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Controversial opinions

Sorry to respond so late but I've been having allergy issues all day.


Although this is certainly true, I don't think being a weekly series prevented things like capturing/defeating "box legendaries". There may be some other mandates we're unaware of when dealing with such a big franchise, but the reasons ultimately don't adjust the outcome; as said I just can't see Ash as being a power fantasy character or being intended as one when a lot of the elements that make the protagonists of the games one were specifically kept away from Ash until Sun/Moon (and permanently in some cases); he not only didn't get the big climactic victory of becoming Champion the games all have, but the league being divided into a tournament and then the Elite Four means he didn't even qualify to attempt to get the game's climax.
I hope that you're feeling better. I think that being a weekly series would prevent something like capturing/defeating the box Legendary Pokemon. At the very least, I think it would have brought in some pretty major issues if they had done something like that. It would make it much harder to justify why Ash doesn't just have a team of Legendary Pokemon or why he has any issues facing off against any trainer if he could defeat/capture box Legendary Pokemon. Considering how they basically have the box Legendary Pokemon akin to gods starting from the fourth generation, it would basically ruin any tension or stakes going forward. Capturing Legendary Pokemon is a lot easier to justify in a video game where completing the Pokedex is a main objective as opposed to a weekly anime series, especially when they had Ash around for such a long time.

Ash not being a Champion until SM doesn't necessarily negate the notion that he's a power fantasy character. He still gets to travel around the world with his friends, gets to bond with Pokemon and has plenty of cases where he's the extra special trainer. He might not be a more traditional kind of power fantasy character where he's overpowered, but I think it would be easy to argue he at least has traits associated with a power fantasy.

I was talking about what I'd call the casual audience (I apologize for not being more specific; haven't been feeling well lately and I fear my posts are losing clarity as a result); the people who remember watching the show during the OS era and maybe occasionally looked up what was happening later on--they may or may not still play the games. From the posts and such I've seen over the years it seems like Ash failing to win the leagues is considered one of the most noteworthy things about him online outside the anime's own community, and it's not uncommon for him to be strawmanned as a failure as a result; I'm sure we've all seen the memes comparing him to Red.

It's not really fair but the fact is he did spend a very long time failing to accomplish his main goal in each multi-year series, and while his performance is supposedly pretty good for a real athlete even in his less successful series', it's a lot less common for fictional protagonists who aren't either some sort of villain or in a situation where success ends the show (and from what I've seen a lot of other characters like that often have shaky reputations as well).
That's okay. That kind of notion being more about the casual audience would make a bit more sense and I would see plenty of hate posts/memes about how Red is so much better. However, I would still say that calling Ash a failure because he kept losing is just inaccurate, if not also missing a key aspect about the anime. It was always more about the journey, not the destination. The appeal of the anime, in my opinion at least, was always more about Ash, Pikachu and their friends traveling together, having fun adventures and bonding with their Pokemon. The Leagues are still important too and I can understand being upset over Ash losing most of them, especially when the defeats started to be more infamous, but not having a trophy at the end doesn't mean that they're pointless or that Ash is a failure.
 
The above conversation seems to have gone overly in-depth into the definition of power fantasy while seemingly ignoring the really important initial point. I haven't seen the new series yet because I watch dub, but I am really concerned about the ever presence of adults and Liko and Roy not being able to have the same sort of freedom as the previous cast did. One of my very favorite aspects of Pokemon in general has always been the adventure aspect and I really loved the freedom that the main anime cast had, especially in Gen I-VI when it was all about a small group of kids traveling the region. This is especially exciting when you are kid watching this (which I sadly am not anymore), as most kids spend a lot of their lives being told what they can and can't do by adults, so being able to see their favorite characters adventure with a certain level of freedom can be a lot of fun to watch. I remember being very upset during the Pokemon Summer Camp in DP because of the restrictions and curfews placed on our protagonists - and that was only four episodes! Of course we have been moving towards this as SM and JN were a little less freedom based with a static "home" in each series and a significantly greater presence for recurring adult characters (and trust me I didn't prefer that at all), but there still were a lot of adventures where Ash and co had the freedom/flexibility to do what and go where they wanted. Having seen the sneak peek and really enjoying Liko's character had me really wishing (as I always do) that this could just go back to a Gen I - VI style anime, but I'm still waiting to judge the series until I see it; I'm just definitely concerned to hear that there is a "chaperoning" and "bailing out" aspect that limits the freedom that this series always used to provide its main cast.
 
The above conversation seems to have gone overly in-depth into the definition of power fantasy while seemingly ignoring the really important initial point. I haven't seen the new series yet because I watch dub, but I am really concerned about the ever presence of adults and Liko and Roy not being able to have the same sort of freedom as the previous cast did. One of my very favorite aspects of Pokemon in general has always been the adventure aspect and I really loved the freedom that the main anime cast had, especially in Gen I-VI when it was all about a small group of kids traveling the region. This is especially exciting when you are kid watching this (which I sadly am not anymore), as most kids spend a lot of their lives being told what they can and can't do by adults, so being able to see their favorite characters adventure with a certain level of freedom can be a lot of fun to watch. I remember being very upset during the Pokemon Summer Camp in DP because of the restrictions and curfews placed on our protagonists - and that was only four episodes! Of course we have been moving towards this as SM and JN were a little less freedom based with a static "home" in each series and a significantly greater presence for recurring adult characters (and trust me I didn't prefer that at all), but there still were a lot of adventures where Ash and co had the freedom/flexibility to do what and go where they wanted. Having seen the sneak peek and really enjoying Liko's character had me really wishing (as I always do) that this could just go back to a Gen I - VI style anime, but I'm still waiting to judge the series until I see it; I'm just definitely concerned to hear that there is a "chaperoning" and "bailing out" aspect that limits the freedom that this series always used to provide its main cast.
Couldn't agree with you more, especially about the kids being free of adult supervision thing.
 
Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon.
I hope that you're feeling better.
Thank you. Today has been a lot better. :)

At the very least, I think it would have brought in some pretty major issues if they had done something like that. It would make it much harder to justify why Ash doesn't just have a team of Legendary Pokemon or why he has any issues facing off against any trainer if he could defeat/capture box Legendary Pokemon. Considering how they basically have the box Legendary Pokemon akin to gods starting from the fourth generation, it would basically ruin any tension or stakes going forward.
To be fair the show already had a problem really just a step below this; they wrote Pikachu beating Regice and then tying with a Magikarp, they wrote Ash beating Paul then being booted out of the next league by a guy who only brought five Pokémon to a full battle.
Generally the way they handle something like that in shows like this is just explicit power escalation--trainers in Johto are just much stronger in Kanto, Hoenn is stronger still, and so on, and even in the games the "God" Pokémon come in lower level than the Elite Four.

Ash not being a Champion until SM doesn't necessarily negate the notion that he's a power fantasy character. He still gets to travel around the world with his friends, gets to bond with Pokemon and has plenty of cases where he's the extra special trainer. He might not be a more traditional kind of power fantasy character where he's overpowered, but I think it would be easy to argue he at least has traits associated with a power fantasy.
He has some traits of it, but I think most of it's just part of the package for a child protagonist in an adventure story. Again, I probably have a much more strict definition of a power fantasy character than some other people.

However, I would still say that calling Ash a failure because he kept losing is just inaccurate, if not also missing a key aspect about the anime. It was always more about the journey, not the destination. The appeal of the anime, in my opinion at least, was always more about Ash, Pikachu and their friends traveling together, having fun adventures and bonding with their Pokemon. The Leagues are still important too and I can understand being upset over Ash losing most of them, especially when the defeats started to be more infamous, but not having a trophy at the end doesn't mean that they're pointless or that Ash is a failure.
I have a few theories on why Ash gets so much negative attention compared to some other characters with similar or even worse records, but recently I've begun to suspect part of it is that there's not a more traditional animated adaptation of the games about a powerful who becomes champion: the show adapts many of the events from the games but not the entirety of the main storyline, so to speak (it was also tonally a lot sillier than the early games which I recall some complanints about during gen 1/2 though the games started getting more comedic later on as well).

I'm just definitely concerned to hear that there is a "chaperoning" and "bailing out" aspect that limits the freedom that this series always used to provide its main cast.
It's possible that later on their adult support will be taken away to provide increase sense of danger later on, but of course that may not be the intent.
Part of me wonders if maybe having a bunch of grownups around is part of them trying to cater to the veteran part of the fanbase but considering how little they do (outside constant Charizard) that it strikes me as a tad unlikely.
 
Thank you. Today has been a lot better. :)
You're welcome. I'm glad that you're feeling better.

To be fair the show already had a problem really just a step below this; they wrote Pikachu beating Regice and then tying with a Magikarp, they wrote Ash beating Paul then being booted out of the next league by a guy who only brought five Pokémon to a full battle.
Generally the way they handle something like that in shows like this is just explicit power escalation--trainers in Johto are just much stronger in Kanto, Hoenn is stronger still, and so on, and even in the games the "God" Pokémon come in lower level than the Elite Four.
As bad as Pikachu going from beating Regice and then tying with a Magikarp sounds on paper, I would still say it isn't as bad as Ash defeating the embodiment of time and space with Dialga or Palika. I also didn't really find that battle particularly good to begin with, despite how much I wish that fans acknowledged Ash's Battle Frontier victory, so I might be too biased about it. The Unova League is a better example, although I'd argue that the series had bigger problems than Ash's skills too. Despite some pretty infamously bad battles, I really think that fans exaggerate how bad BW Ash really is.

I have a few theories on why Ash gets so much negative attention compared to some other characters with similar or even worse records, but recently I've begun to suspect part of it is that there's not a more traditional animated adaptation of the games about a powerful who becomes champion: the show adapts many of the events from the games but not the entirety of the main storyline, so to speak (it was also tonally a lot sillier than the early games which I recall some complanints about during gen 1/2 though the games started getting more comedic later on as well).
That is a possibility. People have wanted an Adventures adaptation for years and while that wouldn't be a more traditional adaption of the games either, it would present battles in a more serious tone than what people associate the anime with.

It's possible that later on their adult support will be taken away to provide increase sense of danger later on, but of course that may not be the intent.
Part of me wonders if maybe having a bunch of grownups around is part of them trying to cater to the veteran part of the fanbase but considering how little they do (outside constant Charizard) that it strikes me as a tad unlikely.
I have seen some fans who like the adult supporting cast, but aside from Friede with his Charizard and Pikachu, none of them seem to be especially popular as far as I can tell at least. When I saw the preview of the dub and saw the opening scene with Liko, I immediately thought that they were trying too hard to make her different from Ash. I wonder if having a large cast of adult characters surrounding her and Roy is also a means to make her as different from Ash as possible. That's good in the sense of making her feel distinct, but trying too hard to be different can potentially cause problems too, especially when I feel like replacing Ash is already getting rid of the anime's identity.
 
You're welcome. I'm glad that you're feeling better.


As bad as Pikachu going from beating Regice and then tying with a Magikarp sounds on paper, I would still say it isn't as bad as Ash defeating the embodiment of time and space with Dialga or Palika. I also didn't really find that battle particularly good to begin with, despite how much I wish that fans acknowledged Ash's Battle Frontier victory, so I might be too biased about it. The Unova League is a better example, although I'd argue that the series had bigger problems than Ash's skills too. Despite some pretty infamously bad battles, I really think that fans exaggerate how bad BW Ash really is.


That is a possibility. People have wanted an Adventures adaptation for years and while that wouldn't be a more traditional adaption of the games either, it would present battles in a more serious tone than what people associate the anime with.


I have seen some fans who like the adult supporting cast, but aside from Friede with his Charizard and Pikachu, none of them seem to be especially popular as far as I can tell at least. When I saw the preview of the dub and saw the opening scene with Liko, I immediately thought that they were trying too hard to make her different from Ash. I wonder if having a large cast of adult characters surrounding her and Roy is also a means to make her as different from Ash as possible. That's good in the sense of making her feel distinct, but trying too hard to be different can potentially cause problems too, especially when I feel like replacing Ash is already getting rid of the anime's identity.
Fair, but at least to me HZ is looking way better than 80% of the Ash anime, that era had way too much formulaic filler and an overreliance on the TRio. Can't we just be thankful we're finally getting a new protagonist? yeah it's a bit overdue but better late than never has been a common mantra for anything in this franchise.
 
I think the Legend of Thunder was a lot more fun as a special that gave us introduction to characters not included in the regular anime than specials like Paldean Winds, Origins, Generations, the garbage they did for Hisui, etc. I did enjoy a lot of these other specials, but LoT did a lot more for me on the whole.

Just watched Legend of Thunder yesterday, the first time I saw it happened to be Thanksgiving, then it came up in a rewatch on Thanksgiving, so now I always watch it around that time (not annually or anything, seen it 4 or 5 times total). What I love the most is how it fleshed out characters from GSC that weren't going to be in the regular anime, but in the same universe which allowed for fun crossover and easter eggs later. As compared to the more recent specials I think this was far better at characterization, even in the short three episodes we got a great feel for each of the protagonists and how they interacted with each other. I also think the art style of the regular anime is dramatically better than any of the art styles used for the other specials.

This wouldn't have worked every generation because many main characters were present in the regular anime, but it would have been amazing for Galar and Paldea as well as have potential for Unova. In Galar we could have had some really fleshed out interactions for Gloria, Victor, and Hop - with Hop later crossing over as he did in the M8. In Unova it could have been Hilda, Hilbert, and Cheren - with Cheren's eventual crossover (Bianca wouldn't have worked as well because she was very involved in the regular anime). In Paldea it could have been Nemona, Arven, and the player characters, with Nemona's crossover coming before, but this giving us more characterization for her later. Paldean Winds has been enjoyable, but completely made up characters just don't mean as much to me, and of course these specials could have coexisted anyway. I would rather learn more about Nemona than just have her be an unbeatable obstacle. It would also be amazing to see some anime style special actually in the time of Hisui (I really thought they would go back in time in our anime special!) that actually focused on characters from Legends (Hisuan Snow is one of the only Pokemon productions ever that I legitimately disliked). That probably wouldn't have crossover, but could possibly follow Ingo since he's already an established character and could be really fun.

As for the content, it could all be very different than the LoT content, there are so many creative stories they could tell, it would just be really cool to see all these characters in regular anime style and with characterization like they got way back in Gen II, as well as the eventual crossover potential.
 
Fair, but at least to me HZ is looking way better than 80% of the Ash anime, that era had way too much formulaic filler and an overreliance on the TRio. Can't we just be thankful we're finally getting a new protagonist? yeah it's a bit overdue but better late than never has been a common mantra for anything in this franchise.
I can't really judge Horizons itself, but I don't agree with that notion about the previous series. If you were talking about the original series, there might be more merit to it, but the idea that the anime had way too much filler doesn't really make sense to me. It can definitely be formulaic and it does have filler episodes in every series, but I think that is an exaggeration at best. Considering that the Team Rocket trio haven't been featured in every episode since BW and Journeys itself barely did anything with them despite it also turning out to be their sendoff series, the idea that there was an overreliance on them really doesn't make sense to me.

And no, we can't just be thankful that we have a new protagonist. Believe it or not, not everyone wanted Ash to be replace. Sure, it has been a common complaint about the anime for years, but that was more so from people who had already stopped watching the anime than anything else. While Ash was never my favorite protagonist, I also never had a problem with him being the protagonist. He was still likable, had good connections with his Pokemon and usually had good chemistry with his friends in every series. Ash being the protagonist for decades always felt like a feature of the anime as opposed to a bug that needed to be fixed. It isn't like they couldn't tell new stories or that each series was the exact same just because Ash was still around. Each series felt pretty distinct. XY was nothing like the original series or AG. With new characters, new Pokemon and new regions to explore, having Ash and Pikachu around didn't really feel like a huge issue. It felt like they were able to have their cake and eat it too, so replacing Ash felt largely unnecessary to me with that in mind. And after being the face of the anime for over twenty years, I do think that the anime lost something important by going for a new protagonist. One of the reasons why I love the I Choose You movie was because it captured the heart of the anime, which in my opinion is the bond between Ash and Pikachu.

Besides all that, I think that being thankful that we have a new protagonist is kind of weak. Sure, Liko and Roy aren't Ash 2.0 and that is a good thing, but that's also the bare minimum of what they can do. If Liko's major selling point is that she isn't Ash, then that isn't a great sign of a good protagonist. I don't think that is the main takeaway I've gotten from fans who have seen Horizons, but if I'm being told that we should be happy to have a new protagonist just because they're new, that isn't really a ringing endorsement.
 
Fair, but at least to me HZ is looking way better than 80% of the Ash anime, that era had way too much formulaic filler and an overreliance on the TRio. Can't we just be thankful we're finally getting a new protagonist? yeah it's a bit overdue but better late than never has been a common mantra for anything in this franchise.
I’d feel better about it if not for the restrictive and overall safe nature of it. Sure we traded out weekly adventure for more story based but in turn we lost characters feeling free and now have them feeling like they’re on a kiddie leash with no real stakes because of the presence of the adults and hero Pokémon.

Plus personally, with the entire plot revolving around the hero Pokémon and Terapagos the series has yet to really give any reason why any of this is remotely important or why the viewer should care beyond it being the story they’re telling. Like, the story reads like a series long movie plot with none of the stakes. Because it really feels like whether they succeed or failed at gathering the hero Pokémon and finding Rakua, what really changes in the overall world of Pokémon beyond the RVT and the Explorers?
 
Plus personally, with the entire plot revolving around the hero Pokémon and Terapagos the series has yet to really give any reason why any of this is remotely important or why the viewer should care beyond it being the story they’re telling.
Honestly? I really don't much anymore. The series has started to get kind of boring to me already.
 
I want to preface this by saying that this is not me claiming that Liko has no fans in her own right - BUT I have seen an overwhelming amount of praise of her that basically amounts to nothing more than "she replaced Ash". I know a lot of people over the years wanted Ash gone (I'm not one of them, but whatever) but I completely agree with Hidden Mew that this on its own is not a good selling point. Honestly, even if I didn't like Ash I wouldn't consider this an acceptable substitution for my tastes. I don't find Liko, Roy, or honestly any of the other characters in this series interesting (I would die for Fuecoco, however), nor did the series itself hold my interest, and I'm not going to give it undue praise just because it's "new" or "refreshing" or "omg why don't you just give it a chance it's so good why do you hate that it's not like the old anime!!!". I gave it a chance, I didn't like it, I stopped watching it. I couldn't care less if other people enjoy it. If people are genuinely liking Horizons and its characters, good for them! I'm happy that they're getting some enjoyment out of it. Sadly it just isn't for me.
 
I think the adults allow for more stuff to happen earlier. Without Friede they would have to either A. Not be able to do anything with the explorers admins untill nearer to the end of the series or B. Make the explorers admins be weirdly weak by letting the two newbies beat them in battle.
Plus i've never been concerned about the hero Pokemon. Sure they could realistically use them to solve every big problem, but theres no sign that they will, the one time it's happened was a battle they probably wouldn't win in the end (Again, newbies vs an explorers admin) Edit: Also vs moltres but again, that was saving Liko from a head on move collision she wouldn't be able to stop.
That's also been my stance with these recent Friede/Captain Pikachu moments. They swoop in when its a battle they probably wouldn't win. Meanwhile they are allowed to fight Zir and Conia (when they arent running away) because they have shown to be able to handle them relatively well.
 
I think the adults allow for more stuff to happen earlier. Without Friede they would have to either A. Not be able to do anything with the explorers admins untill nearer to the end of the series or B. Make the explorers admins be weirdly weak by letting the two newbies beat them in battle.
Plus i've never been concerned about the hero Pokemon. Sure they could realistically use them to solve every big problem, but theres no sign that they will, the one time it's happened was a battle they probably wouldn't win in the end (Again, newbies vs an explorers admin) Edit: Also vs moltres but again, that was saving Liko from a head on move collision she wouldn't be able to stop.
That's also been my stance with these recent Friede/Captain Pikachu moments. They swoop in when its a battle they probably wouldn't win. Meanwhile they are allowed to fight Zir and Conia (when they arent running away) because they have shown to be able to handle them relatively well.
The way that I view that is that if it’s something that the adults or hero Pokémon had to bail them out of then the writers had no business putting them in that situation this early in the first place. It’s genuinely not compelling to watch the characters who are supposed to be the protagonists be treated like real world children and have to be bailed out by the adults. Who was asking for that from Pokémon of all things? And while they are allowed to fight Zir and Conia, it’s something that had been built up and is instantly undermined by them having to be bailed out. Heck, the writers won’t even let them save the day against characters of the day as a few episodes ago showed.
 
The way that I view that is that if it’s something that the adults or hero Pokémon had to bail them out of then the writers had no business putting them in that situation this early in the first place.
Eh- Fair to see it that way but the way i see it is that it allows more time for the cool stuff, rather than having to push it off for later and therefore having to rush it more to fit it in before the series ends.
 
Eh- Fair to see it that way but the way i see it is that it allows more time for the cool stuff, rather than having to push it off for later and therefore having to rush it more to fit it in before the series ends.
Right........you mean the cool stuff that Friede and his Pokemon get to do 95% of.
 
Right........you mean the cool stuff that Friede and his Pokemon get to do 95% of.
Eh... Ignoring the not really all too plot relevant episodes (The past few), I feel like its been pretty Balanced. Kids got to fight Spinel (Which ended early but, so did all of friedes Amethio fights untill this last one), Liko has been the one mostly dealing with the Heros (With Terapagos's help), They are usually the ones dealing with Zir and Conia like I said. Friede Just deals with Amethio mostly, also dealing with Sango and Onyx because Liko and Roy had no chance there.

I feel like the stuff they are doing with Captain Pikachu recently makes people think Friede has been swooping in more than he actually has been.
 
Eh... Ignoring the not really all too plot relevant episodes (The past few), I feel like its been pretty Balanced. Kids got to fight Spinel (Which ended early but, so did all of friedes Amethio fights untill this last one), Liko has been the one mostly dealing with the Heros (With Terapagos's help), They are usually the ones dealing with Zir and Conia like I said. Friede Just deals with Amethio mostly, also dealing with Sango and Onyx because Liko and Roy had no chance there.

I feel like the stuff they are doing with Captain Pikachu recently makes people think Friede has been swooping in more than he actually has been.
Problem there is that it seems like when the kids deal with something it’s not just that they get to deal with it and that be it. Against Spinel, they got to fight…until he then brought out Umbreon at which point Arboliva had to bail them out. They would deal with a hero Pokémon…but then the pendant shines and causes something that ends the conflict. They manage to beat Zir and Conia…but then instantly have to be bailed out by Captain Pikachu because there were more strong enemies there. It just has too much where despite them being the protagonists, they don’t get to have the actual glory and I wonder how long the writers plan to have these ‘in case of plot, break glass’ scenarios because it honestly hurts Liko and Roy’s credibility as the protagonists when they aren’t even allowed to have any definitive force in the plot.
 
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