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Controversial opinions

I think you misunderstood the root of Snivy's empathy. Snivy sympathized with Tepig because Tepig's trainer was a horrible person, not necessarily because she was also abandoned. It's never directly stated, but it is heavily implied that Snivy abandoned her trainer because they were also a jerk. It's just that Snivy reacted to her abuse differently (i.e. by running away), so I wouldn't call it hypocrisy.
I still feel like everything about this was a huge lost opportunity. Snivy was very stagnant in BW and could have used some development. They had it right there laid out, but they chose to ignore it instead of developing Snivy further.
 
I still feel like everything about this was a huge lost opportunity. Snivy was very stagnant in BW and could have used some development. They had it right there laid out, but they chose to ignore it instead of developing Snivy further.
Could've been a heart-warming episode if they actually did anything with her backstory. Like, Ash and Co. meet Snivy's trainer, who could've realized why their starter left and was trying to become more kind, but struggled to change their ways. A whole episode dedicated to trying to make this trainer a lot more kindly and generous, ending with Ash wondering if Snivy would return to them only for said trainer to ultimately decide she's in much better hands with Ash.
 
Yeah, Leon's in Masters. It's just that Leon joins after he was beaten by the SWSH protagonist, so he's no longer the undefeated champion.
Wait, but then doesn't that mean Masters takes place before GSC/HGSS or did Gold/Ethan fail to beat Red? That's an anticlimactic way to end the game...
 
I still feel like everything about this was a huge lost opportunity. Snivy was very stagnant in BW and could have used some development. They had it right there laid out, but they chose to ignore it instead of developing Snivy further.
Snivy also kept the same four moves for the entirety of the series. The writers clearly didn't know which of Ash's Pokémon to prioritise so they ended up shafting all but three: Pikachu, Pignite and Krookodile.
 
Wait, but then doesn't that mean Masters takes place before GSC/HGSS or did Gold/Ethan fail to beat Red? That's an anticlimactic way to end the game...
I'd say that Masters exist in its own little universe rather than part of the continuity of the main series. The characters obviously refer to events from different generations all the time, but it's hard to really put a lot of stock into a gotcha mobile game as far as continuity goes.
 
Wait, but then doesn't that mean Masters takes place before GSC/HGSS or did Gold/Ethan fail to beat Red? That's an anticlimactic way to end the game...
My take is that the characters come form different points of their stories.
With only some that share both continuity and time of origin.

Regarding Tsutaaja, I think that they messed up her development.
It should have been her that evolved instead of Pokabu, the latter was a rehash.
 
My take is that the characters come form different points of their stories.
With only some that share both continuity and time of origin.

Regarding Tsutaaja, I think that they messed up her development.
It should have been her that evolved instead of Pokabu, the latter was a rehash.
Yea I’m pretty sure that’s the lore of the game that they were brought there by Hoopa from different points in time as well as dimensions, hence how characters like Lyra and Crystal can exist at the same time as well as why Red and Blue are teens despite the Alola cast being there.
 
Am I remembering wrong or didn't Snivy leave her trainer, because she thought they were weak and unworthy? I don't think it's been mentioned that she was abused like Tepig was, she just wanted to be with a strong trainer. In fact, her entire capture episode is based on her testing Ash.
Yup she left because she said their past trainer was weak. I honestly wish the show focused on this, especially for the trainers perspective. I can't imagine raising a starter and then it decides to suddenly abandon you. That has to hurt. But the show only focuses on the pokemon getting abandoned.

It's also weird because how bad could her past trainer be, that she sees BW ash a better trainer for her. The ash with that infamous Elisa battle, that lost to Cameron, that forgot attracts doesn't work on the same gender. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like bw ash. But he definitely wasn't the best battling wise. So I want to see how awful her previous trainer was lol
 
Am I remembering wrong or didn't Snivy leave her trainer, because she thought they were weak and unworthy? I don't think it's been mentioned that she was abused like Tepig was, she just wanted to be with a strong trainer. In fact, her entire capture episode is based on her testing Ash.
Yup she left because she said their past trainer was weak. I honestly wish the show focused on this, especially for the trainers perspective. I can't imagine raising a starter and then it decides to suddenly abandon you. That has to hurt. But the show only focuses on the pokemon getting abandoned.

It's also weird because how bad could her past trainer be, that she sees BW ash a better trainer for her. The ash with that infamous Elisa battle, that lost to Cameron, that forgot attracts doesn't work on the same gender. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like bw ash. But he definitely wasn't the best battling wise. So I want to see how awful her previous trainer was lol
I think the characters stating that Snivy abandoned her trainer for being weak was them speculating. The worthless part is true, though (I think Meowth outright confirmed this via translation), but then what Snivy would mean by "worthless" is probably more along the lines of "our trainers didn't deserve us anyway if they didn't even appreciate us". Remember that Snivy also had a pretty strong reaction to seeing Ash shield Pikachu from one of her attacks back when she was a wild Pokemon, meaning that her acceptance of Ash is more grounded on his compassion than his skill.
 
I think the characters stating that Snivy abandoned her trainer for being weak was them speculating. The worthless part is true, though (I think Meowth outright confirmed this via translation), but then what Snivy would mean by "worthless" is probably more along the lines of "our trainers didn't deserve us anyway if they didn't even appreciate us". Remember that Snivy also had a pretty strong reaction to seeing Ash shield Pikachu from one of her attacks back when she was a wild Pokemon, meaning that her acceptance of Ash is more grounded on his compassion than his skill.
Yeah you make a good point. Overall this just proves snivy was wasted potential. Honestly kinda wish they gave her prideful personality to unfezant. Considering she is the "proud pokemon".
 
I remember that era well. Early Pokémon fandom in general could be a trip. Large swathes of the fandom acted like Ash was supposed to be the worst trainer in the world (and game-only fans often still do, like that meme "explaining" that Ash is actually based off Youngster Joey rather than Red, who the fanbase sometimes treats like Aragorn or Superman) and all his wins don't count for whatever convenient reason they could dig up, and it was like that at least until the end of DP.

Hehahahahaha! You know, the thing I like to do (and have no regrets ever doing) for trolling was directly refer Red as Ash. It's quite fun, really. To see them going into the same old tired justification of how Red is totally different from Ash, doing the typical comparisons. And I just simply point out that Ash is from Pallet Town, his rival is Oak's grandson, and his design is unmistakably based on Red. And when they try to play double standards with Pokémon Adventures... Oh that's where the fun really starts. A friend here once showed me the various incarnations of Red across Pokémon history, and I learn from him on how to deal with Ash-Red debates. Which Red are we talking about?

More reasons as to why I hate Red, cause I doubt most kids these days are gonna know who he is. GameFreak themselves like to hype the hell out him like when they aged him up and brought him back in the Sun and Moon games, or Pokemon Masters(god damn does Masters hype him up, people on the other side of the world can hear them kissing his ass). So its really only adults who A: Follow the trend of hating on Ash cause 'lol funny', or B: People who seriously can't tell that the anime and games are different. Some things, like levels and stats, just don't carry over into a more realistic adaptation. Goh's trying to 'catch them all' like people wanted Ash to do, but look how abysmal that is, most of the Pokemon he catches are just background props with next to know personalities. And I bet if Ash was the type to force his Pokemon to evolve, those very same people would be calling him cruel.
I don't know who in GameFreak decided to redesign Red in Gen III, but I'll never forgive that decision to make Red go from a clear-cut Japanese kid with a smirk on his face to a culturally odorlessness (I seriously can't tell if he's supposed to be Japanese or American), frowning pre-teenager (or maybe early teen). And then they continued it with Sun & Moon making him an adult but still frowning. And no words. He's not badass-looking, he's boring and generic.

You know it's bad when Adventures Red looks nice in FRLG outfit but not game Red himself... And Leon feels more like Red from the original artwork than modern adult Red himself on the account that Leon actually has emotions beyond that blank BOTW Link stare (which is one of the reasons why I am not hyped about BOTW2 unless they have Playable Princess Zelda).

I'm mostly neutral to Red himself (he's just a player avatar in R/B/Y and has zero characterization in G/S/C--he might be more interesting in some of the manga) but I do find his cult-like worship another oddity I just don't see in other game fandoms towards their primary/first protagonist.

I believe that cult worship came from insecurity. Insecurity that the main protagonist of the anime they grew up with is not a perfect trainer or person. Insecurity that they are like Ash, unable to win most of the Leagues because the competition is stiff and life can be unfair. So they latch on to a character they can control and make up facts without concern. That happened to be Red, and I think it's because Red resembles Ash that he, not Gold/Ethan, became this memetic badass despite having a team that can be half-demolished by a Rock/Ground-Type.

It's rather funny, really, because Ash has slowly but surely been climbing up the ranks and now look at him. A wielder of G-Max, Z-Moves, and Mega Evolution ready to enter the Master Class... and at the ripe age of 10. And Champion of Alola. Oh, it's getting harder and harder to dismiss Ash now since XY. I even noted on TV Tropes that these memes of Ash being a loser is becoming a discredited meme. Now if only they had a multiversal crossover where Ash meets Red... and it's confirmed once and for all that Red is just Ash with a different name (and slightly different look).
 
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It's rather funny, really, because Ash has slowly but surely been climbing up the ranks and now look at him. A wielder of G-Max, Z-Moves, and Mega Evolution ready to enter the Master Class... and at the ripe age of 10. And Champion of Alola. Oh, it's getting harder and harder to dismiss Ash now since XY. I even noted on TV Tropes that these memes of Ash being a loser is becoming a discredited meme. Now if only they had a multiversal crossover where Ash meets Red... and it's confirmed once and for all that Red is just Ash with a different name (and slightly different look).
Just to drive the point home about how much the "Red rulz Ash droolz" meme is losing traction, there was a recent thread in the Pokemon anime subreddit asking the question of who would win a Pokemon Battle between Ash or Red, and nearly everyone in the responses agreed that these days Ash would beat Red or at least most incarnations of him, with some (like Origins Red for example) even getting absolutely destroyed. Granted, there may have been some bias influencing the responses, since it was the anime subreddit (I get the feeling that the general Pokemon subreddit would be singing a different tune entirely), but only a few years ago it was hard to find people defending Ash over Red even among the most ardent Pokemon anime fans, at least as far as the "who is the better trainer" debates went; defences of Ash did exist but nearly all of them were centered around pointing out that Ash has an actual personality whereas Red does not. The fact that Ash support is getting steadily more vocal among the fanbase speaks volumes.
 
I genuinely never understand how people could come to a definite conclusion in a hypothetical scenario of Ash battling Red. I mean, there is no specific pattern in the anime in the first place. Ash most of the time just... randomly wins or loses. Before it took place, who would say Ash loses to, of all people, Cameron, especially in a battle he lacks a sixth Pokémon. Until the last second Greninja falling on the ground, there is no telling if it would be Ash or Alain who would come to victor. If you take the last seconds out, the battle very realistically could end up with all three options; either side's win or a draw. So I am at loss to see how people can evaluate and decide on a winner in such loose terms.
 
I genuinely never understand how people could come to a definite conclusion in a hypothetical scenario of Ash battling Red. I mean, there is no specific pattern in the anime in the first place. Ash most of the time just... randomly wins or loses. Before it took place, who would say Ash loses to, of all people, Cameron, especially in a battle he lacks a sixth Pokémon. Until the last second Greninja falling on the ground, there is no telling if it would be Ash or Alain who would come to victor. If you take the last seconds out, the battle very realistically could end up with all three options; either side's win or a draw. So I am at loss to see how people can evaluate and decide on a winner in such loose terms.
Well, I'm far from an expert at these things myself, but the general gist of it (and of pretty much any "who would win in a fight between Character X and Character Y?" type of discussions) is that stuff like Plot Armor is disregarded entirely and people analyze only the raw skills and feats of each character and how consistent their overal performances are, meaning things like the loss to Cameron (which was 100% a Plot Armor win on Cameron's favor) wouldn't be a factor. Of course, this means that Game!Red should be almost entirely discarded from the debates, since as a player avatar pretty much all of his feats are Plot Armor-based, and yet that version of Red is the most cited example when comparing Ash unfavorably to him, so what do I know, lol.
 
Just to drive the point home about how much the "Red rulz Ash droolz" meme is losing traction, there was a recent thread in the Pokemon anime subreddit asking the question of who would win a Pokemon Battle between Ash or Red, and nearly everyone in the responses agreed that these days Ash would beat Red or at least most incarnations of him, with some (like Origins Red for example) even getting absolutely destroyed. Granted, there may have been some bias influencing the responses, since it was the anime subreddit (I get the feeling that the general Pokemon subreddit would be singing a different tune entirely), but only a few years ago it was hard to find people defending Ash over Red even among the most ardent Pokemon anime fans, at least as far as the "who is the better trainer" debates went; defences of Ash did exist but nearly all of them were centered around pointing out that Ash has an actual personality whereas Red does not. The fact that Ash support is getting steadily more vocal among the fanbase speaks volumes.

The pushback ironically began with Pokémon Origins and Pokémon the Series: XY. Origins gave us Red as the protagonist, like so many of these fans wanted, only to show that Red is pretty much like Ash (naive, dumb and overly energetic). Oh sure, those fans would love to point out that Red won the Pokémon League and has Mega Charizard X and Mewtwo... but that's when XY came. It brought two things: 1) Battle Animation akin to Origins (i.e. no background) and 2) A more badass and competent Ash who finally gets respect from his peers.

And Sun & Moon and Journeys ensured that continuity and reputation continue to build off what XY started, which ironically put Ash in a position that no other player could ever hope to get thanks to a few restrictions imposed by Gen VIII, having all three gimmicks of the past 3 Gens at once.

But if I have to be honest... I'm not interested in seeing Ash fighting Red these days. It's too predictable and I can't pick a winner without being accused of being bias.

No, I would have them interact like long-lost twins or dimensional counterparts. It's more fun to point out the similarities just to troll people, especially GameFreak, for those years of separating Ash and Red from each other.
 
I never viewed Red as "Badass" in comparison to Ash. Heck even in comparison to other player characters he isn't badass as all of them have more impressive feats then Red... except for Chase and Elaine. Those two are just lame.
 
I know this is a "let's wait and see" sort of deal, and well, I know this might sound a bit hypocritical coming from me as I'm a guy who often says that I'm happy (for the most part) that the anime refuses to limit itself to be a 1:1 of the games, but I gotta say...

So is this how Raihan reacts to losing to Leon when no one's around?
IMG_20220423_145202.jpg
Am I the only one who finds this,,, kinda of weird?

I'm sorry, but the fact that the anime is making Raihan out to be the type of guy to hit a wall so strongly it leaves a huge dent out of frustation is absolutely A Choice and,,, I'm really not thrilled with it, and frankly, I'm scared they might not handle this well.

So you're telling me the "gentle, chill giant dude" ~secretly~ has a powerful, reactive, aggresive and dangerous response if he doesn't gets his way???

I,,, don't know about this one chief.
 
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