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Controversial opinions

Discussion in 'Pokémon Anime and Manga' started by SinnohEevee, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    It may be just because I actually don't like Greninja that much, mainly because it tends to steal the spotlight from its fellow Kalos starter evolutions, but... I honestly don't like how Greninja hogged the spotlight in the anime. It could even be argued that it was stealing the show even from Ash.

    I've pretty much always hated characters who are "too special", or, as I've learned later on, characters who are "Chosen Ones" in one way or another. "Chosen Ones" are a common trope in all sorts of different stories, but some time ago (within the last year or so), I learned to appreciate how appealing regular characters can be, like season 1 Ash, for example. It can get kinda boring to watch as the main character always ends up winning in the end.

    Sorry, I may have gone off the track there a bit, but my point is that Greninja basically follows this "Chosen One" trope to such a degree that I feel it's stealing a lot of attention from everyone else around it.

    Incoherent ranting mode, off...
     
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  2. CaptainBuggles

    CaptainBuggles Member

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    I still enjoy characters like this, but mainly only when there's something unconventional about it, or if the narrative does a good job of showing that it's both a good thing and a bad thing. Or, if the Chosen One is not necessarily destined to succeed, they were just deemed to be somewhat more likely to. Like there's this cartoon called Trollhunters, where the main character is a boy chosen by a magical amulet... But it's already had plenty of other holders that died beforehand, and it has no way of actually being sure that he'll win, all it really did was pick up on some traits that make him a good candidate. Plus, he has to go through all sorts of crap to actually win in the end.

    I feel kinda... back-and-forth about Greninja in particular. Like on one hand, I will give them points for showing that it took effort to master Ash-Greninja, and Ash actually made tangible mistakes and didn't literally always win as a result... Plus, I understand why they would want Ash to have something equivalent in power to a Mega. But on the other hand, they could've made the decision to do Ash-Greninja sooner, so the buildup is longer, better paced, and has more conflict. It's kinda weird to have Greninja go from a normal Pokemon who just happens to have a similar philosophy to Ash, to just suddenly being super special.

    They could've also just planned to give him an actual Mega rather than making something up (which definitely isn't a new idea, judging by how many people wanted Ash to have a Mega Charizard Y, but I would personally want something besides that)
     
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  3. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    I admit that "Chosen One" shows like Yu-Gi-Oh!, Digimon, and Naruto can be good of written well, but ever since I learned to appreciate the regular characters too, this trope has gotten an odd side taste in my mouth. IMO, Digimon is especially guilty of this trope, as they have new "Chosen Ones" in every new series, and I don't this they pretty much ever go into detail of why the main characters are chosen as the heroes, at least in the first two seasons. So yeah.

    Also, the fact that Froakie was incredibly picky of its Trainer, and then choosing Ash as a worthy Trainer for itself, was bit of a sour thing for me.
     
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  4. Acrobatic Crobat

    Acrobatic Crobat Just hangin' around.

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    So... I'll be honest that some of those opinions may be influenced by the fact that I only ever watched rather terrible polish dub of english dub (how terrible, you ask? Let's just say that Woobuffet's Counter Attack was translated as "atak liczydłem". "Atak liczydłem" indeed means "counter attack"... in a sense of smacking somoeone over the head with an abacus.), which might've lead to me misinterpreting some things in the anime. Anyway...
    I simply hate anime incarnation of Misty and consider her by far the worst and least likable of all main characters - to the point where I almost cheered when she left in the episode "Gonna Catch Ya Later!".
    Why? Many reasons.
    Well... I'm not saying that Misty was an unlikable jerk and huge creator pet from the very beginning - she only became like this by the time of Johto saga. While Kanto and Orange Islands had some moments where it was really hard to feel any sympathy toward her, it wasn't that bad.
    So... let's begin with the very fact that Misty is one of the more iconic tsundere characters in anime. Now, I'm not saying that every tsundere is bad. I actually like such characters - unless their cold, passively aggresive demeanor is aimed at a ten years old boy, who is still far to young to understand the reason behind said demeanor and is left wondering just why a person he considers one of his closest friends seems to hate him with burning passion for no reason at all.
    But alright, she's 10 herself, so let's say I can forgive her. What I can't forgive? Her "I've always been the very best, like no one ever was" attitude. Yeah, you could say that the same can be said about Ash. What's the difference? Unlike Misty, Ash doesn't consider himself the best despite losing most of the fights (on the contrary: even if he is during one of his "hurr durr I am unbeatable" phases, every lost match reminds him that he still has a long way to go) and, more importantly, Ash always gets called out for his arrogance. Misty? Nah. We're supposed to accept that her bragging about being the absolute master of water Pokemon as a complete truth that no one dares to undermine, no matter how blatantly untrue it is. Seriously, most of the times Misty tries to show how great she is, it ends in a spectacular loss (including, at one point, against a wild MAGCARGO - Pokemon that her team should be able to steamroll through with little effort!) - and yet both narrator and other characters still treat her like a highly competent battler that she isn't. And don't even get me started on the whole "Misty is more skilled than Ash" thing: with the score being two clear wins for Ash ("Who Gets To Keep Togepi?" and "Totodile Duel!"), one blatantly lucky win for Misty ("The Perfect Match!") and one match unfinished, but with Ash clearly having the upper hand ("The Water Flowers Of Cerulean City"), it's rather obviously the other way around - and yet Misty will take every opportunity to tell Ash that she could easily defeat him any time.

    ...It's becoming a bit too much of a text wall and I'm only starting... yup, I'm probably ranting a bit.

    Anyway, that's just about Misty character - and then some of the things she says and does, which also paint her in a far-from-sympathetic light.
    Example? The whole "Who keeps Togepi?" incident. Don't get me wrong here: it's not the fact that Togepi ended up with Misty, but rather Misty's entire reasoning for why it should be this way. Basically, Brock spent WEEKS looking after that egg and Misty did a great NOTHING to help him - and then egg hatched, Misty saw that Pokemon inside is cute and suddenly decided that it should belong to her just because she was closest when it hatched. And once again, no one calls her out for this and everyone is okay with her competing for the egg despite having done nothing for it (even though Jessie and James are both immediately disqualiffied from the competition for the exact same thing).
    Then there is Charizard's arc throughout the first two seasons and how everyone, including Misty, calls Ash out for being a bad trainer, because he's doing nothing to make his Pokemon obey him again. Personally I think they're wrong about it (Ash is doing nothing, because there is nothing he can do), but that's entirely different matter. Anyway, why do I consider Misty's behavior during this arc worse than everyone else's? Simple: Brock, Tracey, prof. Oak, Gary, Ritchie - they're simply wrong, and that's it. Forgivable. Misty on the other hand isn't just wrong for calling Ash out - she is hypocritical. And I hate hypocrisy.
    Why I think it's hypocritical for her? Because she has similar problems with her Psyduck and, unlike Ash, does have means to make it more competent, teach it how to swim and maybe even make it a bit more obedient. What does she do? Absolutely nothing. She just spends five seasons straight complaining about how her Psyduck is the worst Pokemon alive, can't do anything right and doesn't even listen to her, yet never even tries to train him (and no, the fact that Psyduck is more skilled in Sun & Moon anime, 16 years later, doesn't mean anything, considering the fact that by then Misty had spent long time as gym leader and HAD TO train it a bit or risk it jumping into fight at worst time possible, costing her a match).
    But perhaps the worst despicable thing Misty ever did was during her fight with Ash in the episode "Totodile Duel!" - more specifically, when she sent out Togepi. TOGEPI. A several months-old baby that doesn't even know how to fight yet. Her whole "strategy" consisted of hoping that Pikachu won't bring itself to hurt a defenseless child. I think it's safe to assume that such thing would get her immediately disqualiffied (if not outright banned) from any official tournament - and yet once again it's treated by everyone like perfectly legit tactic.

    ...Yeah, it's been only one opinion, and yet this post is already this long... I'll try to be more brief from now on.

    I don't mind the whole "Aim for the horn!" scene or similar incidents in anime. Yeah, I know, in games Rhydon is immune to electricity... thing is, games don't run on pure logic. They use mechanics, which may or may not be logical. Rhydon has thick, rocky hide that should render it immune for electric attacks - but its horn, being made of keratin (or something similar) and not covered by said hide, would still be vulnerable (of course it's no longer true as of Generation 3, where Rhydon was given Lightning Rod ability, but said episode was back in Gen 1). The same applies to things like Charizard getting hit with Magnitude during Ash's fight with Gary during Silver Conference (why shouldn't it? Charizard was sitting on the ground with no way to dodge it!) or Pikachu often defeating Ground types with electric attacks (let's admit it: some Ground types, like Onix, Geodude or Rhyhorn, have a logical reason to be immune to electricity. Others, like Diglett, would be able to easily dodge it. Yet others, like Cubone or Phanpy... well... they don't.)

    And I think that Ash is actually better trainer than Red. People who compare them often tend to forget the fact that things like catching Pokemon or tournaments work differently in anime than in games. Yes, Ash only caught nine Pokemon in Kanto (and yes, those 30 Tauros only count as one) as opposed to Red's 151. Thing is, Pokemon in anime are FAR more eager to run away and FAR more adept at dodging pokeballs. Let's add to this that, unlike Red, Ash doesn't have unlimited time to walk around the same area in hope of catching one particular Pokemon that sometimes appears around these parts - and suddenly catching 9 start looking like a pretty good achievement.
     
  5. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    True enough, but considering Pikachu's more 'cute' than 'cool' too, I think Ash is due to have another cute bruiser at this point. If anything, I personally like it when someone goofy or cute is more powerful than they appear to be, since I like the whole 'don't judge a book by its cover' phrase.
     
  6. PkmnTrainerV

    PkmnTrainerV Flame Trainer

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    It falls squarely in the middle of cute and cool, not to mention that they have to make Pikachu appear good since it’s the mascot and easily the most popular Pokémon.
    It happens to be the exception in the cute/cool and power debate due to the virtue of being a mascot.
     
  7. Hidden Mew

    Hidden Mew Administrator Deputy Head Administrator

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    I actually really liked the Ash-Greninja storyline. I'd even go as far as to say that it's one of the highlights of the XY series for me. I can understand the problems people have with it, especially regarding Greninja taking up the spotlight from the rest of Ash's team. Even so, I thought it was a good storyline. There was some genuinely great character moments for Ash, particularly during the aftermath of his first attempt at the Snowbelle City Gym, and I thought that the bond they formed throughout the series resulting in a new power for Greninja was believable.

    It probably helps that I thought Ash's Kalos team was messed up well before Greninja came into the picture too. Once they rushed through Goomy's development and evolutions, Ash's team was never really good. If they actually spent time with Goodra and had its departure for the end of the series instead of in the middle of it, it would have been fine, but rushing through its evolutions to give Ash a powerhouse for his match against Clemont was disappointing. And Noivern was somehow even worse. They didn't even bother to do anything with it after it learned to fly in its second episode until it evolved somehow. They even had an open slot on his team that could have been used for another new Pokemon, but they just brought back Goodra for the Kalos League. That might have been okay if it did anything other than lose or force the battle into a draw. I still wish that Ash caught a Skiddo or something like that instead of getting Noivern or bringing back Goodra if he did still need two Dragon types on his team.

    While the Ash-Greninja storyline is far from perfect, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as the other issues I have with Ash's Kalos team. It was interesting, engaging and had some really good character moments for Ash that I still appreciate a lot.
     
  8. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    I'll never understand why people want the Orange Islands to have its own game. Looking back on it, not only would the selection of Pokemon be pretty limited, some of the challenges the Orange Crew gives you are pretty unfair towards some trainers.

    Take Danny's challenge for example; You need an Ice-type move or an Ice-type Pokemon to freeze geyser water, and considering there are spread out tropical islands, good luck with that. You also either need a Pokemon that can cut said ice or melt it into bobsled to race down a mountain. I've never ridden in one before, so I don't know how difficult it could be.

    And then there's Cissy, the first of the crew that Ash ran into. You absolutely need a water-type to challenge her. She doesn't recommend you have one, she pretty much demands it. Yeah, you could say that most trainers would probably have one on their team, but then every team is different. Not every trainer's gonna want a Water-Type on their squad, after all.

    The other three are fair, Rudy'll just put you through some kind of test of skill, while Luana double battles you and Drake just battle you. So with all of that, are we sure Drake remained undefeated because he was too tough? Or was it just the lack of challenges he received due to the other of the Orange Crews' methods?

    Course, I could be wrong. Maybe Cissy can be reasoned with or maybe Danny has multiple challenges you can go through. I wouldn't know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  9. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    On the topic of Orange Islands Gyms, isn't it funny how much Alola's trials ended up being like them six generations later? I think the only reason they (or at least most of them) are even called Gyms is because Gyms were still an unbroken tradition by this point.
     
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  10. PkmnTrainerV

    PkmnTrainerV Flame Trainer

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    I'd like to add that Charizard's flamethrowers carving a perfect sled was unrealistic. Logically the flamethrowers should’ve melted the entire slab of ice with no sort of precision.
     
  11. Golducky12129

    Golducky12129 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Luana introduce official Double Battles into the anime before the games did too?
     
  12. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    Yeah. They weren't introduced in the games until Generation III, meaning that Game Freak hadn't probably even thought about putting it into the games by that point! Or they had and the technical limitations just were too great before GBA.
     
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  13. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    At least with the trials, you're allowed to use any Pokemon you have on you. I can't imagine how upset some people would be if you could only use water-types for Lana's trial or Fire-Types for Kiawe's.
     
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  14. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    It was the early anime. It was full of weird stuff like that.
     
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  15. Golducky12129

    Golducky12129 Well-Known Member

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    With Ash still not having full experience with each Pokemon type I really believe leaving Haunter with Sabrina was, no doubt, one decision they should've thought over. I think a Ghost type would have been an interesting challenge for Ash to train, and it would've helped him out in later League and Frontier battles, I'm sure.

    Little EDIT
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  16. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    Shame it didn't get a cameo when Ash and Crew returned to Saffron City during the Battle Frontier Saga.
     
  17. Golducky12129

    Golducky12129 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking that myself. That would've been nice. Shame too, I really liked it for a Pokemon that only appeared in 2 episodes.
     
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  18. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    The BF Saga could have been used for plenty of call backs, really. Especially since FR/LG had been released. We could have seen how Primeape was holding up, Pidgeot could have been visited, Ash could have re-battled a Gym Leader or maybe even some of those GYm Leaders could have been in May's contests.
     
  19. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 The ocean is my Cloyster

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    Or just reappeared in general.
     
  20. Rockapheller

    Rockapheller Trainer since late 90's

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    It's not like GameFreak is too far from asking for that. This is literally what you need to do to face Brock in LGPE.
     
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