Controversial opinions

[SinnohEevee]

Well thats the thing I don't get why people say that Origins and Game Red are better than Ash when I can bring up what makes them better than Ash? That they're Champs of Kanto? Well the Road to becoming the Champ of a region for Ash is a lot harder than with Origins and Game Red.

Because they are Gary Stues.
* Caught 'em all.
* Became Kanto Champion
* Took Team Rocket down by himself
* Became a Pokémon Master
*Travelled alone

 

[HiroHunter]

Because they are Gary Stues.
* Caught 'em all.
* Became Kanto Champion
* Took Team Rocket down by himself
* Became a Pokémon Master
*Travelled alone

This. And as for how strong they are as trainers the only reason Origins Red is that strong is only because of Charizard and Mewtwo all of his other pokemon have no real feats and are only there to get stomped to make Charizard look better. And as for Game Red if hes really the best then how did he lose to the Gen 2, 5, and 7 MC people he should be stronger than?

 

[CaptainBuggles]

I feel like "Gary Stu" is still a term that should be generally avoided for these characters, though.

Both Mary Sue and Gary Stu over the years have basically turned into completely opinion-based shorthand for "Character accomplishing more than I'm comfortable with", and they tend to get very overused now. To this day, even well-developed OCs and professional characters can still get easily dog-piled with Mary Sue accusations to discredit them.

Really, the plausibility of a character is mainly about context and balance

So Game Red, and by extension Origins Red and every main protag pretty much have to have the potential to become really powerful prodigy heroes, or else you completely lose one of the biggest points of the game.

Because Pokespe sticks so close to the game, it's a similar situation to Origins Red, in the sense that it ends up inheriting this idea of all the main kids being prodigies and heroes too. Did it have to? No. But it's still a close game adaptation, so the original context still applies to an extent.

Also, even Ash can be argued as a Gary Stu in certain ways, just to illustrate how subjective it is. Eg:
- Has somehow met and helped ton of legends, even outside of movies.
- Is the second person ever to unlock a special Greninja form
- Said Greninja can OHKO an Altaria with Water Shuriken.
- Has been saved by plot armor and weird strategies multiple times
- Has a Pikachu stronger than all the Raichu we've seen, and has defeated or tied with legends and pseudos.
- Got a Goomy to become a Goodra in like 10 episodes
- Has made tons and tons of friends, even the Rocket Trio seems fond of him sometimes.
- Has an Infernape with an unusually powerful Blaze
- Managed second place in Kalos League with Pikachu as his only old Pokemon.
- Multiple people have either implied or confirmed romantic feelings for him.
- Conveniently managed to get a Krabby to become Kingler mid-battle to wreck someone back in the Indigo League.
- Has Aura, meaning he literally has the potential to develop superpowers.

Note that I don't actually think Ash is a Gary Stu, and all I did was cherry-pick some stuff to emphasize my point.

 

[Johtohfiller]

It was a mistake to make Ash so flawed and naive at the start of the show, and in turn it brings down the quality of the OS. Beyond nostalgia, it's not terrible, but it's not all that special either.

Like, I'm not saying make Ash overpowered and perfect, but how naive and reckless he is at first borders on difficult to believe in its own right. It might be that they wanted him to be extra flawed to be more of an equal to kids who aren't familiar with Pokemon, but it's kind of weird when you consider that Ash actually lives in the world. There's genuinely more on the line and more risk for him, plus he's directly exposed to a culture where Pokemon are part of everything. In that case, he should be a bit more invested in doing it right than someone who's just playing a game, and there are times when his ignorance and overall attitude doesn't make much sense.

If you like Pokemon so much, shouldn't you have at least studied the basics more as a natural consequence of liking them? Like I don't expect him to be swallowing down college texts, but what about all the children's books and educational kids shows you'd think there'd be? Wouldn't Delia have wanted to make sure he knows these things before he left?

Even as a kid, I had many moments of "Ash should've known better" or "He's lucky that didn't go worse".

It's even weirder that they go on to use the concept of "smarter/more studious newbie" for certain rivals, making Ash's character back then seem even less necessary.

I like that Ash started out unskilled and it took him time to become a good battler, but early on his noobness does come across as exaggerated for the sake of laughs. I chalk it up to the show being closer to a pure comedy when it started and got more serious about the battling aspect over time.

And his room is full of pokemon merchandise, yet he don't know anything about them.

I tend to think of the show as an account of Ash's story rather than "live footage", things like this are embellishments for the audience.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

A "Close game adaption" emphasizing the fighting villianous teams part of the games over the league part to the point that of adapting neutral aligned characters as villainous so the have enough villains to go around?

Okay.

 

[CaptainBuggles]

A "Close game adaption" emphasizing the fighting villianous teams part of the games over the league part to the point that of adapting neutral aligned characters as villainous so the have enough villains to go around?

Okay.

I thought it was already pretty clear that close still doesn't mean exact in this case, and what I was getting at is that it's close in the sense of "A bunch of things from the games carried over, including the concept of really talented kids who are able to accomplish great feats of power and heroism

I never meant to say "It's literally the same thing and nothing about what it does is different"

 

[DarkMeow]

Not sure how controversial these are because it's been ages since I've seen the anime, but whatever.

- The anime has become way too formulaic and needs a major shakedown change. I'm thinking all new characters and a more serious plot. There's a lot of material in the Pokémon universe and the current anime is only utilizing SOME of it.
- Ash should've been replaced with a different protagonist a LONG time ago.
- The first BW anime opening was actually pretty good and it sounds nice.
- Johto's first opening theme is better than Kanto's opening theme.
- Pikachu is annoying as heck. Maybe this is just me but I hate seeing Pikachu's darn face and hearing Pikachu's darn squeal. And it's Ash's particular Pikachu. He just has little personality (like Ash as well IMO).

 

[CaptainBuggles]

So, another thing I've been thinking of: I usually don't actually care when Pokemon don't evolve, at least not in most cases... The main exceptions are when it feels like evolving would improve personality, or they already said that Pokemon wanted to evolve.

Piplup and Oshawott fit my idea of the first example (No offense, but their style of humor gets old really easily), while Axew is the second example.

But I do wish that the anime would pay slightly more attention to the fact that unevolved Pokemon would present special challenges and require more planning and creativity or more training, rather than giving off the frequent impression that it doesn't really matter.

Like, they bring it up with Pikachu vs. Raichu, then pretty much never go into it that much anymore.

 

[Kurolegacy]

I don't like the concept of the Ultra Guardians being basically a Sentai knockoff. It feels completely unnecessary for the plot of the dealings with the Ultra Beasts and just takes me out of the whole thing which is especially a shame considering how well the writing was when dealing with Nihilego. It just feels like they forgot that they were writing Pokemon and only stopped short of a team pose upon arriving on the scene.

 

[HiroHunter]

I gotten bored of SM not only are they not doing the Trials one of the main things to do in the games. Now they're doing this Sentai knockoff for the UB and when they're not doing that a good amount of the time the ep is filler at this point i'm waiting for something new to happen, but if they're bringing in Team RR for the end of the anime. Then i'm giving up on the SM anime and waiting got the next anime to come out because at this point this it only better than BW and to me thats not a good thing.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I gotten bored of SM not only are they not doing the Trials one of the main things to do in the games.

Sun & Moon is a slice of life anime. Of course the trials aren't always the main focus. If they were, this series would be over way too soon.

 

[Rockapheller]

Sun & Moon is a slice of life anime. Of course the trials aren't always the main focus. If they were, this series would be over way too soon.

Why though? Animé was never necessarily over too soon with 8 badges per region formula up until that point.

 

[HiroHunter]

Sun & Moon is a slice of life anime. Of course the trials aren't always the main focus. If they were, this series would be over way too soon.

And to me that's the worst thing about the SM anime the fact its a SoL anime kills it for me and its not that I hate SoL anime, it that it doesn't work for Pokemon it was OK at the start, but now its boring. And about the fact that this is a SoL anime why should I watch this over better SoL anime that are out there? Because to me this is one of the worst SoL anime I ever watched.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Why though? Animé was never necessarily over too soon with 8 badges per region formula up until that point.

Is it the fact that Ash just isn't traveling between trials that makes it feel different? What 's wrong with that?

And to me that's the worst thing about the SM anime the fact its a SoL anime kills it for me and its not that I hate SoL anime, it that it doesn't work for Pokemon it was OK at the start, but now its boring. And about the fact that this is a SoL anime why should I watch this over better SoL anime that are out there? Because to me this is one of the worst SoL anime I ever watched.

So... You're not willing to give the new format a chance? Generation 7 is the era of breaking traditions, even with the anime.

 

[HiroHunter]

Is it the fact that Ash just isn't traveling between trials that makes it feel different? What 's wrong with that?


So... You're not willing to give the new format a chance? Generation 7 is the era of breaking traditions, even with the anime.

The whole traveling between trials this could work if he did all the trials but at this point he skip two of them and who knows if he ever going back to do them. And I gave the anime a chance and it failed, I gave it 69 eps and it still failed.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Sun & Moon is a slice of life anime. Of course the trials aren't always the main focus. If they were, this series would be over way too soon.

Honestly, for me, that's the entire problem. Pokemon is a series about the adventure and the journey, not a slice of life. We've always had episodes where Ash and friends would get involved in what was the day to day lives f people they met and those are the episodes that were always filler. Now that's all that there is.

There honestly isn't even a fathomable reason as to why Ash, an experienced trainer who has traveled 6 different regions, even needs to be in school to begin with. If they were gonna try that angle, it should have either been only an arc or it should have been with a brand new protagonist because it fits as much in progression as going from spending your life studying to be a gymnast only for you to be thrust into Nascar. There's honestly nothing for Ash to gain from a school setting that he wouldn't have simply learned traveling the islands. At this point, the Orange Islands captured Ash experiencing a tropical region better and in a more interesting manner than Sun and Moon.

 

[EscLucy]

I think it is always good for the anime writers to try something new and to experiment to see what works and what doesn't. Remember Ash goes back to being a 'noob' in every region and Pokemon School would make sense as he doesn't know much about Alola. Also, I think it is fun to see a change once in a while and I've been enjoying most of the fillers. I mean what did we expect? - the anime normally follows the games TO SOME EXTENT so there had to be some trials. Ash is showing progression because he's already beaten two Kahunas and also we know that there will be a Pokemon League so it does all circle back.

I think it is too early to say how Ash's journey will pan out and whether it will stay relevant. I am always open to change and I think the anime is going well so far. I agree with @FinnishPokéFan92 's comments about needing some change. It is also worth mentioning that whilst people in this forum are Pokemon fans, the anime is tailored to younger audiences and therefore it would make sense to have a school-type situation and for Ash to be a 'noob' in every region.

I think this change has meant the easier flow of character development - I certainly see the TRio being more exciting and have shown different emotions which is what @ii kanji, @TRNatalie and I (and others) have noticed in the Sun and Moon anime. I really appreciate the effort the writers have gone to in bringing about this needed change.

 

[Kurolegacy]

I think it is always good for the anime writers to try something new and to experiment to see what works and what doesn't. Remember Ash goes back to being a 'noob' in every region and Pokemon School would make sense as he doesn't know much about Alola. Also, I think it is fun to see a change once in a while and I've been enjoying most of the fillers. I mean what did we expect? - the anime normally follows the games TO SOME EXTENT so there had to be some trials. Ash is showing progression because he's already beaten two Kahunas and also we know that there will be a Pokemon League so it does all circle back.

I think it is too early to say how Ash's journey will pan out and whether it will stay relevant. I am always open to change and I think the anime is going well so far. I agree with @FinnishPokéFan92 's comments about needing some change. It is also worth mentioning that whilst people in this forum are Pokemon fans, the anime is tailored to younger audiences and therefore it would make sense to have a school-type situation and for Ash to be a 'noob' in every region.

I think this change has meant the easier flow of character development - I certainly see the TRio being more exciting and have shown different emotions which is what @ii kanji, @TRNatalie and I (and others) have noticed in the Sun and Moon anime. I really appreciate the effort the writers have gone to in bringing about this needed change.

Only thing is, the concept of Ash being reset to a noob has really only ever come up twice in the entire run with BW and here. Sure they've had Pikachu getting reset by some occurrence in the plot but all the other regions have had Ash's skill level remain consistent between regions.

And while I'm fine with changing somethings up to keep things fresh, I also find that there's a limit to just how much you can change before it doesn't even feel like you're watching the same show. For example, I love Gundam for it's overarching stories, and amazing mecha battles but I would hate for the series to suddenly shift to a high school comedy in which the Gundams were essentially just a background element. And that's basically what Sun and Moon feels like to me, just a whole bunch of nothing happening the whole time and while they may give (limited) development to the cast, it's so overly bloated with characters who you really can't display their goals being realized in either an interesting way or in a way that could fit into a Pokemon series that most of the time, they're just kinda there as opposed to feeling like meaningful main characters.

Sure they've shown they can make some really good story beats like Lilie's story arc through the first season when we really started learning more about her past all culminating in the gang entering into Ultra Space or any of Ash's Grand Trials, but that kind of contrast makes it even more jarring that we have so much fluff happening most of the time.

 

[CaptainBuggles]

I feel like Pokemon actually could be a good slice of life. I've always been kinda interested in the idea of a Pokemon thing that has less conflict and works a bit more like a nature documentary/field journaling kind of thing. (and provides us more complete, consistent, accurate information on Pokemon rather than the half-assed job the Pokedex does.)

Or, if anyone's seen Mushishi, doing basically that but with Pokemon would be something I would watch.

But the real kicker is that Ash himself just isn't that good for a slice of life setting. (IMO)

They literally spent almost twenty years building him up as an adventurer in a set formula, and now he's suddenly a student. There are a lot of commonly held wishes and expectations for his character, and going against them is inevitably going to cause an issue. Sure, he still kind of does what he did before, but people can't be blamed if they have trouble coping with that.

I do consider the rational and sensible reasons they have for not wanting to switch protags, so it's not like I think they're outright stupid for the decision, but this time it feels like the decision has more downsides than ever, now that the formula's changed but we still have Ash.

Plus, the show's resetting/floating timeline and it's decision to change style is also annoying to a lot of people because the plot and Ash's goals naturally lend themselves to a linear timeline with strong continuity that constantly builds on itself... It's not like Simpsons or Detective Conan or something, where you don't necessarily need a sense of continuous upwards progress as much.

And in Sun/Moon, it's kind of weird how he's pretty good at battling, and yet his Pokemon's movepools aren't that impressive and he uses tactics that don't always make that much sense. Like, Rowlet still has only three moves (not counting modifying them into Z-Moves), Pikachu can somehow electricity-climb a whirlpool with no foreshadowing that it's possible, Lycanroc's still using Rock Throw... So it ends up making his strength feel kind of arbitrary sometimes... and with so much lightheartedness and fluff in the show, sometimes it conflicts a little. The sense that Ash is truly determined tended to have more impact before too... Here, it feels kinda like Ash is usually just a goofy kid who suddenly manages to pull off crazy wins when it really counts. Even his training tends to have a goofier vibe to it, which just provides a further example of why I feel this way.

And not to dump on TR fans, but I have to be honest and say that I don't really care about upsides related to them, because I've gotten really tired of TR. Both the TRio and the team as a whole.

 

[Rockapheller]

Is it the fact that Ash just isn't traveling between trials that makes it feel different? What 's wrong with that?

How is this related to my question exactly?