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Controversial opinions

SlyGecko

Lover of lizard Pokemon
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I never viewed Red as "Badass" in comparison to Ash. Heck even in comparison to other player characters he isn't badass as all of them have more impressive feats then Red... except for Chase and Elaine. Those two are just lame.
 

Enzo

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I know this is a "let's wait and see" sort of deal, and well, I know this might sound a bit hypocritical coming from me as I'm a guy who often says that I'm happy (for the most part) that the anime refuses to limit itself to be a 1:1 of the games, but I gotta say...

So is this how Raihan reacts to losing to Leon when no one's around?
IMG_20220423_145202.jpg
Am I the only one who finds this,,, kinda of weird?

I'm sorry, but the fact that the anime is making Raihan out to be the type of guy to hit a wall so strongly it leaves a huge dent out of frustation is absolutely A Choice and,,, I'm really not thrilled with it, and frankly, I'm scared they might not handle this well.

So you're telling me the "gentle, chill giant dude" ~secretly~ has a powerful, reactive, aggresive and dangerous response if he doesn't gets his way???

I,,, don't know about this one chief.
 

Enzo

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They’ve been at this dance for who knows how long, it’s only natural that Raihan will crack every once in a while.
Well, yeah, make sense, I guess.

But ngl, it IS weird imo that they are making Raihan to have this sort of "secret violent side" if he gets frustated enough.

Again, we should wait and see, but this seems a bit too... "tricky" (not sure if this is 100% the word I'm looking for) of a plot point. Just hope they handle this well, but considering it's the JN writing team we're talking about, I'm pretty scared.
 

A Wild Luxray

Hear me roar!
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I know this is a "let's wait and see" sort of deal, and well, I know this might sound a bit hypocritical coming from me as I'm a guy who often says that I'm happy (for the most part) that the anime refuses to limit itself to be a 1:1 of the games, but I gotta say...

So is this how Raihan reacts to losing to Leon when no one's around?
Am I the only one who finds this,,, kinda of weird?

I'm sorry, but the fact that the anime is making Raihan out to be the type of guy to hit a wall so strongly it leaves a huge dent out of frustation is absolutely A Choice and,,, I'm really not thrilled with it, and frankly, I'm scared they might not handle this well.

So you're telling me the "gentle, chill giant dude" ~secretly~ has a powerful, reactive, aggresive and dangerous response if he doesn't gets his way???

I,,, don't know about this one chief.
It reminds me of Guzma. I think he does something similar in the manga when he loses. Its surprising to see it coming from Raihan though.
 
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Well, yeah, make sense, I guess.

But ngl, it IS weird imo that they are making Raihan to have this sort of "secret violent side" if he gets frustated enough.

Again, we should wait and see, but this seems a bit too... "tricky" (not sure if this is 100% the word I'm looking for) of a plot point. Just hope they handle this well, but considering it's the JN writing team we're talking about, I'm pretty scared.
Well yes, I suppose it’s not the healthiest way to teach kids how to deal with pent up frustration, but we’ll see. Perharps a more “achievable” battle with Ash can remind him that he isn’t a pushover, he’s just aiming higher than most.

If anything I’m concerned about his knuckles, holy fuck that dent is big.
 

Weddingbells

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Well yes, I suppose it’s not the healthiest way to teach kids how to deal with pent up frustration, but we’ll see. Perharps a more “achievable” battle with Ash can remind him that he isn’t a pushover, he’s just aiming higher than most.

If anything I’m concerned about his knuckles, holy fuck that dent is big.
Honestly I like it. The show depicting it isn't the same as condoning it.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

8/18: Never forget what they took away from us
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Ash’s Lucario is written more statisfactily than Greninja. No I am not a Greninja hater, Greninja was done more dirty than Torterra, Torkoal, and Noivern combined.
 

CharizardFan7

Though I'm also a Blaziken fan
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Ash’s Lucario is written more statisfactily than Greninja. No I am not a Greninja hater, Greninja was done more dirty than Torterra, Torkoal, and Noivern combined.
Hey, at least Greninja and Torterra got important wins in different stages of their respective evolutionary lines.

Torterra as a Turtwig beat Roark's Rampardos twice, once as a Cranidos, then again after it had evolved into Rampardos. Not to mention he beat Gardenia's own Turtwig which had previously defeated Staravia, a Flying type, twice. (Granted, it had also been weakened by Staravia, but still.) He also beat a couple of other opponents as Turtwig as well, like Reggie's Bibarel and that random Black Belt's Zangoose in the Hearthome Tag Battle Competition. As a Grotle, it beat Candice's Sneasel, and gave Palmer's Rhyperior (who was probably E4 at least, or possibly even champion level,) a very difficult time even if he ultimately lost. It's win rate as Grotle and Turtwig really wasn't that bad. It's only Torterra's win rate people focus on the most sadly, because it was the most recent. Admittedly, Torterra's win rate after reaching its final form was awful, but blame that on a certain fire monkey morre than anything else.

As for Greninja, do I even have to say it? It won many, many battles over its tenure on the show. It didn't win too much as a Froakie, but then it didn't battle too much as a Froakie either. Grant's Onix is the win that sticks out to me though. And as a Frogadier, it was nigh unstoppable. In fact, it never lost in that stage. Not even once. And it beat a myriad of opponents, too, like Sawyer's Grovyle twice, as both Treecko and Grovyle, Olymipia's (male) Meowstic, Ramos's Weepinbell and his Gogoat. Oh yeah, and Carrie's Sabeleye too. (I liked how Water Pulse was basically his signature finisher as a Frogadier, particularly against Grovyle and Gogoat.) And with Greninja, well, we all know Greninja's wins (and unfortunately his losses, especially one in particular. :mad:) I'll admit, Greninja losing to Charizard in the final battle after fighting it twice before and never managing a win was a terrible decision on the part of the writers, one which I think they would live to regret. (Blame my favorite Pokemon for being too cool for its own good I guess. :confused_emoji:) Ash definitely should have won in Kalos, I wholeheartedly agree with you there. But to say Greninja got done dirty, or even Torterra overall, feels like everybody overly focusing on the outcomes of the battles which they lost, instead of all the times they actually won, and there were quite a few. They weren't bad Pokemon by any means overall.

But poor Noivern and Torkoal, on the other hand, eeeesh. :oops: They........didn't really get much in the way of wins, did they? I mean Torkoal did beat Norman's Slakoth and Tyson's Shiftry, buuuuut then promptly lost in a single hit each to Vigoroth and Hariyama, respectively. It did return later and battled valiantly against Brandon's Registeel, doing quite well against a literal Legendary Pokemon, though it eventually lost even with a type-advantage. Then it returned in the Sinnoh League to essentially.......get maimed by Darkrai in, again, a single hit. (Poor Torkoal, why did the writers have it go down in one hit soooo often?) Oh, and I forgot the obligatory win Torkoal got against Steelix in its debut episode......but it wasn't even Ash's then.......so does that even count?

But all of this, all of it, is nothing compared to the treatment poor Noivern, a literal fully-evolved Dragon type Pokemon, got. It didn't battle at all really as a Noibat, only very briefly against Drapion and Breloom and really only one Tackle apiece. Then it evolved, and seemed to hold its own against Zapdos, I still remember how excited everyone was about that, as we all eagerly awaited Noivern's future. Unfortunately...........the writers decided to screw Noivern over, big time. I mean, its very first trainer battle after evolving it lost. Which.....would turn out to sadly be a sign of things to come. I mean, it beat Doublade (with Dragon Claw and Acrobatics, somehow, against an Iron Defencing Doublade of all things, but ehhh.....I'll chalk it up to critical hits,) but then lost to Clawitzer shortly after. I will admit, tying with a Salamence is quite impressive, especially given Noivern's overall lack of battle experience, but sadly that would turn out to be the best Noivern would get post-Doublade. Because after that draw, it lost to Weavile and Mega Gyarados. Hell, it lost three times and won just once. If that's not getting done dirty, especially for a Dragon type, I don't know what is. So yeah, Noivern takes the cake overall I think.
 
Last edited:

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

8/18: Never forget what they took away from us
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Hey, at least Greninja and Torterra got important wins in different stages of their respective evolutionary lines.

Torterra as a Turtwig beat Roark's Rampardos twice, once as a Cranidos, then again after it had evolved into Rampardos. Not to mention he beat Gardenia's own Turtwig which had previously defeated Staravia, a Flying type, twice. (Granted, it had also been weakened by Staravia, but still.) He also beat a couple of other opponents as Turtwig as well, like Reggie's Bibarel and that random Black Belt's Zangoose in the Hearthome Tag Battle Competition. As a Grotle, it beat Candice's Sneasel, and gave Palmer's Rhyperior (who was probably E4 at least, or possibly even champion level,) a very difficult time even if he ultimately lost. It's win rate as Grotle and Turtwig really wasn't that bad. It's only Torterra's win rate people focus on the most sadly, because it was the most recent. Admittedly, Torterra's win rate after reaching its final form was awful, but blame that on a certain fire monkey morre than anything else.

As for Greninja, do I even have to say it? It won many, many battles over its tenure on the show. It didn't win too much as a Froakie, but then it didn't battle too much as a Froakie either. Grant's Onix is the win that sticks out to me though. And as a Frogadier, it was nigh unstoppable. In fact, it never lost in that stage. Not even once. And it beat a myriad of opponents, too, like Sawyer's Grovyle twice, as both Treecko and Grovyle, Olymipia's (male) Meowstic, Ramos's Weepinbell and his Gogoat. Oh yeah, and Carrie's Sabeleye too. (I liked how Water Pulse was basically his signature finisher as a Frogadier, particularly against Grovyle and Gogoat.) And with Greninja, well, we all know Greninja's wins (and unfortunately his losses, especially one in particular. :mad:) I'll admit, Greninja losing to Charizard in the final battle after fighting it twice before and never managing a win was a terrible decision on the part of the writers, one which I think they would live to regret. (Blame my favorite Pokemon for being too cool for its own good I guess. :confused_emoji:) Ash definitely should have won in Kalos, I wholeheartedly agree with you there. But to say Greninja got done dirty, or even Torterra overall, feels like everybody overly focusing on the outcomes of the battles which they lost, instead of all the times they actually won, and there were quite a few. They weren't bad Pokemon by any means overall.

But poor Noivern and Torkoal, on the other hand, eeeesh. :oops: They........didn't really get much in the way of wins, did they? I mean Torkoal did beat Norman's Slakoth and Tyson's Shiftry, buuuuut then promptly lost in a single hit each to Vigoroth and Hariyama, respectively. It did return later and battled valiantly against Brandon's Registeel, doing quite well against a literal Legendary Pokemon, even though it lost even with a type-advantage. Then it returned in the Sinnoh League to essentially.......get maimed by Darkrai in, again, a single hit. (Poor Torkoal, why did the writers have it go down in one hit soooo often?) Oh, and I forgot the obligatory win Torkoal got against Steelix in its debut episode......but it wasn't even Ash's then.......so does that even count?

But all of this, all of it, is nothing compared to the treatment poor Noivern, a literal fully-evolved Dragon type Pokemon, got. It didn't battle at all really as a Noibat, only very briefly against Drapion and Breloom and really only one Tackle apiece. Then it evolved, and seemed to hold its own against Zapdos, I still remember how excited everyone was about that, as we all eagerly awaited Noivern's future. Unfortunately...........the writers decided to screw Noivern over, big time. I mean, its very first trainer battle after evolving it lost. Which.....would turn out to sadly, be a sign of things to come. I mean, it beat Doublade (with Dragon Claw and Acrobatics, somehow, against an Iron Defencing Doublade of all things, but ehhh.....I'll chalk it up to critical hits,) but then lost to Clawitzer shortly after. I will admit, tying with a Salamence is quite impressive, especially given Noivern's overall lack of battle experience, but sadly that would turn out to be the best Noivern would get post-Doublade. Because after that draw, it lost to Weavile and Mega Gyarados. Hell, it lost three times and won just once. If that's not getting done dirty, especially for a Dragon type, I don't know what is. So yeah, Noivern takes the cake overall I think.
Okay Noivern did get done dirty. Goodra too. Basically all the Kalos team was treated like shit except for Pikachu. Talonflame and Hawlucha should have done more than then they did too because I feel like they have stronger feats and them considering their league performances (minus Hawlucha beating Astrid’s Mega Absol mostly offscreen) underwhelming.
 

Hidden Mew

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Ash’s Lucario is written more statisfactily than Greninja. No I am not a Greninja hater, Greninja was done more dirty than Torterra, Torkoal, and Noivern combined.
Losing to Alain doesn't negate Greninja's accomplishments before and after it evolved. Greninja wasn't constantly losing like Torterra was, it had far more presence than Torkoal and Noivern didn't have any major accomplishments besides learning to fly and evolving. Even Torkoal was used in a few Gym battles. Greninja's storyline didn't really have the best sendoff given that they were setting up for it to defeat Mega Charizard X, but it was still treated overall just fine.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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Look, as someone whose feelings on Greninja are mostly neutral, I feel like this shtick of him constantly getting dunked on just because he couldn't beat ONE hideously overpowered lizard is getting seriously old. It's not like every other legitimately impressive win Greninja's gotten all of a sudden doesn't matter just because Alain's Megazard had Plot Armor the size of a planet.

Yes, Greninja had a raw deal compared to other aces because unlike them he was not allowed to overcome his rival, but to say that that means he was screwed over the most out of all of Ash's Pokemon is quite frankly not true. I mean, how can anyone seriously think that Greninja had it the worst when mons like Unfezant (who was made to lose to a Riolu), Torterra (who was never allowed to win after it evolved), Torkoal (whose only wins are against fairly unimportant opponents), Noivern (who literally only has one single win against multiple losses under its belt), or Pidgeot (who never actually did anything besides fend off Team Rocket, something that all of Ash's Pokemon can do) exist? At least Greninja has numerous wins under his belt and was literally the first of Ash's Pokemon to give a freaking Champion trouble and that was without having fully mastered his powered-up form.

TL; DR, as anticlimactic as the conclusion to the Kalos League finals was, Greninja still has it pretty dang good when compared to the rest of Ash's Pokemon, especially the non-aces. Heck, in many respects he has it better than practically the entirety of the Journeys team! To say nothing of the Johto and Unova teams.
 

Daren

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Greninja basically gets a lot of backlash because his hype to payoff ratio was bad, but in terms of overall treatment?
Probably worse than Infernape or Charizard, better than most of Ash's other Pokémon. Probably better than some entire teams.
Heck, JN is bringing Greninja back and is probably getting a rock star treatment this friday. Swellow wishes he came back in DP to be a cool mentor figure instead of a jobber, and was halfway to being the Hoenn ace.
 

Weddingbells

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Greninja basically gets a lot of backlash because his hype to payoff ratio was bad, but in terms of overall treatment?
Probably worse than Infernape or Charizard, better than most of Ash's other Pokémon. Probably better than some entire teams.
Heck, JN is bringing Greninja back and is probably getting a rock star treatment this friday. Swellow wishes he came back in DP to be a cool mentor figure instead of a jobber, and was halfway to being the Hoenn ace.
I mean let's be honest. It made sense that he lost to Charizard. Didn't Leon beat like tons strong trainers and champions. Even went toe to toe with legendary Pokemon. The most impressive opponent Greninja had was diantha, which he didn't even beat. It makes sense, considering Charizard has more experience that he beat Greninja
 

Daren

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I mean let's be honest. It made sense that he lost to Charizard. Didn't Leon beat like tons strong trainers and champions. Even went toe to toe with legendary Pokemon. The most impressive opponent Greninja had was diantha, which he didn't even beat. It makes sense, considering Charizard has more experience that he beat Greninja
The backlash wasn't because it was unrealistic, but because it was narratively unsatisfying for Ash and Greninja mastering their form to only result in a return to the status quo of beating Sawyer but never managing to defeat Mega Charizard X, combined with a general feeling of Alain as an overpowered pet character considering how quickly he got eight badges and the ease he showed in most league battles.
Ash-Greninja helped save the world but, again, that's status quo--Ash and his team help save the world in every generation since 3 or so.

Imagine if Infernape still lost to Paul because it was realistic that Paul's strategy of only capturing already strong Pokémon would give him the edge over Ash raising whoever he befriended.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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Heck, JN is bringing Greninja back and is probably getting a rock star treatment this friday.
Let's not forget that previews have already told us how he's gonna wipe the floor with Lucario, which all but shows that as strong as the Journeys team is, they still got nothing on Greninja. Some will definitely find such notion to be contrived and unjustified, and even I feel it's more than a little fanfic-y, but still.

Swellow wishes he came back in DP to be a cool mentor figure instead of a jobber, and was halfway to being the Hoenn ace.
I just imagined Swellow becoming a mentor to Unfezant (who let's face it, badly needs it) and the scenario of such a plotline is just the cutest thing according to my monkey brain :bulbaLove:
 

Weddingbells

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Let's not forget that previews have already told us how he's gonna wipe the floor with Lucario, which all but shows that as strong as the Journeys team is, they still got nothing on Greninja. Some will definitely find such notion to be contrived and unjustified, and even I feel it's more than a little fanfic-y, but still.


I just imagined Swellow becoming a mentor to Unfezant (who let's face it, badly needs it) and the scenario of such a plotline is just the cutest thing according to my monkey brain :bulbaLove:
I rather staraptor be the mentor :(
 
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