Controversial opinions

[PkmnTrainerV]

Plus the fact that every time he makes an honest attemp

The honest attempt was usually nothing more than sending Charizard out of its Pokeball and expecting it to obey as if things would have magically improved by giving Charizard downtime in its Pokeball.

 

[FluffleFi]

Can't say I ever really liked Charizard. I didn't hate him as a child, but now I just really dislike him. Yeah, Ash could have worked on trying to get him to obey, but what did Ash do wrong exactly? Not only did he, Brock and Misty save his life but he treated Charizard a lot better than Damien did. Gave him all the care and affection he could possibly need. And how does the Char repay him? By being a disrespectful little crap. Makes me wonder if Ash's Charizard would be as popular if it had appeared later in the series and didn't have so much nostalgia around it.

 

[TheGoldenToon]

I'm so glad they didn't do that with Chimchar. The only times it went berserk and attacked everything around it was when it's blaze ability triggered and that was NOT played for laughs, but rather treated as a serious issue that Ash did eventually rectify, and just in time for it's last battle against it's former trainer Paul. It was nice as a Chimchar and remained it's sweet self even after evolving into a Monferno and finally Infernape, the big difference now that it didn't fear Paul and was determined like wildfire to beat him. Remaining consistently loyal to Ash instead of burning him without true justification is why I feel the Chimchar story was done better. Plus when blaze activated, it entered a fiery animalistic rage where it couldn't control it's actions, not sure what Charizard's excuse is (I don't know if him evolving from Charmander was supposed to be like some sort of hormone-fueled rage or something). Of course Kanto had a lot of flaws in it's writing and a lot of weird tropes. I'm just glad the writing improved by DP, I would not have wanted the blaze situation to be given the slapstick treatment.

 

[CaptainBuggles]

The honest attempt was usually nothing more than sending Charizard out of its Pokeball and expecting it to obey as if things would have magically improved by giving Charizard downtime in its Pokeball.

That's still getting at what my root problem is, because no one actually has any better ideas for Ash beyond "don't bring him out he'll attack you"

Like, of course all his attempts are going to fail if he has no idea what to do and no one has really offered a sound solution beyond vague "you need to learn to control him", because to Ash, this *is* trying to learn to control him.

It'd be one thing if someone actually told him something concrete and he totally blew them off, but they just keep giving him the same flimsy advice and being surprised when he still can't do it.

Plus, this would be the perfect time for Brock or Tracey to actually point out specifically that he shouldn't only be trying to get through to Charizard right when he needs him, and make something more constructive out of the slapstick, but I don't remember them doing that.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

That's still getting at what my root problem is, because no one actually has any better ideas for Ash beyond "don't bring him out he'll attack you"

Like, of course all his attempts are going to fail if he has no idea what to do and no one has really offered a sound solution beyond vague "you need to learn to control him", because to Ash, this *is* trying to learn to control him.

It'd be one thing if someone actually told him something concrete and he totally blew them off, but they just keep giving him the same flimsy advice and being surprised when he still can't do it.

Who would be that 'someone'? Ash did not bother to go to anyone to ask for help. He did get a piece of advice that he has to earn back Charizard's respect.
No one helps the other trainers in their journeys, moreso since most of them travel alone but Ash has Misty and Brock.
He did not actively ask for help from other people. He did not bother to try to formulate a single plan. The only ones I feel could assist Ash without him asking were Misty and Brock who probably did not have any experience with disobedience, or they’d have helped Ash.

Ash did not attempt to control Charizard. All he did was command Charizard to attack whenever he had to face a specially formidable opponent. He did not even bother to let Charizard out of its Pokeball in any other case.

He did not have even a single session specially dedicated towards controlling Charizard.
It is my main problem with your argument.

 

[CaptainBuggles]

Who would be that 'someone'? Ash did not bother to go to anyone to ask for help. He did get a piece of advice that he has to earn back Charizard's respect.
No one helps the other trainers in their journeys, moreso since most of them travel alone but Ash has Misty and Brock.
He did not actively ask for help from other people. He did not bother to try to formulate a single plan. The only ones I feel could assist Ash without him asking were Misty and Brock who probably did not have any experience with disobedience, or they’d have helped Ash.

Ash did not attempt to control Charizard. All he did was command Charizard to attack whenever he had to face a specially formidable opponent. He did not even bother to let Charizard out of its Pokeball in any other case.

He did not have even a single session specially dedicated towards controlling Charizard.
It is my main problem with your argument.

You have a point, but for me this isn't actually satisfying, it just ends up shifting the issue to why the narrative doesn't give more attention to Ash learning these lessons, rather than making me want to blame Ash himself.

Like, Ash learning that it's okay to ask for help would've been a good arc for Kanto.

Trainers in general could be better prepared for their journey, and there could be sections in the Pokedex about disobedience. (There might be, but then again, if there were, would there really be absolutely no one who brings them up?)

At the end of the day, Ash is just a kid, and it's still not a satisfying narrative to give you character a pressing issue that has no resolution until after that arc is over already.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

there could be sections in the Pokedex about disobedience. (There might be, but then again, if there were, would there really be absolutely no one who brings them up?)

A kind reminder that Ash was the only one in the group who owned a Pokedex.

I blame Ash more than the people in the Kanto region since it’s literally Ash's job to train Charizard and no one else's.

It was Ash's flaw to neither ask for help, or even attempt to train Charizard even when he had multiple opportunities (there was a 2 month training period between the league and the 8th badge iirc) and that’s his fault.

 

[Johtohfiller]

Can't say I ever really liked Charizard. I didn't hate him as a child, but now I just really dislike him. Yeah, Ash could have worked on trying to get him to obey, but what did Ash do wrong exactly? Not only did he, Brock and Misty save his life but he treated Charizard a lot better than Damien did. Gave him all the care and affection he could possibly need. And how does the Char repay him? By being a disrespectful little crap. Makes me wonder if Ash's Charizard would be as popular if it had appeared later in the series and didn't have so much nostalgia around it.

I don't quite dislike him but I've never understood the hype he gets either. Was never a big fan of the whole disobedience thing.

Of course Kanto had a lot of flaws in it's writing and a lot of weird tropes. I'm just glad the writing improved by DP, I would not have wanted the blaze situation to be given the slapstick treatment.

I think slapstick gets at the heart of it; at the start the show was really jokey and more concerned with laughs than making sense. That's part of why I see Johto as underrated; despite its flaws you can see the show starting to take itself more seriously.

 

[HiroHunter]

A kind reminder that Ash was the only one in the group who owned a Pokedex.

I blame Ash more than the people in the Kanto region since it’s literally Ash's job to train Charizard and no one else's.

It was Ash's flaw to neither ask for help, or even attempt to train Charizard even when he had multiple opportunities (there was a 2 month training period between the league and the 8th badge iirc) and that’s his fault.

I blame the people of Kanto more because they though it was the best idea to send a Kid a who has no idea what he's doing into the world and making the presumption that he would know whats he doing and if not then they mock him instead of teach him anything and Charizard is the biggest offence of this.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I blame the people of Kanto more because they though it was the best idea to send a Kid a who has no idea what he's doing into the world and making the presumption that he would know whats he doing

That’s the general system of Pokémon training though. Literally every other trainer in every other region is sent off like this. I don’t know why Ash deserves special sympathy (specially since he was in frequent contact with his region's Pokemon professor before and after starting his journey. Not every trainer is fortunate enough).

Ash isn’t and should not be a special snowflake.

and if not then they mock him instead of teach him anything and Charizard is the biggest offence of this.

How many people even knew he had a Charizard? He kept it in his Pokeball till he battled against a particularly formidable trainer and if you’ve reached the seventh gym the gym leader would assume you know what are you doing.

 

[EscLucy]

I blame the people of Kanto more because they though it was the best idea to send a Kid a who has no idea what he's doing into the world and making the presumption that he would know whats he doing and if not then they mock him instead of teach him anything and Charizard is the biggest offence of this.

I think it was fine if Ash was a novice from the start. That is how it was meant to be. Trainers are meant to start an adventure and discover the world for themselves. The anime always comments on how you should keep getting back up if you fail. It was the anime's intention of making Ash a novice which worked and made his victories more exciting (they were exciting for the first series, mind).

 

[HiroHunter]

That’s the general system of Pokémon training though. Literally every other trainer in every other region is sent off like this. I don’t know why Ash deserves special sympathy (specially since he was in frequent contact with his region's Pokemon professor before and after starting his journey. Not every trainer is fortunate enough).

Ash isn’t and should not be a special snowflake.


How many people even knew he had a Charizard? He kept it in his Pokeball till he battled against a particularly formidable trainer and if you’ve reached the seventh gym the gym leader would assume you know what are you doing.

I would like to bring up Gary Oak.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I would like to bring up Gary Oak.

He was an anomaly, being the grandson of Professor Oak. May, Dawn, Serena, Casey, Jimmy, Reggie, Ritchie or any other trainer had the exact same resources as Ash to start his journey.

Ash even had an advantage over them by traveling with two gym leaders, one of them being a proficient cook, Pokemon groomer and Pokemon good maker when Ash's skills in those fields are zero.

Being very informed before starting a journey is the exception, not the norm.

 

[HiroHunter]

He was an anomaly, being the grandson of Professor Oak. May, Dawn, Serena, Casey, Jimmy, Reggie, Ritchie or any other trainer had the exact same resources as Ash to start his journey.

Ash even had an advantage over them by traveling with two gym leaders, one of them being a proficient cook, Pokemon groomer and Pokemon good maker when Ash's skills in those fields are zero.

Being very informed before starting a journey is the exception, not the norm.

Ok this is going to go back and forth so can we agree to disagree.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Ok this is going to go back and forth so can we agree to disagree.

At this point it’s just dismissing my perfectly legitimate arguments...

At this point my opinion of Charizard’s situation being partly Ash’s fault has ended up being the controversial opinion

You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m to my own at the end of the day so I have no objection against agreeing to disagree!

 

[FluffleFi]

Kanto was just a weird saga all around. If it were written today with the same style of comedy and story-telling it had back in the day, I doubt it'd fare to well. Charizard's disobedience would have been handled better, or maybe not have even happened since Ash did nothing wrong to earn the thing's ire. Brock and Misty would get some development in both personality and their teams, along with their Pokemon getting some much needed screen-time, maybe even Togepi would have learned to battle. Gary likely would have shown up more too since that rivalry was as lackluster as Sawyer and Trip's.

 

[TheGoldenToon]

Btw, I've been meaning to get others view of this. Misty in EP03 gives Ash a hard time about not knowing what he's doing, later when she accidentally catches Psyduck in "Hypno's Naptime", she doesn't seem to no more than Ash does. I know Psyduck is mostly a joke Pokemon, but if she wanted him to start listening to her and quit annoying her that bad why didn't she get help like Ash with Charizard? She's supposed to love Water types, but she didn't know that Psyduck have mysterious power when their headaches get worse. She didn't know what Psyduck's basic attacks are. She needed Ash's Pokedex to learn them. He couldn't even do a simple Water Gun for the longest time. I'm glad they seem more in sync by SM. Pretty much my big question that I like everyone elses answer to is, was Misty a hypocrite towards Ash or not?

 

[Johtohfiller]

I don't think there was much of a reason for Ash being totally unprepared and no one wanting to help him out other than "you're supposed to laugh at the butt monkey jokes".

 

[FluffleFi]

Btw, I've been meaning to get someone others view of this. Misty in EP03 gives Ash a hard time about not knowing what he's doing, later when she accidentally catches Psyduck in "Hypno's Naptime", she doesn't seem to no more than Ash does. I know Psyduck is mostly a joke Pokemon, but if she wanted him to start listening to her and quit annoying her that bad why didn't she get help like Ash with Charizard? She's supposed to love Water types, but she didn't know that Psyduck have mysterious power when their headaches get worse. She didn't know what Psyduck's basic attacks are. She needed Ash's Pokedex to learn them. He couldn't even do a simple Water Gun for the longest time. I'm glad they seem more in sync by SM. Pretty much my big question that I like everyone elses answer to is was Misty a hypocrite towards Ash or not?

Misty was a hypocrite, yeah. Granted, Psyduck listened to her for the most part and never attacked anyone, even when his headaches got to him. Would've made a pretty interesting character arc for her, though; for her to realize that she's no better than the rookie trainer she's always getting onto and finally sitting down to get serious about her water-type training. Bet Psyduck could have turned into a real powerhouse with some actual training.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Gary likely would have shown up more too since that rivalry was as lackluster as Sawyer and Trip's.

Trip's was lacklustre but Sawyers... no. Sawyer's rivalry was much better than Gary's, with Sawyer improving and eventually surpassing Ash, and compelling Ash to improve too.