Controversial opinions

[Enzo]

I believe somebody brought this up once before but it's a lose-lose situation either way. He actually won, but some people say it doesn't count. But if he lost, people will complain that he lost such an easy league.

Yep. I even remember that in those last few days there were some discussions about it in the brazillian fandom because a popular Pokétuber here brought up this again and said that it wasn't a ''real'' win because Alola was an ''easy league'' and wasn't a ''true league'', and boy did I got tired of that fast.

And that's honestly the big problem with Ash's character: he took so long to actually accomplish his goal that it got to the point where everything he accomplished before it gets dismissed: He won the Orange League, helped people and Pokémon multiple times, he won against 45 (!!!!) gym leaders (who, btw, are some of the best battlers of their regions), won against the entire Battle Frontier and even got the invitation to become a Frontier Brain himself, defeated Hunter J once and for all, helped stop Lysander, stopped and helped Necrozma, Lunala and Solgaleo, but people shit on his head simply cuz he didn't managed to win the leagues.

And when he did won a League, people still say that it wasn't a ''true'' league and that it doesn't counts.

Ash literally cannot win at this point.

 

[Daren]

Ash literally cannot win at this point.

There is a 100% chance if he won in Kalos some people wouldn't count it since Ash-Greninja hadn't been introduced in the games yet.

Ash has always had a massive hatedom since the Kanto days.
Honestly? It's actually gotten smaller. You had a lot of people rooting for Paul during DP if you look in the right threads.

Edit: Even moving outside the people who'll hate anything he does after twenty years it was going to be nearly impossible to make the league win feel like a proper payoff. You had people after Kalos saying he shouldn't be allowed to win without reserves, for instance.

Am I happy with how it was a league with no entry requirements and only three on three for the finals? No.
Would I have preferered they put it off another series for the possibility of a better league win in Sword/Shield? No.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

And that's honestly the big problem with Ash's character: he took so long to actually accomplish his goal that it got to the point where everything he accomplished before it gets dismissed: He won the Orange League, helped people and Pokémon multiple times, he won against 45 (!!!!) gym leaders (who, btw, are some of the best battlers of their regions), won against the entire Battle Frontier and even got the invitation to become a Frontier Brain himself, defeated Hunter J once and for all, helped stop Lysander, stopped and helped Necrozma, Lunala and Solgaleo, but people shit on his head simply cuz he didn't managed to win the leagues.

As if his League placements before Alola weren't still quite impressive, especially his Top 4 placement in Sinnoh and his Runner-up placement in Kalos.

 

[Galactic_V]

Yep. I even remember that in those last few days there were some discussions about it in the brazillian fandom because a popular Pokétuber here brought up this again and said that it wasn't a ''real'' win because Alola was an ''easy league'' and wasn't a ''true league'', and boy did I got tired of that fast.

Which one? lol

 

[Enzo]

Which one? lol

C*male*o

 

[Nicolas721]

Some people still haven’t moved on from Greninja, Serena and Alain and I find that weird.

In one hand, people are free to latch onto whatever series they like, some people still love SM and many also had a hard time moving away from DP. But I also can see where are you coming from and those kinds of discussions can become really tiring, specially nowadays as XY had zero impact on everything that came afterwards, in fact those 3 characters will have soon their 5th anniversaries of their goodbyes and none of them has received even a single mention or acknowledgement of their existence in the series.

 

[UglyToast]

This is the same anime where a Pikachu can tie with a Latios at one point but lose to a rookies Snivy. The anime as shown us that it doesn't matter what you done in the past you can still be beaten like everyone else.

But Pikachu had a reason to lose, it lost it's electric type moves and was pretty shocked (no pun intended) that they were failing so it couldn't beat the Snivy, besides ain't Snivy doesn't learn Leaf Tornado (That was the attack it used on the battle If I remember correctly) learns at level 16 and it evolves at the same level?

 

[UglyToast]

Yep. I even remember that in those last few days there were some discussions about it in the brazillian fandom because a popular Pokétuber here brought up this again and said that it wasn't a ''real'' win because Alola was an ''easy league'' and wasn't a ''true league'', and boy did I got tired of that fast.

And that's honestly the big problem with Ash's character: he took so long to actually accomplish his goal that it got to the point where everything he accomplished before it gets dismissed: He won the Orange League, helped people and Pokémon multiple times, he won against 45 (!!!!) gym leaders (who, btw, are some of the best battlers of their regions), won against the entire Battle Frontier and even got the invitation to become a Frontier Brain himself, defeated Hunter J once and for all, helped stop Lysander, stopped and helped Necrozma, Lunala and Solgaleo, but people shit on his head simply cuz he didn't managed to win the leagues.

And when he did won a League, people still say that it wasn't a ''true'' league and that it doesn't counts.

Ash literally cannot win at this point.

I guess these are the same peoples who is saying Red is a better trainer than Ash because he develops as fast as speed of light.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

While it is true that some people take their obsession with XYZ too far, to the point that Alola tends to be hated just because it ended up being the series that gave Ash his first canon-to-games win, and some people find it oh so blasphemous that something so silly and lighthearted did what the "cool and srs and badass" XYZ didn't do, I think it's somewhat understandable when you take a look at the context and circumstances: XYZ at one point seemed to heavily imply that Ash would win the League this time what with all the hype Ash-Greninja got, the fact that Ash's final opponent was the rival he never beat (which are always overcome at the end; League kickers are fought literally just at that fated match), and the fact that episode titles and advertisements made such a big deal of this particular League battle... only for Ash to still lose in the end, making it seem that all that buildup was completely wasted. Other Leagues by contrast had a much bigger sense of closure:

• Kanto was literally the first League, so no way Ash was gonna win that, and while the way he lost was pretty dang contrived, it did at least result in Ash finally shaping up and actually take training seriously so he could rely on his own skill rather than dumb luck
• Johto had Ash finally beating his lifelong rival Gary, setting the standard for numerous future regional rivalries to come, and while he did lose at the Top 8, his opponent Harrison was a genuinely skilled trainer and Ash still came within a hairs' breath of winning (plus, Charizard roughed up Blaziken severely enough that Harrison couldn't use it in the next round, resulting in his own loss)
• Hoenn lacked a recurring Gary-esque rival for Ash, but it was similar to Johto in that the trainer Ash lost to was someone ultimately older and more experienced, and again, Ash very nearly won too. Plus, this time the trainer Ash lost to actually won the League, so no shame
• Sinnoh had the beautifully cathartic conclusion to Infernape's arc, and while Tobias was a completely bogus opponent, losing against two minor deities is nothing to be ashamed of, especially when Ash did better against Tobias than Tobias's next opponent did, meaning Ash is effectively the true runner-up
• Even Unova has the advantage over Kalos in that literally nobody was expecting Ash to win the League: I remember how even when BW was just starting people were already making speculations on which character would end up being the League kicker this time around (Cheren and N being perhaps the two most popular guesses), and the anger at the Unova League has far less to do with the fact that Ash lost and more with just how and to who he lost

By contrast, Kalos seemingly had set the stage for Ash to win only for the rug to be pulled out from under his feet, and of course that's going to leave people rather bitter. And beating Sawyer is far less of a satisfying consolation prize than beating past rivals because he's someone Ash had already beaten many times before and only lost to once. Meanwhile, saving Kalos from Team Flare is marred by the fact that it ended in Greninja's release.

 

[J Bouken]

That people can still talk about older seasons should be a sign that season made an impact on viewers. Regurgitated discourse is tiring but at the same time, at least we still talk about XY. Nobody talks about Johto or AG. Especially AG.

AG is nearly 20 years old I'm not ready to accept this

Edit: Even moving outside the people who'll hate anything he does after twenty years it was going to be nearly impossible to make the league win feel like a proper payoff. You had people after Kalos saying he shouldn't be allowed to win without reserves, for instance.

It became too built-up to ever be satisfying. A lot of people were literally only watching to see Ash win and I think such hyper-fixation actively hurt their enjoyment, because nothing really seemed good enough. The pay-off had to be orgasmic or else.

It's one of those things where parts of the fandom fell out of step with what the show was trying to do. I remember a lot of discussion about the ongoing journey of Ash from OS through to DP, and how there was steady progression towards some kind of end goal. The expectation became for each new season to be a progression on the previous season, until Best Wishes came along and made is perfectly clear the show was never meant to be watched that way. Ash's adventures are designed to be connected but also self-contained, so they can continue forever. Three guesses what the most detested season of the anime is.

I guess these are the same peoples who is saying Red is a better trainer than Ash because he develops as fast as speed of light.

It's about competence, or the perception of it.

A common reason for liking characters is how competent they are. For a long time, Red was considered the pinnacle of Pokemon characters because he was the Champion, the super boss of the beloved G/S/C games, with all the fully-evolved and cool Pokemon. By comparison, Ash was often incompetent, didn't evolve all his Pokemon, couldn't get the big wins and so on.

You'll notice that whenever Ash does something stupid (in or out of battle), there's always a strong negative reaction. Perceived incompetence can be a real turn off for some viewers.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

While it is true that some people take their obsession with XYZ too far, to the point that Alola tends to be hated just because it ended up being the series that gave Ash his first canon-to-games win, and some people find it oh so blasphemous that something so silly and lighthearted did what the "cool and srs and badass" XYZ didn't do, I think it's somewhat understandable when you take a look at the context and circumstances: XYZ at one point seemed to heavily imply that Ash would win the League this time what with all the hype Ash-Greninja got, the fact that Ash's final opponent was the rival he never beat (which are always overcome at the end; League kickers are fought literally just at that fated match), and the fact that episode titles and advertisements made such a big deal of this particular League battle... only for Ash to still lose in the end, making it seem that all that buildup was completely wasted.

Like how Sinnoh League's main goal was for Ash to beat Paul and redeem Infernape in Paul's eyes, I think Kalos's main goal wasn't as much to make Ash win the League, as it was for Greninja to fulfill its ultra super special shonen-style destiny and stop the grand foretold disaster.

(plus, Charizard roughed up Blaziken severely enough that Harrison couldn't use it in the next round, resulting in his own loss)

Plus, this time the trainer Ash lost to actually won the League, so no shame

I actually prefer Harrison over Tyson partly because of this (plus the fact that it's much more believable to see him lose to a Blaziken rather than a Puss in Boots).

A common reason for liking characters is how competent they are. For a long time, Red was considered the pinnacle of Pokemon characters because he was the Champion, the super boss of the beloved G/S/C games, with all the fully-evolved and cool Pokemon. By comparison, Ash was often incompetent, didn't evolve all his Pokemon, couldn't get the big wins and so on.

Comparing Ash to Red has always seemed unfair to me, given that they're both from different canons with different rules and settings.

You'll notice that whenever Ash does something stupid (in or out of battle), there's always a strong negative reaction. Perceived incompetence can be a real turn off for some viewers.

This reminds me a lot of what Suede tends to say during Suede's Pokémon Journey, and why he hates Ash's first Indigo League match so much: Ash is arrogant and unbelievably stubborn throughout the whole episode, and sends out a completely inexperienced Pokémon to an important battle, regardless of his friends' warnings, and then ends up winning with a landslide through sheer luck (for example, he hated how Krabby just spontaneously managed to escape from a whirlpool without explanation and then conveniently learning Hyper Beam upon evolving to one-shot its final opponent in the match), without experiencing any repercussions for his arrogance.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

People don't read this series for the Pokemon; they read it for the humans. I feel I should point out that there's nothing wrong with that; the games basically exclusively focus on the humans as well.

I never said that there was anything wrong with liking Pokespe for the humans, just that I feel like the Pokemon themselves are too bland. Also, yes, the games focus on humans too, but that is in itself largely mitigated by the fact that it's an interactive medium, meaning the audience gets to form a direct connection with their own Pokemon themselves, and that's obviously something that's going to be lost in a non-interactive format.

Like how Sinnoh League's main goal was for Ash to beat Paul and redeem Infernape in Paul's eyes, I think Kalos's main goal wasn't as much to make Ash win the League, as it was for Greninja to fulfill its ultra super special shonen-style destiny and stop the grand foretold disaster.

Yes, I get that. But the thing is that to a general audience that much wasn't as obvious if only because there was significantly less buildup for the disaster than there was for the League itself. So yeah, I can't blame people for not really noticing.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Ash is arrogant and unbelievably stubborn throughout the whole episode, and sends out a completely inexperienced Pokémon to an important battle, regardless of his friends' warnings, and then ends up winning through sheer luck

...wasn't that sort of the point, though? It was the biggest sign that Ash hadn't learned much throughout his Kanto journey, which was a major wake-up call for him. Hence, the first episode of OI where we see him thanking everyone at a party. That was a major point for Ash's character arc.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

...wasn't that sort of the point, though? It was the biggest sign that Ash hadn't learned much throughout his Kanto journey, which was a major wake-up call for him. Hence, the first episode of OI where we see him thanking everyone at a party. That was a major point for Ash's character arc.

That was what Suede said. He just disliked Ash not getting any repercussions for his arrogance in that episode. Even in the horribly paced "Fire and Ice", Ash gets called out on his irresponsible behavior more than in "Round One - Begin!".

 

[Unireon]

I only wanted Satoshi to win the League twice. During DP and XY.
Regarding the use of Reserves, he should have called some for the latter....
And I wish he did, at least to avoid the embarrassments that Onvern and Numerugon were.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Maybe if SM didn’t exist and we immediately moved to PWC after XY then I could’ve seen Ash win in kalos.

That would make perfect sense to have the PWC right after XYZ. SM shouldn’t even have existed. It ruined everything.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

While it is true that some people take their obsession with XYZ too far, to the point that Alola tends to be hated just because it ended up being the series that gave Ash his first canon-to-games win, and some people find it oh so blasphemous that something so silly and lighthearted did what the "cool and srs and badass" XYZ didn't do, I think it's somewhat understandable when you take a look at the context and circumstances: XYZ at one point seemed to heavily imply that Ash would win the League this time what with all the hype Ash-Greninja got, the fact that Ash's final opponent was the rival he never beat (which are always overcome at the end; League kickers are fought literally just at that fated match), and the fact that episode titles and advertisements made such a big deal of this particular League battle... only for Ash to still lose in the end, making it seem that all that buildup was completely wasted. Other Leagues by contrast had a much bigger sense of closure:

• Kanto was literally the first League, so no way Ash was gonna win that, and while the way he lost was pretty dang contrived, it did at least result in Ash finally shaping up and actually take training seriously so he could rely on his own skill rather than dumb luck
• Johto had Ash finally beating his lifelong rival Gary, setting the standard for numerous future regional rivalries to come, and while he did lose at the Top 8, his opponent Harrison was a genuinely skilled trainer and Ash still came within a hairs' breath of winning (plus, Charizard roughed up Blaziken severely enough that Harrison couldn't use it in the next round, resulting in his own loss)
• Hoenn lacked a recurring Gary-esque rival for Ash, but it was similar to Johto in that the trainer Ash lost to was someone ultimately older and more experienced, and again, Ash very nearly won too. Plus, this time the trainer Ash lost to actually won the League, so no shame
• Sinnoh had the beautifully cathartic conclusion to Infernape's arc, and while Tobias was a completely bogus opponent, losing against two minor deities is nothing to be ashamed of, especially when Ash did better against Tobias than Tobias's next opponent did, meaning Ash is effectively the true runner-up
• Even Unova has the advantage over Kalos in that literally nobody was expecting Ash to win the League: I remember how even when BW was just starting people were already making speculations on which character would end up being the League kicker this time around (Cheren and N being perhaps the two most popular guesses), and the anger at the Unova League has far less to do with the fact that Ash lost and more with just how and to who he lost

By contrast, Kalos seemingly had set the stage for Ash to win only for the rug to be pulled out from under his feet, and of course that's going to leave people rather bitter. And beating Sawyer is far less of a satisfying consolation prize than beating past rivals because he's someone Ash had already beaten many times before and only lost to once. Meanwhile, saving Kalos from Team Flare is marred by the fact that it ended in Greninja's release.

THANK YOU! This is what I’ve been saying all along. To be Ash-Greninja is wasted because it failed to win a league AND it got released. And he never got to beat Alain!

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

That would make perfect sense to have the PWC right after XYZ. SM shouldn’t even have existed. It ruined everything.

That's an extreme exaggeration to make. Honestly, I'd argue that the reason why the series took a dip in quality can be traced back to BW. BW and SM had really bad writing as a whole, but JN somehow took that and made it worse. XY is arguably the only white sheep in the mix, but the ridiculousness of the controversies surrounding the series make it hard to look underneath the surface for XY: and as a result, people miss a lot of good and bad stuff.

Notice how OS-DP garners the least controversy amongst the Pokemon fandom? That's because each series can be watched both separately and as a cohesive whole without garnering too much confusion or irritation amongst fans. Unlike BW, which had a huge inexplicable reset on Ash's character arc...unlike XY, which divided the fandom to absurd amounts...unlike SM, which was when the writing was messy and the fandom became even more ridiculously divided...and unlike JN, which garners cohesive hate and has barely any fans.

 

[FluffleFi]

I actually prefer Harrison over Tyson partly because of this (plus the fact that it's much more believable to see him lose to a Blaziken rather than a Puss in Boots).

You know i've seen people complain about this loss before and I just wanna ask why. I haven't seen the episode since it first aired all those years ago so i'm probably missing a lot of context, so feel free to correct me. But what's wrong with it? This whole series we've seen Ash's Pikachu beat opponents it had no business beating; From pseudo-legends to actual legendaries, so what's wrong with someone else with an un-evolved Pokemon being powerful? If anything i'd love to see more of league trainers show up with first or second-staged Pokemon since its kind of odd that Ash seems to be the only one who does. Cameron had a Riolu but it ended up evolving mid-battle and Virgil used an Eevee but he didn't even battle Ash.

 

[Hidden Mew]

That would make perfect sense to have the PWC right after XYZ. SM shouldn’t even have existed. It ruined everything.

That seems a bit much. I can understand not liking SM, but to say that the series shouldn't even exist and that it ruined everything just seems too much of an exaggeration. Not to mention it seems a bit rude for people who did enjoy the series.

Honestly, I was never really bothered with Greninja's release itself. I thought that it worked and was an emotional sendoff. The problem really came down to how it didn't get a chance to finally defeat Alain like they were seemingly building up to. If Ash-Greninja had been able to defeat Mega Charizard X in or out of the Kalos League, then I don't think its release would have been as upsetting for fans. It would have had a better sense of closure before leaving the cast.