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Controversial opinions

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ZDaemon09 said:
Lol! You should hear a big stink I have with the SM Manga and what it did to Lillie!

This one had potential and was robbed. The instant Guzma revealed the second Cosmog that... CAME out of nowhere. Lillie's steal Nebby and run gig had contributed to nothing.

Speaking of nothing, this Lillie had virtually no growth as of now despite that one outburst at the abandoned thrift store, implicating that there was going to be. She barely interacts with anyone outside of Gladion, Kukui, Burnet and the Dex holders and didn't really help Gladion during their trip to Poni Island. (Unlike the anime.)

Then comes the next big insult. Despite how this one carried Nebby, she didn't get to blow the flute, the Dex Holders did. Taking an important role she had from the games and giving it to someone else, to add it more insult to injury, they time skipped for half a year and it felt like it might have been a month because NOTHING happened besides Faba taking over and Lusamine derping with the UB's... that didn't do anything else besides wreck Ula'ula and derp at Poni Island.

Now we are heading the climax, Lusamine is heading to Ultra Megaopolis to get Necrozma. Nebby is at that city with the Dex holders and Gladion (Who had an out of nowhere injury for that long... just to get him out of that confrontation.) and Lillie are NOWHERE near Poni or that big right. Both kids, probably getting robbed of that climax without resulting to more ass pulls.

If Kasuka goes the route I feared.... then everything regarding the Aether Family conflict would JUST not be there despite the hype that was leading to this. Gladion and Lillie had some interaction, but they never had interaction with Lusamine outside of background and in Lillie's case a flash back. Everything regarding THEIR drama is given to the Dex Holders to resolve, despite how the it being Lillie's story was what made that plot good in SM.

USUM: took the focus on that drama away and weakened the main story because of that. HOWEVER, Lillie still had the same growth as in SM, if only rearranged for after Mina's Trial and during the Post Game. "Her goodbye to Nebby and her becoming a trainer." So it is to me a trade off that made up for the weakened main story... a MUCH better sense of closure to her.

The Anime: Altered that Story in many ways, but kept the spirit of it intact and dare I say, did it better than what the vanilla games have done.

The Manga: Took nearly everything away from Lillie and her story. Leaving us with what is just an inferior version of both games.

The worse part of all of that is that people trash at USUM and the Anime for making changes to the plot.... but not only give the Manga a pass for doing these spoilers in what is to me MUCH worse but PRAISING IT!
Now isn't that messed up.

Update
We are having the Mother Beast in the Manga and the Dex Holder's have to deal with this. Them! Not the Aether Siblings, despite Lusamine being THEIR issue! I'm... not sorry, but this can't be excused anymore. This Lusamine was completely wasted despite all the build up. She is never on screen outside of a flash back. We have people say stuff about her... BUT we never see her do things until the end... we have NO interactions between her and her children..... now the duo that is fighting her is... the Dex Holders and not Gladion or Lillie.

The anime did this MUCH better and in the anime, Lusamine isn't even evil.
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Whoa! Where did you get that last spoiler? I haven't heard of that yet!

Next up, more morally grey characters! Let's start with... Zinnia!

Since the manga obviously follows just one continuity, there has never been a reason to establish a multiverse concept in the Adventures universe. The problem is, this whole multiverse theory was a cornerstone for Zinnia's actions and throughout the Delta Episode. So what do they do with her instead?

Well, the fact is that in the games, her motivation for opposing the Devon Corporation's plan to warp the meteor to alternate universe was that it could wind up hitting a planet that didn't have the means to deal with it. Since we, as the players, know of the existence of the Pokémon multiverse, can see that she had a point, even if she did step a toe out of line by stealing people's Key Stones.

But in the manga, Zinnia instead opposes the Devon Corporation's plan because they were at least partially responsible for the death of the previous lorekeeper, Aster, not because the plan would be any worse than summoning Rayquaza. Heck, even some of the other Draconids call out the fact that she's mixing her duties as a lorekeeper with personal revenge. This fact alone, that he's opposing this plan for saving the world out of personal grudge rather than any kind of flaw in it, makes her way less likable for me in the manga than in the games.

And yes, I know that Zinnia did bring up the whole multiverse theory, but that was only a passing mention. A single panel. It obviously wasn't a notable motivator for her compared to her personal revenge quest.

Another thing that I didn't like about Zinnia in the manga was that when she sees Ruby and Sapphire riding Rayquaza and clearly connecting with it, she practically throws the equivalent of a tantrum (at least in my eyes) and declares that she and only she should ride Rayquaza and destroy the meteor. I know it was her duty and all, but that still goes a bit too far for me. To tell the truth, I actually enjoyed seeing Rayquaza reject her.

Speaking of the multiverse thing, it's clearly been shown to not exist in the Adventures manga. Which is why I was absolutely baffled when Anabel revealed herself to be a Faller. Did I miss something, or does the multiverse really exist in the manga too?

Hopefully coming later on the topic of morally grey characters: Colress!
 
FinnishPokéFan92 said:
I always preferred the nice Lusamine from the anime and the Ultra games to the evil Lusamine from SM and the manga, anyway...
Click to expand...

The anime Lusamine gave us a more full climax when we got to the Mother Beast. Least compared to the SM games.

Everyone was involved in some way, the class mates that got stuck with Lusamine's pokemon. Gladion was there AND Lillie called Lusamine out on this. We were also given a reason to care that our heroes are trying to rescue this woman.

The Ultra Games may have given the role of big bad to Necrozma, but the ultra games showed more depth to Lusamine's character by showing what would have happened if she never developed that UB obsession like in the vanilla games. Actually humanizing her despite still keeping that one a villain.

Plus we saw that one have some character development ON SCREEN! Instead of being implied, the biggest trade off there is the family losing focus and Lillie's call out downgrading to something off screen.

Here... there is nothing! Lillie isn't there. Gladion isn't there despite all the build up in the manga. I wouldn't be so angry about it if the same people who were giving this a pass were not also the same ones who crucify the anime and Ultra games for doing these problems less!
 
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I can't compare how the storyline has been done in Adventures. I'm still waiting for them to release the full volumes of the last couple of arcs before reading them. Now that B2/W2 is finally off its hiatus, hopefully that won't take too long to happen. However, I still don't really like that they made Lusamine nice in the anime. It still weakens a lot of what they were going for in the Nebby arc for me, especially for Lillie and Gladion's characters. Not trying to overcome their clearly emotionally abusive mother made their roles in the arc fall flat for me. While Lusamine wasn't a perfect mother, the conflict between her and Lillie just felt weak to me. Treating her daughter like a baby is a huge step down from being emotionally abusive/controlling in terms of conflict. It just feels much more cliched by comparison to me. It just changes too much from the games. That is typical for the anime and I don't think being different from the video games' storylines is always a bad thing, but I don't think it fits with the characterization they went for Lillie in SM, especially once they started to throw out hallow fanservice like her Z-Powered form out of nowhere. As nice as having everyone in the class help out with saving Lusamine sounds, I think that Lana, Mallow and Sophocles having to rely on most of Ash's Pokemon kind of weakens that for me too. It didn't really feel like a team effort when Ash, Lillie and Gladion still had the most overall impact in saving the day.

It's possible that they didn't want to adapt Lusamine's personality from Sun/Moon since US/UM were already out at that point, but I didn't like the changes US/UM made to Lusamine either. Trying to make her look more sympathetic might have worked if US/UM didn't play out so much like Sun/Moon until the climax. I think it might have worked better if Lusamine didn't actively show any love or interest in her children when she first appeared in SM. It still would have felt like the whole "overworked parents are too busy to show their kids that they love them" cliche, but I think it would have made Lillie's issues with Lusamine more relatable/justified. Lusamine was too busy to fully recognize what her children were going through, especially with Lillie's fear of Pokemon, but she still clearly loved them. That was obvious right when she first appeared hugging Lillie, even if it was presented as her being overly affectionate. That was a big reason why I couldn't get invested in that part of the arc, along with how their first argument made Lillie look incredibly selfish and childish compared to Lusamine of all people.
 
ZDaemon09 said:
I'm putting this link right here.
Click to expand...

Reading this, I immediately got a red flag while reading this part:
The problem with this version of Lusamine is that the motives and catalysts for most of her behavior go unexplained and are just written off with her just being crazy.

She’s obsessed to the point of near fetishism with researching UBs. Why? I dunno, she’s crazy.

She basically mentally strangles her children into capitulating with her demands, to the point of tossing them away like garbage for not obeying her. Why? I dunno she’s crazy.
Click to expand...

That ↑ is flat-out wrong. Anyone who's played the Sun/Moon past the main story and went to Aether Paradise to talk to Gladion (or, at the very least, read the Bulbapedia articles) knows that she actually had a reason for being like this:
Gladion is [I]Sun & Moon[/I] said:
My mother's desires to reach Nihilego... and what she did in order to achieve that goal... I know she was completely out of control. But that doesn't mean I can't understand it. It was my father who started it. He was the one who first confirmed the existence of Ultra Wormholes and Ultra Beasts. But my father... He disappeared during an experiment. Trying to connect to an Ultra Wormhole. All that he left behind was a weakened Cosmog and his papers about Nihilego... Lusamine's obsession with Ultra Wormholes... and her obsession with the Ultra Beasts... I think it was all basically her way of trying to reach him again. That's what I had to believe. To get through it.
Click to expand...

Yes, it was in post-game. Yes, it was just a few lines. Yes, it sounds like this more so Gladion trying to make sense of his mother's action and less so the official reason as to why she acted the way she did. But it's better than doing nothing (as whoever wrote that post makes it out to be). Maybe it could have been done better and maybe the writers could have explored Lusmaine's motives for connecting with Ultra Beasts during the main story (and maybe they could have provided some foreshadowing for her (supposed) redemption at the end of the games). But at least this is something, which is better than nothing. And to say that they never did so and that she's crazy for the sake of being crazy is a lie and kinda shows that this person couldn't be bothered to look slightly deeper into her character in the original games.

EDIT: Funny thing: apparently in the paragraph below the "she's crazy for no reason" rant that I mentioned, this Kaito guy (the guy who wrote the "wonderful" post linked by ZDaemon09) actually briefly touches on the reason for Lusamine's obsessions being Mohn's disappearance. However, he quickly brushes this of as nothing more than a vague fan theory, further showing that he's got no idea what he's talking about (he even miswrites Mohn's name (which, last I checked, is never called Moe in any version of the games) and states that he left her, not that he disappeared while researching Ultra Wormholes and Nihilego).
 
Pulsaro23 said:
Reading this, I immediately got a red flag while reading this part:


That ↑ is flat-out wrong. Anyone who's played the Sun/Moon past the main story and went to Aether Paradise to talk to Gladion (or, at the very least, read the Bulbapedia articles) knows that she actually had a reason for being like this:


Yes, it was in post-game. Yes, it was just a few lines. Yes, it sounds like this more so Gladion trying to make sense of his mother's action and less so the official reason as to why she acted the way she did. But it's better than doing nothing (as whoever wrote that post makes it out to be). Maybe it could have been done better and maybe the writers could have explored Lusmaine's motives for connecting with Ultra Beasts during the main story (and maybe they could have provided some foreshadowing for her (supposed) redemption at the end of the games). But at least this is something, which is better than nothing. And to say that they never did so and that she's crazy for the sake of being crazy is a lie and kinda shows that this person couldn't be bothered to look slightly deeper into her character in the original games.

EDIT: Funny thing: apparently in the paragraph below the "she's crazy for no reason" rant that I mentioned, this Kaito guy (the guy who wrote the "wonderful" post linked by ZDaemon09) actually briefly touches on the reason for Lusamine's obsessions being Mohn's disappearance. However, he quickly brushes this of as nothing more than a vague fan theory, further showing that he's got no idea what he's talking about (he even miswrites Mohn's name (which, last I checked, is never called Moe in any version of the games) and states that he left her, not that he disappeared while researching Ultra Wormholes and Nihilego).
Click to expand...

While I acknowledge that he didn’t fully look into the games’ story, it sounds to me like you didn’t even bother to read the rest of it, which is actually pretty insightful, if I may say so. Before you disavow it and sarcastically call it “wonderful,” I recommend reading it to the end. (Btw, the person who wrote the article is a good friend of mine, so I am a little biased; that does not mean I can’t tell quality writing when I see it. Just wanted to get that out there.)

Also, misspelling a character’s name is a petty point to make against an article - and I believe that for any article, not just ones written by this guy.
 
While that article did have some good points in it, brushing off video game Lusamine's motivation really bothered me too. Admittedly, I thought that she was just crazy when I played through the main storyline too, but Gladion's comment did imply that she only changed after she lost her husband and wanted to find him again. I thought US/UM made that even more obvious with that scene where they have Lusamine and Moah meet again. A part of me doesn't blame him for not picking that up since it was a few lines in a post-storyline interaction with Gladion, but at the same time, it's more than a fan theory and brushing it off completely does weaken his argument for me. Plus, putting in Lusamine evolving her Clefable when Lillie liked it more as a Clefairy in what she was guilty of in the anime lost me. That wasn't a decision up to Lillie. Maybe it was to show that Lusamine doesn't factor in her children's feelings enough, but if that was the case, that was a pretty bad way to do it since Clefairy was Lusamine's Pokemon, not Lillie's. Lillie isn't the one who decides whether or not it could evolve and trying to say that it was a bad thing for SM Lusamine to do rubs me the wrong way. That is a big reason why I couldn't really get behind Lillie's issues since that argument painted her in a much more immature and selfish light than Lusamine in that instant at least. Maybe that wouldn't have been too bad if we had already seen more of SM Lusamine, but considering that this was one of their first arguments in her debut, it did not help Lillie's case.

Like I said, there are some good points in there, particularly about how some parents just don't know how to have or raise kids like Lusamine. I still maintain that Lusamine isn't a terrible mother in the SM compared to the games. While she did unknowingly cause emotional damage to her children, she immediately apologized to Lillie after Gladion called her out on how oblivious she has been with them and protected Gladion from the Ultra Beast. I'm not saying that this instantly makes up for everything she did or shows that she is a good parent. I'm just saying that immediately accepting that she was in the wrong and wanting to protect her children counts for something.

Plus, it's hard for me to really see how deeply this neglect effected her children when Lusamine wasn't mentioned or seen outside of one picture prior to the Nebby arc. If this was built up throughout the series from the start instead of just when Nebby first showed up, it might have been executed better. Trying to cover the climax of the Sun/Moon games within just one arc wasn't a good idea for multiple reasons, but that was one of them. It just doesn't feel like Lusamine's lack of presence had any significant impact on Lillie until she suddenly showed up, but after she debuted, then Lillie was upset about her being so focused on work and questioning if her mother really loved her. It also doesn't help that I'm not sure how much Lillie and Lusamine's relationship has changed since the Nebby arc. It's not exactly the same since Lusamine isn't overly affectionate, but Lillie will still get embarrassed at Lusamine's immaturity, she was annoyed at her mother for not being more presentable during the Necrozma arc and outside of the Ultra Guardians stuff, I'm not sure how much more time they've spent together. Granted, I may not have seen more recent episodes where they interact outside of the Ultra Guardians, but despite the emotional climax of saving Lusamine, they still don't really spend a lot of time together.

I can understand some issues with video game Lusamine and I can see some of the points he's making about SM Lusamine. I just don't think that making Lusamine into a more, for a lack of a better term, realistic mother was the way to go. I can see why the anime went in that direction for a few reasons, but I just don't think it works for Lillie and to a lesser degree Gladion's storylines. Admittedly, I think not covering the Aether Foundation content until the middle of the series didn't help either, but Lusamine being emotionally abusive was a pretty key aspect to Lillie and Gladion's storylines and I think removing that doesn't work. It just makes their developments less noteworthy, especially for Lillie.

As a side note, I really hope that I don't have to read any more articles or write ups from Amino. Not that this article was bad, but just seeing all of the ads and comments popping up while I was trying to read it was annoying. It was better once I turned the comments off, but I could have easily gotten a headache if I didn't find that button sooner.
 
So.... from what i'm reading here... Does the adventures manga start going down hill after the DP saga? Because thats the only saga I read.
 
HiroHunter said:
So.... from what i'm reading here... Does the adventures manga start going down hill after the DP saga? Because thats the only saga I read.
Click to expand...

I've only read up to the start of the B2/W2 arc, so I can't talk about any of the storylines past that point. Even so, I wouldn't say that the series went downhill. The B/W arc is probably at least my second favorite one thus far. It's been awhile since I read it, but I thought it was pretty solid for the most part. I do feel like fans tend to overhype the series with being dark and violent when it really isn't, but I still think that the series is worth checking out. I would recommend reading at least the B/W volumes if you're interested in more of the Adventures series and don't want to go with the R/B/Y arc.
 
Mikuri said:
Do people even remember who May defeated in order to earn her first Ribbon?
Click to expand...

Yes. Grace. Grace with the Medicham, who utterly wiped the floor with Drew and wiped the smug smirk from his face with a High Jump Kick to the face.

While I agree with and admire your sentiment about Kenny's relevance within the anime, May vs. Grace is one of my favorite Contest battles because of the music selection, moves used, and May finally earning her first ribbon after a lot of effort. I still re-watch the battle occasionally.
 
* Dawn's Piplup and Ash's Oshawoot are very annoying and tiresome. Both sucks as comic relief.

* Clemont's Chespin is a masterpiece, a genuine comic relief.

* Bonnie is a marvelous character, but not a good babysitter. Please, relieve squishy?
 
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When the anime eventually switches over to the Galar Region, i'm hoping the male co-star has a bigger presence on the show and maybe a few arcs to follow. Brock was the longest running co-star but many people will tell you that he barely did anything during Sinnoh and his wanting to become a doctor kind of came out of nowhere. Tracy didn't have much going on and neither did Cilan. Clemont had that whole self-confidence thing going on for a while, but after his gym battle with Ash nothing new really came up, no changes to his team or anything. I'm not saying the next guy needs to have a full team of six, but I hope he and whaever Pokemon he has are treated like actual co-stars.
 
Platinum is probably my favorite Pokédex holder from Pokémon Adventures. Unlike most/all of the other Pokédex holders, her special traits (being knowledgeable and ultra rich) do not take away too much from her character development. At first, she kept denying having done things that her friends clearly saw her doing, like pretending to dig with a shovel, but eventually, when she discovers that her friends aren't the bodyguards she thought they were, she accuses them of lying, but later apologies to them and admits that she has been lying to them as well. That is good character development.
 
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