• A new LGBTQ+ forum is now being trialed and there have been changes made to the Support and Advice forum. To read more about these updates, click here.
  • Hey Trainers! Be sure to check out Corsola Beach, our newest section on the forums, in partnership with our friends at Corsola Cove! At the Beach, you can discuss the competitive side of the games, post your favorite Pokemon memes, and connect with other Pokemon creators!
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

Controversial opinions

Ash story should end in jotho region,not now.
it was the perfect moment.
Fair and agreeable to some extent.

We still probably would’ve gotten the same stories (except for Pokémon Journeys).

Though, it does feel like some “Magic” will disappear if you do it that way.
 
I don't hate Liko and Roy, and I've stated my antipathy towards manga elitists who continually say Adventures is superior, but I kind of wish we instead got something like the special with Jimmy and Kris. Rotating protagonists like some kind of Jojo series.
 
I don't hate Liko and Roy, and I've stated my antipathy towards manga elitists who continually say Adventures is superior, but I kind of wish we instead got something like the special with Jimmy and Kris. Rotating protagonists like some kind of Jojo series.
Are you saying that Ash would still be the protagonist with there being a side special or would the entire content of the pokemon anime be a special like in Pokémon Chronicles.

If it was that way, I wouldn’t mind it. It would probably mean better quality content. (But there’s always the chance that they’ll slack off and only make bad episodes if they do it that way)

I also have to ask if you dislike the Pokémon Adventures manga or you just don’t like the people who keep shoving it in your face. At worst, I’d say the manga is mediocre. Though, I’d say it’s enjoyable.

Maybe your point is that people are just saying “Why not read the manga instead of watch the anime?” For me personally, the manga does not take away from the anime. Even if there was no manga, the bad moments would be bad and the good moments would be good.
 
I didn't find the "nervous Ash giving the wedding rings" thing funny at all. Why was he ever nervous in the first place? I would have found it funny it if were brought up earlier, justified in-universe and/or mentioned later.
 
Last edited:
I think the world of Pokemon would be better with.....less Pokemon? What I mean is not all aspects of the world should involve Pokemon. Entertainment, construction, cooking, and many aspects in the anime involve Pokemon. This makes sense, it's a world filled with well, Pokemon, but I think it would be better if this were lessened, to make the impact of being a Pokemon Trainer (and all its variants) more special? It also makes the excitement of seeing Pokemon less mundane than many think of it to be.

And this ties into another opinion, having real world animals around. I don't think there's too much to be confused if there were regular fish, bugs, even pets like dogs and cats. Sure that makes Caterpie and others pretty confusing but in some ways they're more special because they're classified as Pokemon? The biggest issue with this is the more similar to Earth the world feels the less fantastical Pokemon is.
 
I think the world of Pokemon would be better with.....less Pokemon? What I mean is not all aspects of the world should involve Pokemon. Entertainment, construction, cooking, and many aspects in the anime involve Pokemon. This makes sense, it's a world filled with well, Pokemon, but I think it would be better if this were lessened, to make the impact of being a Pokemon Trainer (and all its variants) more special? It also makes the excitement of seeing Pokemon less mundane than many think of it to be.

And this ties into another opinion, having real world animals around. I don't think there's too much to be confused if there were regular fish, bugs, even pets like dogs and cats. Sure that makes Caterpie and others pretty confusing but in some ways they're more special because they're classified as Pokemon? The biggest issue with this is the more similar to Earth the world feels the less fantastical Pokemon is.
imo i personally like this; it's clear the pokemon world has better tech partially due to pokemon materials, research, etc. there's mentions of it in the games, like the macro cosmos boards. you also see stuff like Golurks guarding banks

I really liked G1 because it felt like 'our world but a little more fantastic', and I get why people don't like that, but I think it rings a little more true for me/I'm better invested when it's more like our world.
 
Controversial opinion: MPM has just kinda...left a lot to be desired? We haven't see the last episode as of this post, but these last 10 episodes of this mini series have been underwhelming in a way. If you look at it as a standard batch of episodes, it can be genuinely nice. Some of them are very good episodes. It had some of the charm the OS did and it was just nice to see Ash traveling with Brock and Misty again. But looking at it as Ash's big send off...It kinda left more to be desired. I mean, after the 3rd episode, I kinda expected more returns after seeing Cilan featured and I thought there was some interview that implied we'd see more. Then I was hoping for more use out of the reserves when we had episodes that only gave him like 1 of his reserves. Plus there was just a number of scenarios that could have happened but we never got, like returning to Alola after making the region proud or maybe even something like seeing Primeape again. I even kinda hoped to see something completely out there like seeing Ash's father. It just left a lot to be desired after 10 episodes. There's still the final episode in less than 4 hours, but still.
 
Controversial opinion: MPM has just kinda...left a lot to be desired?

Honestly, this will likely end up being the popular opinion in time.

Most of us expected a farewell tour type of show, but they went for something more lowkey. In some ways it was the appropriate choice, but it's difficult not to be underwhelmed.

I think what they wanted to do was reinforce the whole "Ash always helps Pokemon no matter what" thing which has been central to his character, hence the seemingly random episodes with the Beartic and Bannette. Ash's actions earned Latias' trust, culminating in Latias asking Ash to save Latios. It worked, to an extent. However, my issue with it was the pay-off just doesn't seem worth the nine episode build-up, especially when it came at the expense of other, seemingly more important things like sending off the rest of Ash's companions. In the end, we see Ash saving a legendary from a random poacher nobody cares about, almost like a typical movie plot condensed into two episodes, and it's nothing special.

I never expected a deep dive into the "What is a Pokemon Master?" question or for anything significant to change (or any other unrealistic, fanfiction-esque developments some have been craving), but I would have preferred more companions appearing, if only to check in and see how they're doing. I don't need everyone to accomplish their dreams all at once, because that'd be cheesy as hell, but it'd be comforting knowing they're all dong something.
 
Honestly, this will likely end up being the popular opinion in time.

Most of us expected a farewell tour type of show, but they went for something more lowkey. In some ways it was the appropriate choice, but it's difficult not to be underwhelmed.

I think what they wanted to do was reinforce the whole "Ash always helps Pokemon no matter what" thing which has been central to his character, hence the seemingly random episodes with the Beartic and Bannette. Ash's actions earned Latias' trust, culminating in Latias asking Ash to save Latios. It worked, to an extent. However, my issue with it was the pay-off just doesn't seem worth the nine episode build-up, especially when it came at the expense of other, seemingly more important things like sending off the rest of Ash's companions. In the end, we see Ash saving a legendary from a random poacher nobody cares about, almost like a typical movie plot condensed into two episodes, and it's nothing special.

I never expected a deep dive into the "What is a Pokemon Master?" question or for anything significant to change (or any other unrealistic, fanfiction-esque developments some have been craving), but I would have preferred more companions appearing, if only to check in and see how they're doing. I don't need everyone to accomplish their dreams all at once, because that'd be cheesy as hell, but it'd be comforting knowing they're all dong something.
I think it was also reinforcing the fact that, at Ash's core, he's always going to be the kid wandering down the road. I've said it a lot, but it's very Ghibli in that way. Not in the animation, whimsy, or violence department, but more that there's always this feeling of something big around the corner.

That said: I knew not to expect a deep dive or some cheesy-ass Endgame canon cavalcade fuckfest (disclaimer: I fucking loved Endgame), but I can't help but be surprised. Not disappointed (much), but for the same reasons. Even the first reboot movie had the cameos.
 
I wasn't sure whether to post it or not, or what would be the right time to actually post it, but I guess this is about time now that the series is actually over.

I love Ash for whom he is. Afterall, there were only the first 2 generations and Ash was our goofy loved boy on the screens when I was only 5. I would be very excited to watch the animé every day even when it was not the new episodes. The broadcaster would put Pokémon on the TV at the same hour as the evening news get started, and my father would never miss the evening news. But I would still persistently make us watch Pokémon in the end. I used to have this giant pillow of Ash and Pikachu on it, and it was my favorite thing back then.

Although I loved Ash, he doesn't feel the same person anymore post DP series. He became just a generic person that would have his personality fit what the series wants to be like, and you cannot really tell that this is the same Ash that you used to love back then, at least in my perspective. It is more similar to how you have a really cool friend of your childhood, but as you age older they shape up and change gradually, and you only feel nostalgic about your childhood memories but it is not the same anymore because they are just not the same person.

That was the main reason why I felt like Ash became a non-person over the time for me. He protected his core traits such as loving and caring for Pokémon, being enthusiastic about it etc, but they were not really efficient to make a character "character". It was all of us in the end. I was always one of those people who would think that replacing Ash would give the series a fresh air that it actually needs so much. Even the writers have realized that over time and the change did not come all of a sudden but gradually. They decided that Ash would not compete for the league anymore so the formula has changed since SM drastically, to the point where we came to say goodbye to Ash. But I feel like we already said goodbye to the original Ash (as old fans) that we knew of during the post DP series. This is just the generic Ash leaving the show this time.

It is obviously up to the writers whether they will take this chance of fresh air to use efficiently or not, but sometimes it is essential to be happy that it happened and just remember it in the best possible way, instead of thinking about how white paper Ash had become since BW series.
 
Last edited:
I can understand not liking how Ash's personality was handled in the later series, but I don't really see him as generic exactly. Maybe it's because the core parts of his personality were still in place or how I think he was generally likable even when the writers would have him fit whatever role they wanted, but he never came off as a generic protagonist to me.
 
There’s a lot of “we” in that post implying everyone disliked/didn’t care about Ash after DP which is such lie lmao. Let’s not pretend XY(Z) isn’t one of the most popular sagas in the fandom BECAUSE of how Ash was portrayed as a cool and competent leader and great battler, what appeals to others doesn’t have to appeal to you.

Ash has been around for so long with changes to his personality across multiple sagas for nearly 30 years and thousands of episodes that people have different memories and experiences depending on when they started watching and it’s pretty presumptuous to just assume everyone should have the exact same reaction to post DP Ash and become disillusioned when, even a cursory glance shows that’s not true, speaking as someone who HAS been watching since the beginning.
 
There’s a lot of “we” in that post implying everyone disliked/didn’t care about Ash after DP which is such lie lmao. Let’s not pretend XY(Z) isn’t one of the most popular sagas in the fandom BECAUSE of how Ash was portrayed as a cool and competent leader and great battler, what appeals to others doesn’t have to appeal to you.
I am not quite sure if you read my post properly. I used "me" language if I am referring to what I think of Ash's characteristic changes in the show, and I use "we" language when I say I thought we already said goodbye to the original Ash long time ago because, this is my opinion..?

I also don't see how we came relevant to whether post-DP series and Ash in them were liked or disliked? XY and XY&Z are literally my favorite series, and I never implied that I disliked Ash? I like the BW series more than most others, I was quite passionate about XY series and the traveling companions, I grew a liking to SM series later and I like it as well. I don't think I even need to mention that I like JN series more than most others given the reactions in the past years during the run of the series.

This is one thing to like a character, this is a completely another thing to criticize a character. You can like someone and dislike some traits of them. It is not black and white.

And for the last, I am not sure I like the accusation of "lying" in that post based on your interpretation of my post.

it’s pretty presumptuous to just assume everyone should have the exact same reaction to post DP Ash and become disillusioned
I don't even want to answer to that part because my post has no relevance to assume what people should or should not feel, or whatever is being mentioned here.
 
I am still of the opinion that Ash should have been replaced after the Kanto Saga so that each region's saga could have their player character be the star. I stopped watching after Kalos. Well, actually it was more like Unova was when I really started to slow down. Alola is when I outright stopped. I only watched one episode of Alola (the first one) while I have not watched any of Journey's episodes.
 
I need to do a entirely full rewatch at some point, but as of right now in terms of Ash's character, I find that up to AG was one solid arc. DP being the reset, and BW being another but larger reset. BW sort of continues to XY (the lack of direct continuity still puzzles me), and then another reset for SM which is the current Ash.

I know a lot of fans say the first 4 generations is one cohesive saga but right now I don't think that's the case for Ash. In other words, I would argue that the beginning of DP was the time for replacement. I'm glad it wasn't though, because a lot of other characters were further developed in DP from AG.
 
I can understand not liking how Ash's personality was handled in the later series, but I don't really see him as generic exactly. Maybe it's because the core parts of his personality were still in place or how I think he was generally likable even when the writers would have him fit whatever role they wanted, but he never came off as a generic protagonist to me.
I feel the issue most people see with Ash's personality in the later series is not of being 'generic', but rather inconsistent.
In BW, Ash was borderline dumb and felt like he lost all of his progress from DP.
In XY, Ash was more mature and inspiring.
In SM, Ash was a ‘goofball’ when not handling Pokemon or not battling
And JN feels like it takes all of those three previously mentioned versions of Ash into one.
 
Direction counts for a lot in this case.

If you go through Pokemon's staff credits over the years, you'll find their writing team was largely consistent, with only a handful of new writers joining for SM and JN. However, the director position has been filled by multiple people in that time. Matsumitsu Hidaka did the original season and AG, Norihiko Sudo handled DP and BW, Tetsuo Yajima did XY and Daiki Tomiyasu led SM. Journeys ended up going through two directors before Tomiyasu took over for the finale. Evidently, each one had a different vision for the show and how to present Ash, and given how things turned out, we can say with some confidence they were all given plenty of creative freedom to execute those ideas. Yajima and Tomiyasu, especially, seemed to enjoy a great deal of freedom.

This is why I dislike blaming the writers for inconsistences and mistakes. A lot of them have been working on the show since the very beginning and they probably have a very good grasp on who Ash is and how'd he act in certain situations, but ultimately, their job is to bring the director's vision to life. For example, Tomioka worked on the Series Composition for both BW and XY, yet those series had widely different interpretations of Ash's ability as a trainer. Nobody knows more about Ash's ability as a trainer than Tomioka, but if the director at the time wants Ash to be an idiot, then that's what he has to do.

I can only speculate, but to me, it seems the directors were told to not pay much attention to what came before and that anything they wanted to do with Ash was up to them, so long as they were keeping his core traits consistent. They likely abandoned maintaining a strong continuity the moment they first changed directors. DP is often lumped in with OS and AG as being one consistent continuity, but if you go back and watch it, you'll find a lot of the inconsistencies start there, and it only gets worse over time.
 
Back
Top Bottom