Controversial opinions

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Lila comes to mind, the woman who was Dawn's mother's rival from before; I believe she quit Contests at four Ribbons, and came back to try to get her 5th from Dawn on a whim.

There's also the fact that people can be gifted Ribbons too, like Princess Salvia did to Jessie, and that there are inter-regional Ribbons like the Wallace Cup, that can be used anywhere; these aforementioned things do complicate the estimation of how many actual Contests occur within a year in a given region.

To me, those still sound like droplets in a sea. Giving a Ribbon to someone else doesn't change their total amount, and even the Aqua Ribbons are rare and sought after.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I also thought that some Coordinators took years to get their ribbons. Some of the Coordinators May faced during AG were only able to compete in local Contests that happened once a year. I don't know how many trainers that could account for the amount, but I think that could make it more plausible for why there are so many Coordinators in the Grand Festivals without having thousands within a single year.

 

[Alola]

To me, those still sound like droplets in a sea. Giving a Ribbon to someone else doesn't change their total amount, and even the Aqua Ribbons are rare and sought after.

Yes it does. If a person is given five Ribbons, that's five Contests they didn't enter to win them. Now, if that same person entered and won five Contests, but didn't take those Ribbons from earlier, that's a total of 10 Contests (rather than 5) that occurred between that person and the potential Ribbon-givers.

Those droplets add up, when you're trying to find an accurate estimation.

 

[sc190191]

This may not be as much of controversial opinion as it's something kinda nonsensical that people don't seem to talk about. In the anime, Trainers need to earn eight Badges to enter a League tournament, while Coordinators need to earn give Ribbons to enter a Grand Festival. With Gyms, this isn't a big deal to understand, since Gyms hand out Badges to all winning Trainers, regardless of how many of those there are. But Contests are different. Each Contest is only held once within a certain time period, and only one Ribbon is handed out per one Contest to one Coordinator. And yet, the Grand Festivals have displayed dozens, if not hundreds of competing Coordinators, all of whom have earned the five necessary Ribbons. Do you realize how ridiculously many Contests would need to be held in a single region in order for that to be possible?

I actually did a long blog post on this a few years ago, since blogs were deleted, but I still have saved the post, I will put it here as my input on this topic, because I totally agree its really crazy

Spoiler: Old blog post April 2016

Anyway I was thinking about Grand Festivals today (which I really enjoyed, as I was a big fan of the anime's two main coordinators) and I was thinking about the five ribbon requirement to be in the grand festival as compared to only needing 3 princess keys for showcases. I realize the requirement was made to mirror gym badges, but five seems like a ridiculous number (heck even 3 does when you consider it) because a contest has many opponents and only 1 can win each contest and there are no "re match" opportunities. This makes me feel as though the Grand Festivals portrayed too many trainers than would be reasonable to qualify.

For gym battles, gyms across each region (more than 8 have been known in pretty much every series) can be challenged daily, with some leaders shown to battle more than once in a day, so getting 8 gym badges in a year (the time between league competitions usually) isn't too outrageous.

However contests are another story entirely. Given that the same emcee and judges are used at (almost) every contest, one would assume there can be no more than one contest per day in a given region. We know in the games that contests can be challenged whenever one wants (just like gyms), but neither of these things are reasonable because they cannot be open and available 24/7, and the anime has shown this by having contests be scheduled events and gym battles frequently having waits for the leader or other trainers.

If ribbons from a particlar region only can be used for a Grand Festival then no more than 365 ribbons (and likely a lot less, because everyone needs off days) could be handed out in a year. Considering that total, only a maximum of 73 coordinators could qualify for a grand festival each year, and that is unreasonable to assume, because many coordinators would win 1, 2, 3, or 4 ribbons but not get to 5.

If we assume that the same number of coordinators win 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 ribbons then only 24 coordinators would qualify each year. This is even a generous assumption, because it is much more likely that someone would win fewer than 5 ribbons than exactly five, some special trainers may win more than 5 (or just give ribbons away), and as mentioned earlier it would be difficult to have 365 contests a year (thinking about Sinnoh, Dawn would talk to Zoey about an upcoming contest that was like a few weeks away as if that were the only one coming up). This would lead to many fewer qualifying coordinators for grand festivals we saw in Hoenn, Kanto, and Sinnoh festivals (my reasonable estimate assuming contests being about as frequent as they were in the anime would be less than 5 qualifiers per year).

There are a couple of things that could impact this number, first ribbons from other regions may sometimes count (as was confirmed in the Wallace cup, although that was a very difficult ribbon to win considering it was over multiple days and had many more contestants than usual) and second ribbons may last from year to year. I am not sure if ribbons last year to year, but it seems to be implied in some cases in Hoenn that they did, but implied in other cases that they maybe didn't, as I do recall when May nearly missed the boat to the contest she eventually won her fifth Hoenn ribbon at, that she was concerned about starting all over.

Even if ribbons stack up over a lifetime, winning five would still be a very difficult task (much more difficult than eight gym badges). The next question would be, once the five are used to enter a grand festival, do they not count towards the next grand festival, or could May, for example, participate in every Hoenn and Kanto grand festival for eternity because she won 5 contests in those regions? I would think they would continue to count, although it is hard to say. Gym badges would continue to count because a trainer wouldn't be asked to beat the same gym leader each year, but ribbons are very different because each contest is a very different challenge.

Anyway I guess this goes in a blog because it doesn't really have a point, its just rambling though about grand festivals. I do think that what May and Dawn did was more impressive (especially May), when you consider they had such a high winning percentage in contests where they had to beat and outperform many opponents instead of just one. I also think that 5 ribbons for a grand festival seems like an unreasonably high amount, unless there are many more contests than one a day taking place throughout each region (which may be the case, maybe there are "lower class" that aren't as much a main event and have different judges, but still give out ribbons that count towards the grand festival).

Yes it does. If a person is given five Ribbons, that's five Contests they didn't enter to win them. Now, if that same person entered and won five Contests, but didn't take those Ribbons from earlier, that's a total of 10 Contests (rather than 5) that occurred between that person and the potential Ribbon-givers.

Those droplets add up, when you're trying to find an accurate estimation.

Keep in mind that the gifting ribbons is somewhat contradicted, because in Hoenn when Jessie stole the Swalot trainer's ribbons, she had to dress up as him and use his contest pass, even though she had her own contest pass, because his earned ribbons were registered to the pass. All in all, I think we have to take the whole thing with a grain of salt because they didn't necessarily plan it out all that well, have multiple contradictory points, and some very nearly impossible number of contestants (especially when considering the young age of a majority of contestants, the multiple years ribbon hunt wouldn't come into play that often), and just enjoy contests for what they were.

 

[Alola]

Keep in mind that the gifting ribbons is somewhat contradicted, because in Hoenn when Jessie stole the Swalot trainer's ribbons, she had to dress up as him and use his contest pass, even though she had her own contest pass, because his earned ribbons were registered to the pass. All in all, I think we have to take the whole thing with a grain of salt because they didn't necessarily plan it out all that well, have multiple contradictory points, and some very nearly impossible number of contestants (especially when considering the young age of a majority of contestants, the multiple years ribbon hunt wouldn't come into play that often), and just enjoy contests for what they were.

As a huge Contest fan, I will always enjoy them for what they were and what they could possibly be down the road (one can hope). That being said, there's no issue discussing the ramifications of Contests in question should people want to.

That's a good point about Jessie and it could very well be an issue of Early Installment Weirdness regarding how Ribbons were to be handled. Or, perhaps that's just how things are done in Hoenn, whereas in Sinnoh a Ribbon isn't bound to a Coordinator in such a manner (a regional aspect, akin to how Ball Capsules are used in Sinnoh, but apparently not in Hoenn or Kanto). Either way, this discussion has certainly proven to be an interesting one in my opinion; you'd think Contest Halls would be more populous rather than being primarily restricted to towns and cities without Gyms.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Keep in mind that the gifting ribbons is somewhat contradicted, because in Hoenn when Jessie stole the Swalot trainer's ribbons, she had to dress up as him and use his contest pass, even though she had her own contest pass, because his earned ribbons were registered to the pass.

Stealing someone's ribbon is not the same thing as given one, though. The princess probably informed them that she give her ribbon to someone else.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Stealing someone's ribbon is not the same thing as given one, though. The princess probably informed them that she give her ribbon to someone else.

I don't think she did. Remember that she was competing while disguised as Dawn, so as far as the rest of the world knows, it was Dawn who won that Ribbon, not Salvia.

 

[sc190191]

As a huge Contest fan, I will always enjoy them for what they were and what they could possibly be down the road (one can hope). That being said, there's no issue discussing the ramifications of Contests in question should people want to.

I wasn't trying to say don't discuss it (I love when contests come up in topics because they were one of my favorite things), sorry if it came across that way, all I'm saying is the more logic we apply to contests, the less satisfying they may feel because there are a lot of holes logically with the logistics, which can be said about many aspects of the anime.

I'm just not sure we can come up with a logically satisfying answer to how so many coordinators made the grand festival considering so many of the implications we have to work with hint at a fairly small number of contests. But I still think its an interesting conversation (hence why I wrote multiple pages about it several years ago), I just try to ignore it now when I am watching said episodes so I still fully enjoy them.

 

[Daenerys]

Given all the recent essays and calculations over Contests, I'd like to admit that I don't like Contests all that much. The appeals were the most interesting thing about them imo, but the writers got lazy when it came to May's appeals in the BF arc and Dawn's appeals in general, what with all the ice spam. It also pissed me off how Ash treated Contests since he would often train during them and ignore his friends, which seemed unfair given their complete support of him in every single one of his gym battles. I can say that I liked Contests more in the anime than in the games, but that's like the only praise I can give them.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I don't think she did. Remember that she was competing while disguised as Dawn, so as far as the rest of the world knows, it was Dawn who won that Ribbon, not Salvia.

How do you know that she didn't tell them the truth? People with five ribbons shouldn't even be allowed to participate more contests, or else experienced coordinators would dominate the grand festival by creating a ribbon shortage.

 

[HiroHunter]

It also pissed me off how Ash treated Contests since he would often train during them and ignore his friends

I think he really only did this during AG.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

How do you know that she didn't tell them the truth? People with five ribbons shouldn't even be allowed to participate more contests, or else experienced coordinators would dominate the grand festival by creating a ribbon shortage.

Didn't stop her from participating as Dawn in the first place.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

She couldn't join as herself, that was the whole point.

You mean Salvia? That was because she had royal duties to attend to. My point is that even though Dawn had officially won five Ribbons by this time, it didn't stop Salvia from entering and winning a Contest disguised as her.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

You mean Salvia? That was because she had royal duties to attend to. My point is that even though Dawn had officially won five Ribbons by this time, it didn't stop Salvia from entering and winning a Contest disguised as her.

She couldn't openly participate it as herself. That doesn't mean she didn't inform the authorities of her situation.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

She couldn't openly participate it as herself. That doesn't mean she didn't inform the authorities of her situation.

You don't seem to get my point. My point is that apparently there isn't any kind of rule stopping a Coordinator with five Ribbons from participating in a Contest to earn more. Kinda how Gary proved in season 1 that a Trainer can challenge Gyms to have more than eight Badges.

 

[Daenerys]

How do you know that she didn't tell them the truth? People with five ribbons shouldn't even be allowed to participate more contests, or else experienced coordinators would dominate the grand festival by creating a ribbon shortage.

I mean, didn't people calculate on the previous page that there are literally thousands of Contests happening per region? I don't think that a ribbon shortage is the kind of thing that anyone would need to worry about.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I mean, didn't people calculate on the previous page that there are literally thousands of Contests happening per region? I don't think that a ribbon shortage is the kind of thing that anyone would need to worry about.

If you mean my calculations, that was based on the assumption that there is a ribbon shortage and most people can't get enough ribbons.

all I'm saying is the more logic we apply to contests, the less satisfying they may feel because there are a lot of holes logically with the logistics, which can be said about many aspects of the anime.

I always believe that discussing plot holes and trying to find some logical answers to it or criticizing it are important parts of being a fan. At least for my experience.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Given all the recent essays and calculations over Contests, I'd like to admit that I don't like Contests all that much. The appeals were the most interesting thing about them imo, but the writers got lazy when it came to May's appeals in the BF arc and Dawn's appeals in general, what with all the ice spam. It also pissed me off how Ash treated Contests since he would often train during them and ignore his friends, which seemed unfair given their complete support of him in every single one of his gym battles. I can say that I liked Contests more in the anime than in the games, but that's like the only praise I can give them.

While I like Contests, I can see what you mean regarding the appeals, especially with May. There were often times during AG where they skipped over the appeals, which just seems so strange when they are such a key part of a Contest. Both May and Dawn spammed a lot of Ice type moves, but I don't think I had a huge problem with at least most of Dawn's appeals in spite of that.

I'm also pretty sure Ash only trained a couple of times during May's Contests. It still seemed less like Ash was being a bad friend, although I can understand seeing it like that, and more like the writers weren't sure about having someone other than Ash get a significant amount of screentime. I don't recall Ash taking time to train during any of Dawn's Contests.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

While I like Contests, I can see what you mean regarding the appeals, especially with May. There were often times during AG where they skipped over the appeals, which just seems so strange when they are such a key part of a Contest. Both May and Dawn spammed a lot of Ice type moves, but I don't think I had a huge problem with at least most of Dawn's appeals in spite of that.

The same also applied to Showcases. For example, Shauna did pretty much the exact same performance twice, with the combination of being carried by Vine Whip while Flabébé used Fairy Wind. Not very imaginative IMO.

 

[RC821]

Magearna is based on Alice in Wonderland