Controversial opinions

[KyseL]

I actually prefer Tobias over Alain as a plot device to make Ash lose the Pokemon League. The fact that Tobias wasn't really much of a character makes it easier for me to accept him as the blatant plot device that he is. Alain, on the other hand, was a character with a story, a goal and a personality. He even received some character development as early as the Mega Evolution specials thanks to his interactions with Mairin. Turning a genuine character into a plot device is really unfortunate, especially because I think Alain's story could have been great. It had a decent foundation.

Pretty much this is how I feel.

Like KrisiChiki and Hidden Mew said, there just wasn't any way they could have made Ash losing to Alain satisfying with the material they were given. If anything, Ash should have never battled Alain before the league, so even when it was obvious he'd lose at least we had expected the battle to be fun (like what was expected to happen with Virgil). One thing that could have made it at least more bearable would be that Charizard should have been more tired and filled with scars.

I'd honestly have preferred it if Ash either won against Alain in their first battle before the league, or if Ash never faced Alain in the league and instead lost against Shota, which would have felt way more satisfying because of their character dynamics. Alternatively make Alain lose against Ash in the semi-finals and have Shota beat Ash in the finals.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't think that Ash losing to Sawyer would make much sense. Since Ash already lost to Sawyer and that defeat had a huge impact on him when he tried to get his eighth badge, he would have to beat him in the Kalos League. If Sawyer was still losing to Ash up until the Kalos League, then I think Ash losing to him would have worked out fine. There still would have been some backlash at least, especially when people would have assumed that Ash would win just because he has defeated Sawyer multiple times, but it probably would have been less intense than what we got when he lost to Alain.

They would have had to have a different setup for Ash's loss in the Snowbelle Gym. I don't know if that would have worked as well and I wouldn't want that conflict to disappear either. Ash dealing with his defeat is honestly one of the highlights of XY for me.

 

[Almonds]

Steven Stone had the best anime appearance as the champion.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Personally, I was still firmly of the option that Team Flare was going to interrupt the Kalos League and we'd get a conclusion later even when the title first came out. I'm not sure if that would have been better than having Ash lose right off the bat or not. Still, I can't really blame people for thinking he was going to win. I do think that the immediate backlash was too intense in some cases, especially during the first couple of weeks after the match happened, but I can understand why people were upset that he ended up losing. I doubt that any other League is going to get the same kind of attention and hype the Kalos League had among fans and that is kind of sad.

I was thinking along the same lines during the time. That Team Flare would interrupt Ash vs Alain with their Zygarde shenanigans and the Kalos league wouldn’t have any clear winner.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I don't think that people were overanalyzing the title. It was an assumption, but it was a pretty reasonable assumption all things considered. Ash had already battled to Alain twice, seemingly came close to defeating him in their second match before Ash Greninja was perfected and even making him ridiculously overpowered could have seen as building up to Ash's eventual victory. The title was just another reason why people thought that Ash was going to win. If that was the main reason people thought he was going to win, maybe it would have been more like reading too much into it, but it was another reason why the Kalos League had so much hype behind it.

Personally, I was still firmly of the option that Team Flare was going to interrupt the Kalos League and we'd get a conclusion later even when the title first came out. I'm not sure if that would have been better than having Ash lose right off the bat or not. Still, I can't really blame people for thinking he was going to win. I do think that the immediate backlash was too intense in some cases, especially during the first couple of weeks after the match happened, but I can understand why people were upset that he ended up losing. I doubt that any other League is going to get the same kind of attention and hype the Kalos League had among fans and that is kind of sad.

I heard that there was even a petition to overturn the results of the final match, which amassed thousands of signatures. I think that is going more than a little too far.

 

[Jersey Jimmy]

Roxie had possibly the best gym battle of BW. More leaders need to be made out to be absolute juggernauts, and that was a great example.

it also helps that she's my single favorite character in all of pokemon

 

[0cerge]

I was thinking along the same lines during the time. That Team Flare would interrupt Ash vs Alain with their Zygarde shenanigans and the Kalos league wouldn’t have any clear winner.

Team Flare could interrupt final battle only in case if Alain's victory wasn't planned by Lysandre. But gathering energy of mega evolutions was Alain's task and he successfully completed it by defeating all other opponents including Ash.

 

[Gengarzilla]

Team Flare could interrupt final battle only in case if Alain's victory wasn't planned by Lysandre. But gathering energy of mega evolutions was Alain's task and he successfully completed it by defeating all other opponents including Ash.

Why including Ash? Alain's battles with him weren't beneficial to Lysandre's plan as Ash-Greninja isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning there would be no Mega Evolution energy for the Mega Ring to take in.

Never mind interrupting the finals; Team Flare could have feasibly set off Z2's rampage before it even started. They wouldn't have gotten any more juice from Ash vs Alain.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Why including Ash? Alain's battles with him weren't beneficial to Lysandre's plan as Ash-Greninja isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning there would be no Mega Evolution energy for the Mega Ring to take in. Team Flare could have quite easily set off Z2's rampage before the finals even began; they wouldn't have gotten any more juice from Ash vs Alain.

Nah. I personally preferred the match being finished first. Now there's no uncertainties about the winner.

 

[Rockapheller]

Roxie had possibly the best gym battle of BW. More leaders need to be made out to be absolute juggernauts, and that was a great example.

it also helps that she's my single favorite character in all of pokemon

Honestly, though. Roxie's Gym battle was better than entire Unova league arc.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Honestly, though. Roxie's Gym battle was better than entire Unova league arc.

I'm personally just a bit sad that we completely skipped the Opelucid Gym in favor of promotion for upcoming games. We never even got to see the Legend Badge in the anime.

 

[DarkraiKnight]

I'm personally just a bit sad that we completely skipped the Opelucid Gym in favor of promotion for upcoming games. We never even got to see the Legend Badge in the anime.

That’s true - but Roxie’s Gym battle is one of those times where the promotion was blatantly obvious, but I just didn’t care because of how dang fun the whole fight was. Like, it’s seriously my favorite battle in the entire show thus far because of how intense and unique it is.

 

[0cerge]

Why including Ash? Alain's battles with him weren't beneficial to Lysandre's plan as Ash-Greninja isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning there would be no Mega Evolution energy for the Mega Ring to take in.

Never mind interrupting the finals; Team Flare could have feasibly set off Z2's rampage before it even started. They wouldn't have gotten any more juice from Ash vs Alain.

IIRC bond phenomenon has similar nature to mega evolution and its energy was registered by Alain's device. And Lysandre was interested in this phenomenon as well, possibly seeing it as another way for mega evolution.
Also AFAIK there was not excess of energy, since all of it eventually was used to power Giant Rock.

 

[Pulsaro23]

The "victory" part refers to the fact that someone will be victorious here, which is obvious. And it was Ash's ultimate battle at the league. I can understand why some people may have misunderstood it, but like I said, I think they're overanalyzing it.

I think we're having a misunderstanding over what "overanalyzing" actually means. To quote the Oxford Dictionary: "Overanalyze = verb [with object] Analyze (something) in too much detail". My point in the past post was that just by taking a look at the episode's title, the assumption one would get from it, at first glance, without looking too deep into it, without analyzing every word in the title and all of their possible meanings, without checking every possible detail, without trying to find a connection (or lack thereof) to past league episodes, is that this is Ash's victory (hence why I said they were underanalyzing it). Compare that to the first episode of the Kalos League, where people were actually overanalyzing a preview because they thought that the Mega Charizard Y we saw in said preview was potentially Ash's.

Sure, if you start digging deeper, you start to realize that the title doesn't necessarily state that Ash will win the league. But that's because of the ambiguous nature of the title. They (the people who came up with the episode's name) concocted a title that will hype the fans and plant the idea that their expectations will be met, without outright confirming anything. That way, when (not if, when) the people will be disappointed by the end-results, they could pull a "Get out of Jail Free" card by saying that they never tricked people into watching the episode, since they never promised that Ash would win. And that's one of the things that bugs me the most about this episode (besides the way the defeat was executed). That fact the whoever came up with that ambiguous clickbait-y title thought they could play such a slimy trick and get away with it.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

That way, when (not if, when) the people will be disappointed by the end-results

While I admit that I too expected Ash to possibly win, guess what? I. Moved. On. From. It. I understood that I had been expecting too much, and that Ash would never win as long as the show keeps going. That has been officially confirmed. So I realized that I had just gotten caught up in the hype a bit too much, and just moved on to look how awesome the Team Flare arc would be like.

So no. It's not "when". It's "if".

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

While I admit that I too expected Ash to possibly win, guess what? I. Moved. On. From. It. I understood that I had been expecting too much, and that Ash would never win as long as the show keeps going. That has been officially confirmed. So I realized that I had just gotten caught up in the hype a bit too much, and just moved on to look how awesome the Team Flare arc would be like.

So no. It's not "when". It's "if".

Not everyone might process things like you though, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
People might justly feel that the anime lacks conclusion and any remaining hope for the main character to actually win taken away.

The people trying to subvert the results through internet polls are a very vocal minority.

 

[Pulsaro23]

So no. It's not "when". It's "if".

...Okay, maybe I'm misusing words again, so allow me to explain myself. With a title like that (+ the way it was done) backlash was certainly going to happen (no matter how many people were a part of it).

"If" implies uncertainty (in other words, that the backlash could happen or it couldn't). "When" implies that something will happen, but at an uncertain time (aka. the backlash was going to happen sooner or later). Hence why I say "not if, when".

I. Moved. On. From. It.

So did I. Trust me, if I was still hanged up on it, I'd be more... let's say impolite. And I'll agree that in the grand scheme of things it was a bump in an otherwise pleasant series. But just because I moved on from it, it doesn't mean that it never happened.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Not everyone might process things like you though, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
People might justly feel that the anime lacks conclusion and any remaining hope for the main character to actually win taken away.

I guess people just like the classic shonen formula of the protagonist winning. Pokémon has often dared to be different from your typical shonen anime, like Yu-Gi-Oh, for example.

The people trying to subvert the results through internet polls are a very vocal minority.

Oh, yes. I'm well aware of that.

So did I. Trust me, if I was still hanged up on it, I'd be more... let's say impolite. And I'll agree that in the grand scheme of things it was a bump in an otherwise pleasant series. But just because I moved on from it, it doesn't mean that it never happened.

I admit, that loss isn't flawless to me either, but I'm still not mad about the loss itself, just the way how it happened and was set up.

 

[KrisiChiki]

IIRC bond phenomenon has similar nature to mega evolution and its energy was registered by Alain's device.

Alain’s device couldn’t harvest any energy from the bond phenomenon which made him particularly interested in fighting Ash-Greninja.

I guess people just like the classic shonen formula of the protagonist winning. Pokémon has often dared to be different from your typical shonen anime, like Yu-Gi-Oh, for example.

When people are rooting for a character, it’s natural for them to want said character to win. This is especially true for long time fans that have never seen Ash win an actual Pokemon League. Then it is further amplified by the writers using plot devices and deus ex machinas to make Ash loose.

I’m not worked up over it, but I do understand the criticism over the Pokemon League losses. I think it’s perfectly valid for people to feel disappointed and to want to see Ash win, as long as people are civil and give peaceful complaints.

I personally don’t think this situation (Ash finally winning the Pokemon League) is necessarily related to classic shonen formulas, but even if it is, there is nothing wrong with following formulas and tropes that work and people like.

What matters in fiction is how you use certain tropes and how you present them. There is nothing new under the sun, after all. Even the most unique works draw inspiration from existing material which, in turn, might draw inspiration from real life. Trying to avoid tropes/cliches does not guarantee a good story.

 

[Pulsaro23]

[...] there is nothing wrong with following formulas and tropes that work and people like. [...] Trying to avoid tropes/cliches does not guarantee a good story.

Agreed. If The Last Jedi has taught the world anything (or at least should have), it's that you shouldn't make something just for the sake of breaking tropes that nobody complained about. Nor should you try to make something for the sake of "subverting expectations". Nor should you tamper with pre-established characters and their personalities. Nor should you try to make something divisive for the sake of doing it. Nor should you... You know what, let's just say there are a lot of lessons one could learn from The Last Jedi. A LOT.