• Bubapedia Error 503 Backend fetch failed

    Our technical staff are continuing to monitor the wiki to try and resolve these ongoing issues that are impacting page and image loading. We apologize for the inconvenience. We'll update as soon as we've got more information on this for you.

  • Check out our new Mysterious Garden forum style if you haven't already - we're sure you'll love it!
  • All members are allowed to express their opinions, no matter how unpopular, so long as they respect others and do not claim their opinion is the only valid opinion. While we understand that there is debate regarding Goh, someone posting an opinion you disagree with does not give you the right to attack them or report the content for trolling/baiting. This notice will serve as a 0-point warning and as such, Anime & Manga staff reserve the right to jump immediately to point warnings. For more information regarding our stance on arguments and debates, see this PSA.
  • If you are finding yourself unable to log in, you should be able to fix the issue by following the following process.
    1. Close all browser tabs with any part of Bulbagarden open.
    2. Delete all Bulbagarden.net cookies (and if possible, any cached site data for Bulbagarden) from your browser.
    3. Close and reopen your browser, open a new tab, and log into the forums on the new tab.
    If you've followed this process and are still having issues, please contact us via the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the forum.

Controversial opinions

Daren

Unsung Hero
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
3,421
Reaction score
9,804
One thing I think it's worth noting is that despite the whole "no Pokemon is truly evil" deal, the anime still has some noticeable biases when it comes to depicting certain species which actually often mirrors how certain animals are more prone to being villainized than others: stereotypically cute and/or cool Pokemon are almost always depicted in a heroic and sympathetic light, while the more intimidating-looking ones are, although rarely outright villainous, still more likely to be in an antagonistic position, most notably being under the command of rivals. I mean, during DP Paul was the most hostile rival Ash had ever had, and just look at his team: almost every single Pokemon he's seen using is a species that's either large, intimidating, or a combination of both, and the most egregious exceptions (Chimchar, Azumarill, and the Starly trio) were quickly removed.
I suspect this is partly Ash's long-running underdog factor at play--if he sent out a Garchomp against Paul he'd have a perception of being the stronger of the two (side note: looking back I find it odd Paul didn't have a psuedo back in DP as I recall. It's not like those were locked off or anything since Tyson used one in AG).
Even when he got final form psuedos they're probably the two cutest and least intimidating ones (Goodra and Dragonite) despite possessing equal power to the others in-game.
I wonder how Meowth fits into that, though--he's very, very cute despite the most famous one being a villain, but on the other hand cats are very prone to villainization and he's been softened over time (honestly looking back in early Kanto I felt the TRios interactions suggested that while Jessie and James were old friends Meowth was less close and held himself above them, though later on it often turned into Jessie terrifying Meowth and James instead). I guess another cute Pokémon who was allowed to be pretty close to villainous was Sho's Raichu almost beating Pikachu to death.

Although even ignoring the underdog thing, Beedrill and Ursaring were often portrayed as menaces in the wild.

Though when you look at it I think the writers didn't feel too attached to "no evil Pokémon" concept overall, considering things like the giant Claydol in AG or the villainous Malamar in XY.
 
Last edited:

Ghost Diplocaulus

Detroit SMAAAASH! Eevee style.
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2,492
Reaction score
8,672
Pronouns
she/her
I wonder how Meowth fits into that, though--he's very, very cute despite the most famous one being a villain, but on the other hand cats are very prone to villainization
This, and the hero's signature Pokemon is a mouse. It just makes perfect sense for one of the main villains to be one of Pikachu's natural predators. Though granted, this is also something that stems from real-life animal stereotypes, namely the "(cute) prey animals good, predator animals evil" stereotype, and indeed, the cat/mouse dichotomy is probably the most recurring example of that archetype.

Raichu, meanwhile, is probably more along the lines of David and Goliath than a true subversion of "cute critter equals good", since it is Pikachu's evolved form and all, and if you put a pre-evolution next to its evolution, of course the latter does seem more menacing if only by comparison.

Lastly, I will be somewhat fair on the writers in that the cuter-looking species can sometimes be harder to pass off as powerful threats. One example being Harley's Wigglytuff: you can tell that the writers wanted the viewing audience to fear that thing to the point that they drew it with a permanent evil glare on it's face, but if you asked me, that backfired horribly and mostly just comes off as downright comical. Like, no writers, no amount of you trying to make this soft, pink marshmallow look scary is gonna hide the fact that it's a soft, pink marshmallow XD

Honestly, I think there it would've been better if they hadn't gone out of their way to make Harley's Wigglytuff look evil and simply relied on showing its battling skills. If you ask me, having a seemingly-innocuous Pokemon turn out to be a tough opponent is a far more effective way to establish it as a threat than to try to visually paint it as tough from the start. This is an aspect where "show, don't tell" can really shine in a narrative.
 

Daren

Unsung Hero
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
3,421
Reaction score
9,804
This, and the heroe's signature Pokemon is a mouse. It just makes perfect sense for one of the main villains to be one of Pikachu's natural predators. Though granted, this is also something that stems from real-life animal stereotypes, namely the "(cute) prey animals good, predator animals evil" stereotype, and indeed, the cat/mouse dichotomy is probably the most recurring example of that archetype.
Although I do appreciate that the show plays with the cat/mouse rivalry in a few ways; the mouse is the by far the physically superior one, the cat isn't looking for a snack but to capture the mouse to ultimately make them work with them, and the two are oddly amicable at times.

Lastly, I will be somewhat fair on the writers in that the cuter-looking species can sometimes be harder to pass off as powerful threats. One example being Harley's Wigglytuff: you can tell that the writers wanted the viewing audience to fear that thing to the point that they drew it with a permanent evil glare on it's face, but if you asked me, that backfired horribly and mostly just comes off as downright comical. Like, no writers, no amount of you trying to make this soft, pink marshmallow look scary is gonna hide the fact that it's a soft, pink marshmallow XD
I actually recall reading once that the artist for the Electric Tale manga had apparently mentioned that he had trouble with the Drake battle for this reason--he wanted Dragonite to look cute but still come across as powerful.
Of course Dragonite has the advantage of sheer size to get across menace in a way something like Wigglytuff doesn't, and the nature of contest battles meant Harley wasn't allowed to just have it buzz through May's team before going down.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

Detroit SMAAAASH! Eevee style.
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2,492
Reaction score
8,672
Pronouns
she/her
Although I do appreciate that the show plays with the cat/mouse rivalry in a few ways; the mouse is the by far the physically superior one, the cat isn't looking for a snack but to capture the mouse to ultimately make them work with them, and the two are oddly amicable at times.
Yeah, Pikachu and Meowth are a (much) less mean-spirited version of Tom and Jerry that way: Jerry may not be more physically powerful than Tom, but he's still the one that holds the upper hand most of the time, and the two have formed alliances quite often.
 

FluffleFi

Zzzzappin'!
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
517
Reaction score
1,526
If you ask me, having a seemingly-innocuous Pokemon turn out to be a tough opponent is a far more effective way to establish it as a threat than to try to visually paint it as tough from the start. This is an aspect where "show, don't tell" can really shine in a narrative.
This so much. Since the anime wants everything to be all flashy and dramatic I get why Ash is one of the only trainers walking into these regional tournaments with cute and unvolved Pokemon. But that doesn't I don't want other trainers pulling off similar stunts. Electivire, Ursaring and Magmotar are large and intimidating Pokemon so we expect them to be tough. But can you imagine Paul sending out say, a Clefable or a Delcatty and showing that they're just as powerful as the three stated?
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

8/18: Never forget what they took away from us
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
1,162
Reaction score
1,323
Ash treats his old Pokémon like leaving a dog with a petsitter for long times on end and then visiting them once in a blue moon. I’m shocked how none of Ash’s Pokemon lash out at him or Oak making a comment about him not checking in/visiting his old team members enough. Why wouldn’t they also be bugged that Ash isn’t using them in battle, especially in the PWC? What supports this is we haven’t seen Ash calling in to check on his old Pokémon since BW started, mainly because that’s when he stopped using reserves. I headcanon that at least Ash calls at least once a month to check in on his Pokémon and make sure they all get attention.
 

FluffleFi

Zzzzappin'!
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
517
Reaction score
1,526
I get where you're coming from and i'd love for Ash's reserves to be used more, but I think you're blowing it out of proportion. Between his journeys we don't know how much time he spends at home before leaving. It might be days, weeks maybe even months before he's on the road again. Hell, between Alola and Journey's Kukui and Burnett have had a son who looks many months old now. So while he's at home before leaving again he most likely visits his Pokemon at Oak's corral everyday.
 

Enzo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
1,592
Reaction score
6,286
Pronouns
He/Him
This so much. Since the anime wants everything to be all flashy and dramatic I get why Ash is one of the only trainers walking into these regional tournaments with cute and unvolved Pokemon. But that doesn't I don't want other trainers pulling off similar stunts. Electivire, Ursaring and Magmotar are large and intimidating Pokemon so we expect them to be tough. But can you imagine Paul sending out say, a Clefable or a Delcatty and showing that they're just as powerful as the three stated?
I know those can't be argued as official, canonical captures as those were just created as an "what-if" fanart series by a guy who just happened to have worked on the anime, but this is actualy why I liked those arts imagining Paul's teams across regions. (The ones somebody posted here a few weeks a go on the General Discussion thread, I think).

Of course there were "evil", intimidating-looking Pokémon in the mix, but there were some like Aromatisse and (I believe) a Shiinotic, and this is actually something I wanted to see more in the anime. Because one of Paul's most defining traits is cuz he refuses to keep a Pokémon unless said Pokémon is very naturally strong, so, really, how strong would that Pokémon be for Paul to keep and use despite being from a "weak species"?
 

Hidden Mew

Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
13,271
Reaction score
17,600
Ash treats his old Pokémon like leaving a dog with a petsitter for long times on end and then visiting them once in a blue moon. I’m shocked how none of Ash’s Pokemon lash out at him or Oak making a comment about him not checking in/visiting his old team members enough. Why wouldn’t they also be bugged that Ash isn’t using them in battle, especially in the PWC? What supports this is we haven’t seen Ash calling in to check on his old Pokémon since BW started, mainly because that’s when he stopped using reserves. I headcanon that at least Ash calls at least once a month to check in on his Pokémon and make sure they all get attention.
Just because Ash seemingly isn't visiting his older Pokemon more often doesn't mean that they don't get attention. They're still being cared for by Professor Oak, or Professor Kukui for his SM team. And if the Johto and Sinnoh Leagues were any indication, they are still training off screen to learn new moves. Even Infernape was battling the other Fire type before going to find Moltres earlier in Journeys, so they aren't just waiting around for Ash to come by.

As for being upset over not being used in battle, I don't think that they'd want to make being left at Professor Oak's lab as a problem. It's kind of a necessity since Ash needs to get a fresh team with every series, so he needs a place to leave his Pokemon and have them be taken care of. I understand being upset or disappointed that they seemingly aren't interested in using Ash's reserves at this point, but they aren't going to make leaving his reserves at Professor Oak's lab a problem in-universe.
 

A Wild Luxray

Hear me roar!
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
8,071
Reaction score
11,578
Just because Ash seemingly isn't visiting his older Pokemon more often doesn't mean that they don't get attention. They're still being cared for by Professor Oak, or Professor Kukui for his SM team. And if the Johto and Sinnoh Leagues were any indication, they are still training off screen to learn new moves. Even Infernape was battling the other Fire type before going to find Moltres earlier in Journeys, so they aren't just waiting around for Ash to come by.
Regarding training, while I REALLY wish we could see it on screen, JN114 showed us that it is happening. I can understand why we don't see it though because his reserves aren't the focus of the series. But you can tell its happening. You mentioned Infernape, but in JN114, I did notice other things. I believe one of his Grass types learned Leaf Storm and Oshawott seemed perfectly fine throwing his scalchop for an attack. Normally he'd panic. I genuinely appreciate that episode though for showing Ash's Journeys team actually training though.
 
Last edited:

Sai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
1,326
Reaction score
1,852
Yeah they basically confirmed in canon all of Ash's Pokemon train with each other at Oak's lab now. In some of the older Oak's lab episodes in earlier series like in AG or Johto it didn't really seem that way and it just seemed like they roamed the fields or slept, but then they started showing us they all train together which is nice.

On another note anyone notice only Ash's Pokemon are at Oak's lab now? Remember how Bulbasaur had to stop all the random grass and water pokemon from fighting each other back in the day, or how Oak's lab had countless other trainers pokemon living there too? Nowadays it seems like only Ash's Pokemon are there. I guess Bulbasaur doesn't have to be an "ambassador" for the lab anymore since only Ash's Pokemon are there.

I wonder if that's another thing the writers phased out over time, you don't see any random Pokemon at Oak's lab anymore from different trainers. When was the last time we saw something like that?
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

Detroit SMAAAASH! Eevee style.
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2,492
Reaction score
8,672
Pronouns
she/her
I know those can't be argued as official, canonical captures as those were just created as an "what-if" fanart series by a guy who just happened to have worked on the anime, but this is actualy why I liked those arts imagining Paul's teams across regions. (The ones somebody posted here a few weeks a go on the General Discussion thread, I think).

Of course there were "evil", intimidating-looking Pokémon in the mix, but there were some like Aromatisse and (I believe) a Shiinotic, and this is actually something I wanted to see more in the anime. Because one of Paul's most defining traits is cuz he refuses to keep a Pokémon unless said Pokémon is very naturally strong, so, really, how strong would that Pokémon be for Paul to keep and use despite being from a "weak species"?
I know this is pedantic, but I'm not sure Shiinotic should actually count as a proper example of a straightforwardly cutesy and harmless Pokemon, because according to Pokedex lore in the games it leads people astray with its lights (to the point that forests where Shiinotic are known to live are dangerous to traverse through at nighttime) and feeds by draining the vitality of other living creatures. Its face can also be pretty unsettling to look at once you realize its eyes reflect no light and its mouth is featureless and both are pitch-black. So... yeah, Shiinotic is already a subversion of the "cute equals weak and harmless" trope all on its own.
 

ripplefieldz

#1 faba hater
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Messages
159
Reaction score
219
Pronouns
she/her
Of course there were "evil", intimidating-looking Pokémon in the mix, but there were some like Aromatisse and (I believe) a Shiinotic, and this is actually something I wanted to see more in the anime. Because one of Paul's most defining traits is cuz he refuses to keep a Pokémon unless said Pokémon is very naturally strong, so, really, how strong would that Pokémon be for Paul to keep and use despite being from a "weak species"?
i mean, looking at ou at the moment, i can spot clefable, alolan ninetails, and slowbro all in the top 3 spots and i would not consider those particularly intimidating, so for sure non-intimidating mons can be pretty strong, hell there's even the infamous championship-winning pachirisu.
 

Hidden Mew

Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
13,271
Reaction score
17,600
Yeah they basically confirmed in canon all of Ash's Pokemon train with each other at Oak's lab now. In some of the older Oak's lab episodes in earlier series like in AG or Johto it didn't really seem that way and it just seemed like they roamed the fields or slept, but then they started showing us they all train together which is nice.

On another note anyone notice only Ash's Pokemon are at Oak's lab now? Remember how Bulbasaur had to stop all the random grass and water pokemon from fighting each other back in the day, or how Oak's lab had countless other trainers pokemon living there too? Nowadays it seems like only Ash's Pokemon are there. I guess Bulbasaur doesn't have to be an "ambassador" for the lab anymore since only Ash's Pokemon are there.

I wonder if that's another thing the writers phased out over time, you don't see any random Pokemon at Oak's lab anymore from different trainers. When was the last time we saw something like that?
I think that the last time we saw any Pokemon that weren't Ash's was back in AG. Bulbasaur came back for an episode after May caught her own, but had to go back to Professor Oak's Lab at the end to stop the wild Pokemon from fighting with each other. Those were still wild Pokemon and I don't think we saw many Pokemon from other trainers after the Kanto portion of the original series.

I think that they phased that out to keep the focus on primarily on Ash's Pokemon whenever he does come by. Plus, I don't think that they've been too interested in showing that other trainers from Pallet Town exist aside from Ash and Gary for ages.
 

FluffleFi

Zzzzappin'!
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
517
Reaction score
1,526
Weren't there a bunch of Pokemon shown off in the corral when Ash and his classmate went to Kanto during the Sun and Moon saga? Or were they all just wild?
 

A Wild Luxray

Hear me roar!
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
8,071
Reaction score
11,578
i mean, looking at ou at the moment, i can spot clefable, alolan ninetails, and slowbro all in the top 3 spots and i would not consider those particularly intimidating, so for sure non-intimidating mons can be pretty strong, hell there's even the infamous championship-winning pachirisu.
Ahh, yes. Sejun Park's Pachirisu. He actually beat BDSP with just 6 Pachirisu and he had to get through Champion Cynthia to do that. But yeah, Pachirisu is not that intimidating but proved the world wrong.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
2,404
Reaction score
6,983
Pronouns
He/Him
On another note anyone notice only Ash's Pokemon are at Oak's lab now? Remember how Bulbasaur had to stop all the random grass and water pokemon from fighting each other back in the day, or how Oak's lab had countless other trainers pokemon living there too? Nowadays it seems like only Ash's Pokemon are there. I guess Bulbasaur doesn't have to be an "ambassador" for the lab anymore since only Ash's Pokemon are there.
I think it’s partially for casual audiences. Many of Ash’s pokemon that don’t move the plot end up in the background when they show up, so sprinkling some random ones in there might confuse people that aren’t caught up.
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
1,326
Reaction score
1,852
I think it’s partially for casual audiences. Many of Ash’s pokemon that don’t move the plot end up in the background when they show up, so sprinkling some random ones in there might confuse people that aren’t caught up.
That and in the earlier seasons Ash had far less pokemon there. It was only a few Kanto and Johto pokemon. Now we're several series later and his entire older teams besides the Alola pokemon are there.

With Ash having so many older pokemon now there's no need to include say random Oddish and Hopip and Nidoran there like the older seasons did. Hell I don't even know where all of Gary's other pokemon are since all of Gary old pokemon should be at Oak's too. And Gary has like 100+ pokemon, lol
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2022
Messages
44
Reaction score
39
About missed opportunities like Trainers forgetting experience and reverting to a younger behavior while time was going backwards, there is also the missed opportunity of making Ash's corral Pokémon evolve. What I mean by there is that Poipole evolved while it was not in his Team. Ash visited the corral in Journeys twice, and we remarked that none of his non-final stages evolved (be them base stage or not fully evolved). It's not like they don't train, because it's been stated that they do. Did they all eat an Everstone? How come did none of them evolve?
 
Last edited:

Weddingbells

Active Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
248
Reaction score
601
Pronouns
She/Her
About missed opportunities like Trainers forgetting experience and reverting to a younger behavior while time was going backwards, there is also the missed opportunity of making Ash's choral Pokémon evolve. What I mean by there is that Poipole evolved while it was not in his Team. Ash visited the choral in Journeys twice, and we remarked that none of his non-final stages evolved. It's not like they don't train, because it's been stated that they do. Did they all eat an Everstone? How come did none of them evolve?
Not sure what your trying to say here
 
Top Bottom