Controversial opinions

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

And in the end, unlike Infernape, the ending didn't smile down towards Greninja's favor since he ended up not only losing to Alain's Charizard but also was released by Ash.

Greninja was done SO DIRTY

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Although it has its positives in world-building and showing the "other-side" to life in the Pokémon world, I still feel that the Adventures manga is fairly weak and over-bloated. Too much too fast with very little substance imo. I wish there was a better alternative.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Although it has its positives in world-building and showing the "other-side" to life in the Pokémon world, I still feel that the Adventures manga is fairly weak and over-bloated. Too much too fast with very little substance imo. I wish there was a better alternative.

I personally think its flaws are that it follows game logic too much, ignoring real life logic in the process, and making its main characters prodigies and the only people in the world with Pokédexes makes them sort of "Chosen Ones" and limits the potential character growth they can have. Both of these flaws are much, much less severe in the anime.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

I personally think its flaws are that it follows game logic too much, ignoring real life logic in the process, and making its main characters prodigies and the only people in the world with Pokédexes makes them sort of "Chosen Ones" and limits the potential character growth they can have. Both of these flaws are much, much less severe in the anime.

True, and I feel like there are better ways to directly follow the game plot elements. It has gotten its praise over the years, but I always feel like there's something lacking for me. Though to be fair, I hold similar sentiments for the anime as well, so idk if I completely agree with the last part of your statement.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

True, and I feel like there are better ways to directly follow the game plot elements. It has gotten its praise over the years, but I always feel like there's something lacking for me. Though to be fair, I hold similar sentiments for the anime as well, so idk if I completely agree with the last part of your statement.

Well, the anime does follow real life logic better than the games and the manga do in many cases, and Ash is rarely treated as an extraordinary/special Trainer.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Since we are talking about Adventures:
Ash is a much better character than Red in any of his iterations

 

[UglyToast]

Since we are talking about Adventures:
Ash is a much better character than Red in any of his iterations

Yeah, I can agree with that, Red goes to a mountain to train and cuts looses with everyone, meanwhile Ash here making sure his mother is okay.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Well, the anime does follow real life logic better than the games and the manga do in many cases, and Ash is rarely treated as an extraordinary/special Trainer.

Ah, allow me to clarify: I meant that I've held a similar sentiment of something missing for the anime.

I think the world building aspect is fleshed out better and Ash doesn't always seem to fall into those "chosen savior" tropes as much as the protagonists in Adventure (although, it has happened), but I think the anime has been lacking in some aspects for a while now. My opinion of course, but I think an overhaul on how the anime series is approached has been long overdue

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Ah, allow me to clarify: I meant that I've held a similar sentiment of something missing for the anime.

I think the world building aspect is fleshed out better and Ash doesn't always seem to fall into those "chosen savior" tropes as much as the protagonists in Adventure (although, it has happened), but I think the anime has been lacking in some aspects for a while now. My opinion of course, but I think an overhaul on how the anime series is approached has been long overdue

At least the issues we discussed are far less prevalent in the anime. And that's good enough for me.

Since we are talking about Adventures:
Ash is a much better character than Red in any of his iterations

I think Red is fine as a game protagonist, and even as an NPC, but outside the games, yeah, I agree. Especially in terms of Adventures. Ash is much more relatable.

 

[HiroHunter]

It was setup for later in the battle.

And that excuses the first part having bad pacing how?

I didn't feel it was rushed.

Ok how was it not rushed?

It wasn't admiration. It was Ash living together with Kukui and him becoming Ash's father figure.

Thats still not great build up.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Ash vs Kukui was good, but it was hardly the best battle. It relies way too much on flashiness of the Z-Moves to get the "wow factor" at the end.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Ash vs Kukui was good, but it was hardly the best battle.

The thing is, in terms of "the best battle" it is ridiculously subjective. Like, I could just as easily give reasons as to why Ash vs Cameron is the best battle ever and argue why Ash vs Sawyer is the worst battle ever...but that's only because of how broad of a term it is. Like, if you asked which is a better written battle-even then, you have to be more specific in your reasoning, because writing itself is divided into sub-categories. There really is no "best battle". There's just "best" in terms of sub-categories.

For instance, I think the battle that had the best set-up would be Ash vs Paul. But that hardly makes it the best battle.

On another note, while I liked Sun and Moon's pushing of the family theme, at the same time I just...kind of didn't? Like, I really didn't like how they were treating Delia in SM. She was hardly there despite the whole "family" theme-and the idea that Ash got two surrogate "parents" just kind of annoyed me. Why couldn't they just keep Delia in Alola? Like, genuinely, what was stopping the writers??? Seeing single moms and showing how they still make their family work is something I've loved about the pokemon anime: sure, it never really addresses it specifically because it's still a kids show, but the fact that it just shows how much Ash and Delia's little family is complete always spoke to me. Sure, Kukui and Burnet are a cute couple, but when they tried adding Ash to their little family, it just...bugged me. There's nothing wrong with having a surrogate family, of course, but they showed Ash and Burnet having more close moments than he did with his mom in this series centered on the family theme and...that's just dumb. I can't put it in lighter terms. Delia deserved better.

 

[Eitarou]

I disagree on the Delia was hardly there part. SM was some of the most active she'd been in years at that point. She came to visit Ash every so often, even for irrelevant stuff like a school play.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Yeah didn’t Delia also have some nice moments with Ash in M3? Granted that was a while ago, but I still feel like moments like those at least exist.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Yeah didn’t Delia also have some nice moments with Ash in M3? Granted that was a while ago, but I still feel like moments like those at least exist.

I never said those moments didn't exist. I just don't like how they feel so minimal in SM specifically in comparison to Kukui and Burnet. Delia was actually most active in the OS days, being treated as an actual member of the cast and having multiple appearances throughout the series.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Basically a combination of stuff I said yesterday, but I'll say it anyway: the reason why I prefer the Ash and the other anime protagonists to the Adventures protagonists is not just because the latter are prodigies (and thus have less room for character growth), but also because the former are more relatable.

The first episode of the Pokémon anime established Ash as an average kid who dreams big but had no idea how to succeed. With many anime protagonists, it's the opposite: they don't dream big, but succeed anyway because they're special in some way. Again, makes Ash very relatable to the target audience.

 

[Daren]

Basically a combination of stuff I said yesterday, but I'll say it anyway: the reason why I prefer the Ash and the other anime protagonists to the Adventures protagonists is not just because the latter are prodigies (and thus have less room for character growth), but also because the former are more relatable. The first episode of the Pokémon anime established Ash as an average kid who dreams big but had no idea how to succeed. With many anime protagonists, it's the opposite: they don't dream big, but succeed anyway because they're special in some way. Again, makes Ash very relatable to the target audience.

As a kid I didn't really appreciate how different Kanto Ash was for being a very active protagonist (a lot of the protagonists in kids shows are reactive ones who wait for a villain to act then thwart them) and being not very impressive and outright disrespected even by his own friends.
Later series tone this down to varying extents, but one thing that was fairly consistent is avoiding him being what I term a "psuedo underdog" where they're theoretically outgunned by their enemies, but they sure do win pretty much every time anyways.

 

[J Bouken]

Ash vs Kukui was the most satisfying battle and a really strong finale to Sun and Moon.

There are technical things we can pick apart but as a way of concluding several ongoing storylines, giving Kukui a nice send-off and rubber stamping the themes of series, it delivered everything you would have wanted.

When comparing it to other battles, you have to consider the surrounding context. Ash vs Kukui will be remembered fondly because Ash won, when we're so used to him being humbled after a major victory. It's the one major battle in Ash's story that ends completely on a happy, fulfilling note, without the annoying caveat of "but he lost in the next round". For me, this gives it an advantage over Ash vs Paul, for example. While still a spectacular battle in isolation, and satisfying in its own right, it was immediately followed by the anti-climax that was Ash vs Tobias. So instead of coming out of the Sinnoh League happy with the Ash/Paul pay-off, you come away with this bitter disappointment. Ash vs Alain was similar; all that hype and excitement, cut down by the simple fact Ash lost.

Why couldn't they just keep Delia in Alola? Like, genuinely, what was stopping the writers???

It's not an adventure if your mother is always around.

I see where you're coming from, but the theme of family comes across strongly because it's not limited to blood ties. The way Kukui and Burnet basically adopt Ash reflects Alola as a welcoming culture. And from a pure writing perspective, it was more convenient having Ash's surrogate family also be plot relevant characters. I think they would have struggled to keep Delia involved throughout the story.

Besides, Ash and Delia's bond is shown by the level of trust between them. Delia doesn't need to be there because she trusts Ash.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I never said those moments didn't exist. I just don't like how they feel so minimal in SM specifically in comparison to Kukui and Burnet. Delia was actually most active in the OS days, being treated as an actual member of the cast and having multiple appearances throughout the series.

Oh I wasn’t implying that you said the moments didn’t exist. Just that I remember them happening early on.

 

[Unireon]

I'm still glad that Satoshi is different from my favourite type of Main Character: The Fujiko Fujio one, especially Nobita.

But I agree that during Kanto there were some similarities:
He was often ridiculed, mocked and the target to a lot of slapstick. And even labelled as a Loser, by both other characters and viewers.
While this has changed across the generations, even got turned into the standard Shonen Protagonist at full seriousness.
The anime has relapsed with SM, and now Journeys; where they overdo with the goofiness/dumbness, turning him into the comedy relief.

I hope that they never cross the line and make him the Invincible Protagonist, for that we have Gou and is enough.