• Bubapedia Error 503 Backend fetch failed

    Our technical staff are continuing to monitor the wiki to try and resolve these ongoing issues that are impacting page and image loading. We apologize for the inconvenience. We'll update as soon as we've got more information on this for you.

  • Check out our new Mysterious Garden forum style if you haven't already - we're sure you'll love it!
  • All members are allowed to express their opinions, no matter how unpopular, so long as they respect others and do not claim their opinion is the only valid opinion. While we understand that there is debate regarding Goh, someone posting an opinion you disagree with does not give you the right to attack them or report the content for trolling/baiting. This notice will serve as a 0-point warning and as such, Anime & Manga staff reserve the right to jump immediately to point warnings. For more information regarding our stance on arguments and debates, see this PSA.
  • If you are finding yourself unable to log in, you should be able to fix the issue by following the following process.
    1. Close all browser tabs with any part of Bulbagarden open.
    2. Delete all Bulbagarden.net cookies (and if possible, any cached site data for Bulbagarden) from your browser.
    3. Close and reopen your browser, open a new tab, and log into the forums on the new tab.
    If you've followed this process and are still having issues, please contact us via the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the forum.

Controversial opinions

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
If you rewatch Gengar's first few episodes, it haunting the lab and the professors house was a direct result of it being abandoned.
Your misunderstanding me. Ik why Gengar was originally there. I'm saying the way Gengar acted, you could just replace his backstory with him just randomly haunting the lab and nothing will change.

They don't indicate he pranks ash and the others because of trauma
They don't say anything about the abandonment after the capture episode

That's why I said if you take out his old trainer, nothing will change
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
1,326
Reaction score
1,852
Gengar wasn't traumatized though, this is not a case of being left to die like Charmander or abuse like Paul/Chimchar or Tepig.
 

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
Gengar wasn't traumatized though, this is not a case of being left to die like Charmander or abuse like Paul/Chimchar or Tepig.
Wdym? He was lied to and left alone for years and years. How is that not traumatizing??

Abuse isn't just physical. And just because it doesn't involve death doesn't mean it's not traumatic. The fact that Gengar said Ike.im gonna trust a filthy human_ or whatever pretty much debunks he wasn't traumatized. The issue is that they barely did anything with it
 

Hidden Mew

Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
13,271
Reaction score
17,600
Being left alone for years, waiting for its trainer to come back, only to find out that its original trainer actually abandoned it because he blamed Gengar for giving him bad luck sounds traumatizing to me. It wasn't physical abuse, but emotional abuse and trauma definitely happened too. Chimchar dealt with both physical and emotional abuse from Paul, so they haven't only dealt with physical abuse or trauma before.

On a different note, I'm just about to get to Ash vs. Volkner in the dub and I'm amazed that they actually have pair trainers for their matches in the Hyper Class. Admittedly, I'm not sure why I didn't think that was the case before given how Ash battles against more established trainers going forward in the PWC. I'll give them credit for that improvement, but I'm also baffled as to why that wasn't the case from the start. It might not have fixed all of my problems with the PWC, but getting rid of the random encounters with nobodies, making use of both the world tour gimmick and the huge cast of characters from the franchise's history and providing a bit of buildup for the matches by Ash learning about them ahead of time would have gone a long way to make the PWC feel like a big deal.
 

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
Being left alone for years, waiting for its trainer to come back, only to find out that its original trainer actually abandoned it because he blamed Gengar for giving him bad luck sounds traumatizing to me. It wasn't physical abuse, but emotional abuse and trauma definitely happened too. Chimchar dealt with both physical and emotional abuse from Paul, so they haven't only dealt with physical abuse or trauma before.

On a different note, I'm just about to get to Ash vs. Volkner in the dub and I'm amazed that they actually have pair trainers for their matches in the Hyper Class. Admittedly, I'm not sure why I didn't think that was the case before given how Ash battles against more established trainers going forward in the PWC. I'll give them credit for that improvement, but I'm also baffled as to why that wasn't the case from the start. It might not have fixed all of my problems with the PWC, but getting rid of the random encounters with nobodies, making use of both the world tour gimmick and the huge cast of characters from the franchise's history and providing a bit of buildup for the matches by Ash learning about them ahead of time would have gone a long way to make the PWC feel like a big deal.
I think ash vs Volkner was the last great battle in pwc. Everything has been mediocre or bad thus far. Didn't watch Marnie battle so can't comment on that
 

Hidden Mew

Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
13,271
Reaction score
17,600
I think ash vs Volkner was the last great battle in pwc. Everything has been mediocre or bad thus far. Didn't watch Marnie battle so can't comment on that
Given what I've heard about the latter matches, I'm not surprised. Ash vs. Volkner was one of the more hyped matches that I can recall too.
 

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
They should start having pokemon as villains. The evil malamar thing was genuinely enjoyable. I just wonder what you do with them after beating them. Send them to jail? Also it disprove that stupid quote where "pokemon aren't evil, humans make them do bad things" which always annoyed me when people being it up

I feel it's honestly just first series weird installment. There are many things in the OS that definitely was forgotten in the later ones. Like actual real animals

Pokemon have been shown extremely intelligent. Especially to know right from wrong. Not all of them but most.

Pokemon, like the companion, have been shown to have a moral compass. I can't see Pikachu or poplio attacking a child even if there trainers commanded them too. There their own characters.
 

Daren

Unsung Hero
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
3,421
Reaction score
9,804
Pokemon, like the companion, have been shown to have a moral compass. I can't see Pikachu or poplio attacking a child even if there trainers commanded them too. There their own characters.
If I recall correctly we had Arbok and Weezing refusing to attack a doctor who healed them back in Kanto and I thought there was an episode later on where Wobbufett or Meowth got TR's others to stand down, but the memory is vague.
On the flip side Sceptile used a referee as a human shield when he thought Ash told him to...which probably says a lot about Sceptile, really.

That sort of thing can definitely be interesting to explore.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
2,404
Reaction score
6,983
Pronouns
He/Him
If I recall correctly we had Arbok and Weezing refusing to attack a doctor who healed them back in Kanto and I thought there was an episode later on where Wobbufett or Meowth got TR's others to stand down, but the memory is vague.
On the flip side Sceptile used a referee as a human shield when he thought Ash told him to...which probably says a lot about Sceptile, really.

That sort of thing can definitely be interesting to explore.
Well, TR’s pokemon have reason to believe their trainers are up to no good, Sceptile probably thought “Ash” a plan of sorts… hopefully.
 

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
If I recall correctly we had Arbok and Weezing refusing to attack a doctor who healed them back in Kanto and I thought there was an episode later on where Wobbufett or Meowth got TR's others to stand down, but the memory is vague.
On the flip side Sceptile used a referee as a human shield when he thought Ash told him to...which probably says a lot about Sceptile, really.

That sort of thing can definitely be interesting to explore.
Lol the sceptile comment genuinely made me laugh. I forgot all about that. Yeah maybe sceptile really does have a dark side lol.

It did show sceptile was uncomfortable with it. I can see pokemon owned by people like Giovanni or hunter j not having an issue with that.

But yeah they should really explore that.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

Detroit SMAAAASH! Eevee style.
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2,492
Reaction score
8,672
Pronouns
she/her
If I recall correctly we had Arbok and Weezing refusing to attack a doctor who healed them back in Kanto and I thought there was an episode later on where Wobbufett or Meowth got TR's others to stand down, but the memory is vague.
On the flip side Sceptile used a referee as a human shield when he thought Ash told him to...which probably says a lot about Sceptile, really.

That sort of thing can definitely be interesting to explore.
To be fair to Sceptile, he was pretty shocked by the order and even hesitated before ultimately complying. One also needs to take into account that Arbok and Weezing had been with Jessie and James for years and thus already knew what they were like. By contrast, Ash was being possesed, and Sceptile had no idea that was the case, which would just add confusion on top of everything else.

TL; DR, don't judge Sceptile too harshly. His situation was way different from Arbok's and Weezing's. I mean, I certainly wouldn't use this as an indicator that Sceptile is malicious in any way. Like I said, he had no idea that Ash was possesed, and Sceptile knows that Ash wouldn't hurt a fly, so he probably concluded that it was just a weird strategy, even if it clashed with Ash's usual style. (Though I will say that Sceptile should have caught on that something was really wrong here, so if nothing else, he might not be very bright or at least not very observant)
 

Daren

Unsung Hero
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
3,421
Reaction score
9,804
Of course, joking aside I imagine Sceptile basically trusted Ash and assumed it wasn't exactly what it looked like. This wasn't too long after the small arc where he lost his powers and regained them after Ash was in danger, which showed how close they are.

Drawing that comparison, back in Isle of the Giant Pokémon Ekans and Koffing openly called J+J "bad guys". They don't have any illusions about the whole thing.
 

Enzo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
1,592
Reaction score
6,286
Pronouns
He/Him
I think it's because moral/ethical issues require a lot of nuance that needs to be very well thought out, especially for a kiddie show like Pokémon, even more when you take into account that the show has never really approached the "grey area" too much. Morality issues were never something the show was thought with in mind, unlike something such as, say... ATLA or etc.

But I'm all for exploring morality with the Pokémon themselves. I mean, you tell me that Pokémon are essentially as sapient as humans are and (nearly) every single one of them is always gonna be good? That there's basically no Pokémon that is objectively bad? Or even morally grey?

Because like, animal irl can't be fully distinguished as "good" or "evil" because they don't have enough sapience to understand human concepts of morality and ethics, but Pokémon are. And they say that ever since day one, with even some being canonically smarter than humans.

Bottom line is: I get why it might be difficult to do that, but I think it's a lot of new ground the writers could explore if they wanted to.
 

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
I think it's because moral/ethical issues require a lot of nuance that needs to be very well thought out, especially for a kiddie show like Pokémon, even more when you take into account that the show has never really approached the "grey area" too much. Morality issues were never something the show was thought with in mind, unlike something such as, say... ATLA or etc.

But I'm all for exploring morality with the Pokémon themselves. I mean, you tell me that Pokémon are essentially as sapient as humans are and (nearly) every single one of them is always gonna be good? That there's basically no Pokémon that is objectively bad? Or even morally grey?

Because like, animal irl can't be fully distinguished as "good" or "evil" because they don't have enough sapience to understand human concepts of morality and ethics, but Pokémon are. And they say that ever since day one, with even some being canonically smarter than humans.

Bottom line is: I get why it might be difficult to do that, but I think it's a lot of new ground the writers could explore if they wanted to.
It also require the characters to be nuanced as well. I just can't see ash or the companion being effective characters for this kind of plot. They aren't the most complex or barely flawed, and just too nice.
This is why the villains we have aren't really nuance and one note bad guys

You have character like faba who tried to erase lusamine's daughter memory, the reason lusamine is kidnapped, then blamed lusamine for her own kidnapping z and then is invited to a wedding. With everyone basically saying "lol it's alright faba". The heck

You have Meowth who travels with the BW group. Pretends to be their friend. Betrays them and kidnaps their pokemon. And what's ash reaction? "Was fun traveling with you lol". Like tf

You have lysandre stating his goal and motivation ( albeit a stupid one at that" and Alain being the reason everything was going to hell in the whole team flare arc finale. And ash basically states "people and pokemon are friends" or whatever m and everyone around him acting like it's some amazing nuaced speech. And ash having no reaction to Alain betraying him (granted wasn't his fault)

These characters are present with interesting conflicts but react so blankly that it wouldn't work.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

Detroit SMAAAASH! Eevee style.
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2,492
Reaction score
8,672
Pronouns
she/her
One thing I think it's worth noting is that despite the whole "no Pokemon is truly evil" deal, the anime still has some noticeable biases when it comes to depicting certain species which actually often mirrors how certain animals are more prone to being villainized than others: stereotypically cute and/or cool Pokemon are almost always depicted in a heroic and sympathetic light, while the more intimidating-looking ones are, although rarely outright villainous, still more likely to be in an antagonistic position, most notably being under the command of rivals. I mean, during DP Paul was the most hostile rival Ash had ever had, and just look at his team: almost every single Pokemon he's seen using is a species that's either large, intimidating, or a combination of both, and the most egregious exceptions (Chimchar, Azumarill, and the Starly trio) were quickly removed.

Heck, sometimes the more stereotypically cute/cool Pokemon are even use to highlight which villains are less villainous, with the [email protected] Movie providing a very blatant example: the main antagonists are two thieves named Annie and Oakley. The former's signature Pokemon is the cute and elegant Espeon while the latter's is the comparatively scarier and meaner-looking Ariados. Guess which girl is the one who second-guesses the duo's actions and even expresses relief when their plan is foiled and which one is the one who goes mad with power.
 

puddleths

Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
191
Reaction score
310
There are no evil Pokémon...
togepi.png
 
Top Bottom