bring up what makes them better than Ash? That they're Champs of Kanto? Well the Road to becoming the Champ of a region for Ash is a lot harder than with Origins and Game Red.
     
  3. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    Yeah. That's another thing I'm questioning. Why have the battles end if even just one Pokémon gets knocked out? Heck, for the first three chapters, this applied to all battles, not just League tournament battles. Where did Kusaka pull that rule from? It's not even a thing in the games.

    Also, why is the speed a Pokémon is sent out with such a big thing? For example, in Red's first battle with Giovanni, Giovanni made a big deal about in how many seconds Red could send out his Pokémon. Seconds! Why would that even matter?

    And speaking of the aforementioned battle, in the manga, the bad guys sometimes even employ the strategy of disabling their opponent's Poké Balls to prevent them from using their Pokémon and attacking the opposing Trainer directly. I understand that this is treated as unfair even in-universe, but the fact the bad guys in the manga even consider these kinds of tactics is crazy.

    Like how some caught Pokémon are never used again after being caught, meaning that they're literally just sitting in a Box for all eternity. This issue was even addressed in the Generation VII games. This is why Ash has never tried to "catch 'em all" in the anime, and is definitely a field where the anime has the manga beat IMO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  4. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    Probably because due to the heavy streamlining necessary for the Reds, they make way fewer mistakes and get from point A to point B much quicker.

    Ash's road is a lot less straightforward, which is both good and bad. It gives him a lot more time to get things done and do impressive things, but at the same time, you can still end up feeling like "but wait, that's /all/ you managed to do with all the extra screentime and focus you have access to?"

    Ash's resets can also feel anywhere from upsetting to outright infuriating to some people, and I still consider them one of the hardest things to accept even if I can tolerate them a lot more than I used to.

    The resets also make it harder to trust Ash's competence, to an extent. You basically have to imagine some hypothetical "best of all worlds" Ash by yourself, because you never really know what they're gonna do with Ash's character and competence as time goes on, making him feel much less consistent.

    So basically, I would say people feel that Red is better for being portrayed as more consistent and efficient.

    But to me personally, it's kinda like comparing apples and oranges. To have Ash and a Red fight fairly, you'd have to adapt them to fit into one universe and give them both equal understanding of how that universe's battling works, or else they're hardly even compatible.
     
  5. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    Good "resets" of Ash are those where he still does portray all the experiences he's previously gathered, like in Hoenn, Sinnoh, Kalos, and even Alola. The Unova reboot (yes, this was even worse than a mere reset) was an attempt to copy the original Ash by reverting him down to incompetent levels, which just seemed unnatural and stupid, considering how skillful and strong he had proven himself in the previous series. It simply didn't make sense for all that experience to just vanish into thin air. It worked in season 1 because back then, Ash didn't have any previous experiences as a Trainer, so it was kinda understandable that he'd make goofy mistakes. But when you try to recreate the same character by forcibly removing all of his past experiences from his actions, it just doesn't feel natural.

    But anyway, I've personally not had pretty much any problems with Ash's "resets" anywhere else besides Unova, since although his "levels" and teams reset, his previous experiences are still there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  6. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    At this point, I understand every reset from a "why would the writers do it" perspective, so my issue is just a more personal matter of not relating to it much. In a world where Pokemon aren't just data anymore, I would never want to just leave them behind like that.

    Not to mention that I wouldn't feel comfortable implying favoritism by only planning to have Pikachu come with me, since animeverse Pokemon would be sapient enough to possibly interpret it that way, even if it wasn't what I actually meant by it.

    Like I do know that Ash won't turn other Pokemon down if they really want to come with him, but even then, the case with Aipom ended up leading to a disappointing fate for that Pokemon. (Aipom ending up with Dawn? Cool. Aipom evolving just to end up in some ping-pong thing most people don't really care about, where she'll probably never see Ash or Dawn again? Eeehhhhh...)

    Basically, I still wish resets weren't a thing, but at this point I've just accepted that it's not always about what I want.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  7. HiroHunter

    HiroHunter Member

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    If I have to make a strongest to weakest with the three Reds we know of and Ash it would be:
    Manga Red => Ash > Game Red >>> Origins Red
     
  8. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

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    Because they are Gary Stues.
    * Caught 'em all.
    * Became Kanto Champion
    * Took Team Rocket down by himself
    * Became a Pokémon Master
    *Travelled alone
     
  9. HiroHunter

    HiroHunter Member

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    This. And as for how strong they are as trainers the only reason Origins Red is that strong is only because of Charizard and Mewtwo all of his other pokemon have no real feats and are only there to get stomped to make Charizard look better. And as for Game Red if hes really the best then how did he lose to the Gen 2, 5, and 7 MC people he should be stronger than?
     
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  10. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    I feel like "Gary Stu" is still a term that should be generally avoided for these characters, though.

    Both Mary Sue and Gary Stu over the years have basically turned into completely opinion-based shorthand for "Character accomplishing more than I'm comfortable with", and they tend to get very overused now. To this day, even well-developed OCs and professional characters can still get easily dog-piled with Mary Sue accusations to discredit them.

    Really, the plausibility of a character is mainly about context and balance

    So Game Red, and by extension Origins Red and every main protag pretty much have to have the potential to become really powerful prodigy heroes, or else you completely lose one of the biggest points of the game.

    Because Pokespe sticks so close to the game, it's a similar situation to Origins Red, in the sense that it ends up inheriting this idea of all the main kids being prodigies and heroes too. Did it have to? No. But it's still a close game adaptation, so the original context still applies to an extent.

    Also, even Ash can be argued as a Gary Stu in certain ways, just to illustrate how subjective it is. Eg:
    - Has somehow met and helped ton of legends, even outside of movies.
    - Is the second person ever to unlock a special Greninja form
    - Said Greninja can OHKO an Altaria with Water Shuriken.
    - Has been saved by plot armor and weird strategies multiple times
    - Has a Pikachu stronger than all the Raichu we've seen, and has defeated or tied with legends and pseudos.
    - Got a Goomy to become a Goodra in like 10 episodes
    - Has made tons and tons of friends, even the Rocket Trio seems fond of him sometimes.
    - Has an Infernape with an unusually powerful Blaze
    - Managed second place in Kalos League with Pikachu as his only old Pokemon.
    - Multiple people have either implied or confirmed romantic feelings for him.
    - Conveniently managed to get a Krabby to become Kingler mid-battle to wreck someone back in the Indigo League.
    - Has Aura, meaning he literally has the potential to develop superpowers.

    Note that I don't actually think Ash is a Gary Stu, and all I did was cherry-pick some stuff to emphasize my point.
     
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  11. Johtohfiller

    Johtohfiller Well-Known Member

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    I like that Ash started out unskilled and it took him time to become a good battler, but early on his noobness does come across as exaggerated for the sake of laughs. I chalk it up to the show being closer to a pure comedy when it started and got more serious about the battling aspect over time.


    I tend to think of the show as an account of Ash's story rather than "live footage", things like this are embellishments for the audience.
     
  12. Harmful Heron

    Harmful Heron #FreeDankula

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    A "Close game adaption" emphasizing the fighting villianous teams part of the games over the league part to the point that of adapting neutral aligned characters as villainous so the have enough villains to go around?

    Okay.
     
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  13. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    I thought it was already pretty clear that close still doesn't mean exact in this case, and what I was getting at is that it's close in the sense of "A bunch of things from the games carried over, including the concept of really talented kids who are able to accomplish great feats of power and heroism

    I never meant to say "It's literally the same thing and nothing about what it does is different"
     
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  14. DoctorMeow

    DoctorMeow Member

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    Not sure how controversial these are because it's been ages since I've seen the anime, but whatever.

    - The anime has become way too formulaic and needs a major shakedown change. I'm thinking all new characters and a more serious plot. There's a lot of material in the Pokémon universe and the current anime is only utilizing SOME of it.
    - Ash should've been replaced with a different protagonist a LONG time ago.
    - The first BW anime opening was actually pretty good and it sounds nice.
    - Johto's first opening theme is better than Kanto's opening theme.
    - Pikachu is annoying as heck. Maybe this is just me but I hate seeing Pikachu's darn face and hearing Pikachu's darn squeal. And it's Ash's particular Pikachu. He just has little personality (like Ash as well IMO).
     
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  15. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    So, another thing I've been thinking of: I usually don't actually care when Pokemon don't evolve, at least not in most cases... The main exceptions are when it feels like evolving would improve personality, or they already said that Pokemon wanted to evolve.

    Piplup and Oshawott fit my idea of the first example (No offense, but their style of humor gets old really easily), while Axew is the second example.

    But I do wish that the anime would pay slightly more attention to the fact that unevolved Pokemon would present special challenges and require more planning and creativity or more training, rather than giving off the frequent impression that it doesn't really matter.

    Like, they bring it up with Pikachu vs. Raichu, then pretty much never go into it that much anymore.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  16. Kurolegacy

    Kurolegacy New Member

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    I don't like the concept of the Ultra Guardians being basically a Sentai knockoff. It feels completely unnecessary for the plot of the dealings with the Ultra Beasts and just takes me out of the whole thing which is especially a shame considering how well the writing was when dealing with Nihilego. It just feels like they forgot that they were writing Pokemon and only stopped short of a team pose upon arriving on the scene.
     
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  17. HiroHunter

    HiroHunter Member

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    I gotten bored of SM not only are they not doing the Trials one of the main things to do in the games. Now they're doing this Sentai knockoff for the UB and when they're not doing that a good amount of the time the ep is filler at this point i'm waiting for something new to happen, but if they're bringing in Team RR for the end of the anime. Then i'm giving up on the SM anime and waiting got the next anime to come out because at this point this it only better than BW and to me thats not a good thing.
     
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  18. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    Sun & Moon is a slice of life anime. Of course the trials aren't always the main focus. If they were, this series would be over way too soon.
     
  19. Rockapheller

    Rockapheller Trainer since late 90's

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    Why though? Animé was never necessarily over too soon with 8 badges per region formula up until that point.
     
  20. HiroHunter

    HiroHunter Member

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    And to me that's the worst thing about the SM anime the fact its a SoL anime kills it for me and its not that I hate SoL anime, it that it doesn't work for Pokemon it was OK at the start, but now its boring. And about the fact that this is a SoL anime why should I watch this over better SoL anime that are out there? Because to me this is one of the worst SoL anime I ever watched.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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