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Controversial opinions

Unfortunately, the sue/stu terms have so many different meanings now it's hard to get one down.

Personally I go for a very strict definition of effective flawlessness and ability to wrap the story around themselves; if Alain were a Stu he wouldn't have lost to Siebold and wouldn't have been tricked by Lysandre.
From my definition I think Tobias is the only Pokémon character who might count, and I still don't quite count him since he's not a wish fullfilment character but a plot device.
 
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From my definition I think Tobias is the only Pokémon character who might count, and I still don't quite count him since he's not a wish fullfilment character but a plot device.
Honestly, I've never seen so many plot devices used in a piece of media before...for crying out loud, even Ash has been used as a plot device!
 
The Kenny situation was a bit different though. Yes, Empoleon's Flash Cannon resulted in Floatzel being damaged, but I felt his loss was due to the two Pokémon (and by extent, their Trainer) not being in sync; Flash Cannon overpowered Whirlpool, which was something that shouldn't happen in an Appeal Round, let alone for the Grand Festival. Even if Floatzel was not blown away, I feel the result would have been the same.

I think you raise a good point about the second comparison, though. All I got is that the difference between the two lies in the intentionality:
  • Dawn commanded Cyndaquil and Mamoswine to attack each other to hasten the turns of Encore, rather than trying to adapt to her situation and bring out the best of those moves in her Pokémon by battling Ursula regularly. I think it would have been more impressive and would have looked better, rather than having her Pokémon damage each other unnecessarily; that's probably why she explicitly lost points.
  • Zoey's Thunderbolt and Psycho Cut combo was clearly intentional as there was no surprise or hesitation when Zoey called for it, unlike Cyndaquil and Mamoswine who were shocked to be ordered to hurt each other; Gallade needed to serve as a point-blank conduit for the combination to be pulled off. It also wasn't taking as much damage or being in pain as long as Cyndaquil and Mamoswine were to each other.
About the Kenny thing, yeah, I do think that he was, unfortunately, the ''most expendable'' in a sense of really highlighting the fact that the Grand Festival is a big deal: Seeing Dawn's first rival, who was always one step ahead of her, suddendly losing at the Appeal Round really worked to give both Dawn and the audience an ''reality shock'' to see that this is the real deal now. So, I'm honestly not that upset about Kenny losing.

But in Zoey's case, while you did bring out an great point, it just feels so weird how they stabilished an rule just a few episodes prior that was such a big deal in 2 different situations, and they just straight up ignored it in the battle where something like that counts the most. And honestly, the implication here just made it worse: Zoey clearly intended to use that combo, so it's obvious that she tried it before. So Zoey deliberately electrocuted her own Pokémon multiple times. I'm not saying that she's abusive or anything, but it's so... frustating how others get punished for something and she gets rewarded for it.

Want another example?

In DP176, Nando and Zoey battled. Immediatly, Zoey told her Pokémon to combine Energy Ball and Shock Wave, which impressed the judges and she won some points right off the bat. Which is fair, right? Then Nando countered that with his Pokémon and made it his own perfomance by using her move, and he gainded even more points than her. I mean, that's also fair, right?

Than in DP177, the next episode, Dawn started off by combing Aura Sphere and Bubble Beam, but not only she didn't gained points for that, but Zoey gained points for doing exactly what Nando did: she used Dawn's move against her. So like, why didn't Dawn won points by doing exactly what Zoey did and gained points for in the previous episode? And it gets worse when you realized that Dawn's combo not earning her anything was exactly what made Zoey take the lead up until the end of the battle.

I get that Zoey was just a bit better at the end, and it was a bit too early for Dawn to win, and yes, ultimately, Zoey did deserved it, but man, considering what I just said, Dawn got robbed so hard. I'm not ashamed to say that over an decade later, her loss at the finals is still struck in my throat.
 
I get that Zoey was just a bit better at the end, and it was a bit too early for Dawn to win, and yes, ultimately, Zoey did deserved it, but man, considering what I just said, Dawn got robbed so hard. I'm not ashamed to say that over an decade later, her loss at the finals is still struck in my throat.
I never understood why all the side protagonists never got to achieve their goals. Like, Ash, I understood, but like...May and Dawn...Iris and Misty having so much potential but it going to waste...Brock...Max and Bonnie being essentially easily replaceable...Clemont, Brock, and Cilan honestly just felt there-the only one receiving some semblance of development being Clemont...the only one other character that made somewhat sense for not achieving her goal is Serena...but that's for an actual in-universe reason, unlike Ash. So, one character out of the entire cast had an actual valid reason to not achieve their goals that actually related to character development and maybe only a little bit of meta reasons. ONE. And while the Alolan cast had great characterization, their development was minimal...Agh, the more and more I critique this anime, I slowly start to grow more and more negative of this anime and its fanbase-like, I left the FMA and Naruto fandom/anime for both reasons respectively damn it!!!
 
I never understood why all the side protagonists never got to achieve their goals. Like, Ash, I understood, but like...May and Dawn...Iris and Misty having so much potential but it going to waste...Brock...Max and Bonnie being essentially easily replaceable...Clemont, Brock, and Cilan honestly just felt there-the only one receiving some semblance of development being Clemont...the only one other character that made somewhat sense for not achieving her goal is Serena...but that's for an actual in-universe reason, unlike Ash. So, one character out of the entire cast had an actual valid reason to not achieve their goals that actually related to character development and maybe only a little bit of meta reasons. ONE. And while the Alolan cast had great characterization, their development was minimal...Agh, the more and more I critique this anime, I slowly start to grow more and more negative of this anime and its fanbase-like, I left the FMA and Naruto fandom/anime for both reasons respectively damn it!!!
Honestly? I think once they established in the original series that winning these big tournaments is hard they felt compelled not to have the other protagonists get an easier time and outshine Ash by achieving their goals.

Arguably the main exception is Tracey becoming Oak's assistant, and they probably figured the show would end in gen 2 since a third Pokémon game was far from confirmed at that point.
 
I never understood why all the side protagonists never got to achieve their goals. Like, Ash, I understood, but like...May and Dawn...Iris and Misty having so much potential but it going to waste...Brock...Max and Bonnie being essentially easily replaceable...Clemont, Brock, and Cilan honestly just felt there-the only one receiving some semblance of development being Clemont...the only one other character that made somewhat sense for not achieving her goal is Serena...but that's for an actual in-universe reason, unlike Ash. So, one character out of the entire cast had an actual valid reason to not achieve their goals that actually related to character development and maybe only a little bit of meta reasons. ONE. And while the Alolan cast had great characterization, their development was minimal...Agh, the more and more I critique this anime, I slowly start to grow more and more negative of this anime and its fanbase-like, I left the FMA and Naruto fandom/anime for both reasons respectively damn it!!!
Here's an spicy take:

It's because the writers don't wanna let Ash, who's the main focus of the series, win his goal. So if everybody elses wins their goals at the end, Ash is gonna look bad by default.

I mean, imagine if Dawn, who was the co-protagonist of DP, who had her story in the same focus and light as Ash, who had the same weight in the narrative as him, won the Grand Festival, and then a few eps later, Ash still lost to Tobias. Or if in BW, Cilan and Iris got what they wanted, and Ash lost in the most humiliating way possible by the hands of Cameron? And what if Serena became Kalos Queen and Ash and Greninja got stomped by Alain and Charizard?

How would the protagonist look by having every single one of his friends succeding and him losing again and again?

So, for this, unless they wanna let Ash win against Leon and become the world's strongst trainer, I'm 99% sure Goh won't get Mew at the end.
 
Honestly? I think once they established in the original series that winning these big tournaments is hard they felt compelled not to have the other protagonists get an easier time and outshine Ash by achieving their goals
That just feels like a rather flimsy excuse honestly. Sometimes out of universe reasons aren't a big deal, but other times, like here, they affect the story and it's just like...why???

The closest time I can think of the anime having definite well writing was in The Power of Us, which is the reason why I love it so much...or at least the first three quarters and some bits of the last parts. The actual climax was just rather...odd, to say the least. It just wasn't well written. At that point it feels like a pick your poison thing, well written characters from that movie or the plot lines from the anime?
 
A lot could have been done to make Alain’s arc more interesting. What we had gave no compelling motivations or sense of consequence, which makes his story fall flat.

His reason to being obsessed with getting stronger and beating every Mega was because he was fooled into thinking it would save Mairin’s Chespin, whose condition he felt responsible for. Why? Because edge. He had no involvement in Zygarde’s escape and Chespin got ill on its own act, so Alain blaming himself might seem compelling on his account, since he apparently cared that much about Mairin, but it felt flat for an audience that understands he did nothing. Had Alain attacked Zygarde and it fighting back infected Chespin, it would make more sense.

There’s also his DETERMINATION to fight megas and get energy for Lysandre, which was treated as a big deal... except this is the exact thing he had been doing thus far only with extra angst and no consequence. He was already kicking down every mega he saw so nothing changed there, and the fact that he was syphoning energy off of them never came into play. What if he had unkowingly been weakening his opponents with Lysandre’s device every time they fought and that’s how he won so often? What if Charizard absorbed a fraction of it and that’s why it suddenly got so overpowered while its opponents weakened? What if that was the reason it beat Greninja, because of an unfair advantage? How would Alain feel upon finding out his whole quest for power had been because of cheating and not merit? It would be a far more impactful outcome than “oopsie, I helped a wacko make a monster, lemme punch the floor in anger.”

There’s also the lame dynamic he had with Ash. The openings implied he would be actively in the baddies team and opposing the main group, which would have made for a compelling arc. Alain could have fought Ash and co. again to defend Lysandre not realising who the bad guy was, he could have known the stakes but still wanted to follow through thinking it was for the best, he could even have thrashed Sawyer (who did jack in the entire arc despite being so present beforehand) in battle and served as a catalyst for Ash to do his last stand against Lysandre, but... nothing of that happened. The one time he did something bad was when he helped the scientists capture Z2, something that wasn’t witnessed by anyone he knew and that never had any repercussions. Hell, Z2 didn’t seem even mildly bothered by having the guy that attacked and helped enslave it standing right there while it was having its “humans nice” epiphany.

Had they gone through with this all, it could have lessened the backlash from the league. Even better, Alain having unknowingly sabotaged Ash could lead to a do-over where Charizard and Greninja fought once more on equal grounds and Ash won fair and square, cementing him as champion.

So much missed potential...
 
I thought that he chose to give up his Mega Ring and Charizardite X after the Team Flare arc. If that is the case, then I'm not sure if that would really count as facing consequences for his actions. Feeling hurt and upset for Mairin losing Chespie isn't really a flaw either. It was more like motivation for him and showed that he did care about Mairin despite being initially stand off-ish with her. I've never heard of the smooth sailing part of the definition of a Gary Stu either. Alain did lose to Siebold, but I don't think that really changes things either. His only on-screen defeat was against an Elite 4 member and then he was eventually shown to defeat another Elite 4 member after defeating multiple other opponents in a row. One on-screen defeat against an Elite 4 member doesn't really balance out with how he was practically unbeatable throughout the rest of XY, so I think he would still fit the bill of a Gary Stu.
His consequence was him realizing he had allowed Team Flare to unleash their plan, but admittedly, that wasn't necessarily all he would've deserved.
 
So much missed potential...
There was a LOT of missed potential in the series. Even back in OS. I honestly still can't get over how they discarded the GS ball carrying Celebi plot because of the 4th movie. How interesting would that have been???
There's BW's Team Plasma vs Team Rocket two-parter that we never got to see in fruition.
Pikachu just had a bunch of potential with the way his character is regressing more and more after his development arc. Team Rocket and Ash...
 
I honestly still can't get over how they discarded the GS ball carrying Celebi plot because of the 4th movie. How interesting would that have been???
I perfectly agree with this (all that buildup abandoned for the sake of a movie, seriously?). Especially when all they replaced it with was pointless filler. But Johto also had a bunch of other missed opportunities. Like having the Legendary beasts and/or Ho-Oh actually play a more major role in the main series. Raikou also got robbed of a movie due to Latios and Latias taking over the movie that was likely meant to be Raikou's.
 
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What if Charizard absorbed a fraction of it and that’s why it suddenly got so overpowered while its opponents weakened?

Even better, Alain having unknowingly sabotaged Ash could lead to a do-over where Charizard and Greninja fought once more on equal grounds and Ash won fair and square, cementing him as champion.
I recall at the time both of these were being pushed as theories for that initial week right after the finals--Alain had unknowingly cheated based off something Lysandre said (I cannot recall what) and since Ash was going to have to defeat Alain during the crisis (when people thought Alain was going to be a villain, not a protagonist) he had to lose during the league.
Then, of course...

I perfectly agree with this (all that buildup abandoned for the sake of a movie, seriously?).
To this day I'm not sure why they didn't come up with something to do with the G/S ball, even if it couldn't be Celebii.

There was a LOT of missed potential in the series. Even back in OS. I honestly still can't get over how they discarded the GS ball carrying Celebi plot because of the 4th movie. How interesting would that have been???
There's BW's Team Plasma vs Team Rocket two-parter that we never got to see in fruition.
Pikachu just had a bunch of potential with the way his character is regressing more and more after his development arc. Team Rocket and Ash...
To this day Kanto+OI feels like the most overall cohesive part of the series, possessing clear character arcs for the main leads, a shocking (at the time) plot twist when Ash's reliance on heart and hope fails and he gets booted out of the league when all his flaws catch up to him, and a reversal and triumph moment when his and Pikachu's arcs finally reach a payoff when they defeat Drake. The only real loose ends were the G/S ball (which went nowhere) and Ash never facing Gary.

After that the show started to slowly but surely shift to a more plot-based focus where the characters are moved about to fit whatever current story line needs to be done.
 
To this day Kanto+OI feels like the most overall cohesive part of the series, possessing clear character arcs for the main leads, a shocking (at the time) plot twist when Ash's reliance on heart and hope fails and he gets booted out of the league when all his flaws catch up to him, and a reversal and triumph moment when his and Pikachu's arcs finally reach a payoff when they defeat Drake. The only real loose ends were the G/S ball (which went nowhere) and Ash never facing Gary.
Honestly, OS is kind of underrated. It isn't perfect, but Ash and Pikachu, the long running protagonists of the series received their best development here. I know I'm kinda stuck on Pikachu but like...I am seriously starting to get sick of people talking about Ash's pokemon with character and story development...and NOT MENTIONING PIKACHU.
 
I thought that he chose to give up his Mega Ring and Charizardite X after the Team Flare arc. If that is the case, then I'm not sure if that would really count as facing consequences for his actions. Feeling hurt and upset for Mairin losing Chespie isn't really a flaw either. It was more like motivation for him and showed that he did care about Mairin despite being initially stand off-ish with her. I've never heard of the smooth sailing part of the definition of a Gary Stu either. Alain did lose to Siebold, but I don't think that really changes things either. His only on-screen defeat was against an Elite 4 member and then he was eventually shown to defeat another Elite 4 member after defeating multiple other opponents in a row. One on-screen defeat against an Elite 4 member doesn't really balance out with how he was practically unbeatable throughout the rest of XY, so I think he would still fit the bill of a Gary Stu.
Alain spends quite a lot of time feeling responsible for what happened. If he were a Gary Stu he’d be going with the flow, but every moment we see him trying to do the best, and then messing up. A Gary Stu would not be messing up as much as Alain did, and giving up the Charizardite X isn’t something a Gary Stu would do imo. If we were truly dealing with an utterly perfect character we’d be seeing stuff like "Alain should keep the mega ring, he deserves it."

Alain basically self inflicted the consequences on himself for me. He gave away the things he thought he earned unfairly, and a Gary Stu would have never done that. Alain often feels tormented, no Gary Stu would be showing that emotion so much. That’s my personal opinion formed in accordance with the Gary Stu definitions I’ve seen thrown around, though.
 
i remember making a post about this just yesterday and might as well add on since its semi on topic: i really like alain!! but i'll also 100% agree that so much more couldve been done to make his story more impactful and truly shine....... i'll agree that his dynamic with ash felt kinda blah in some aspects and before the team flare arc his place in the main series felt a little weird?? it was nice to see him in the main series i guess but alain thrives in the mega evo specials

what i wouldve loved to see were either more mega evolution specials that focus on just how HARD alain worked towards his goal of making mairin smile by helping chespie wake up, or more space dedicated in main series episodes to do the same thing. it would make his goal and "stu-ish" power levels seem a bit more justified in the long run and make people really get invested into his storyline. and his dynamic with ash shouldve been handled a lot better!! maybe alain couldve met ash a few times more before the lumiose conference and kinda been friends?? that wouldve been cool

but on a related note, i dont think alain counts as a gary stu. i know that xy(z) fans love to say he is to somehow deny the fact that ash lost fair and square (because alain is proven to be a very good pokemon trainer) but if he REALLY was a stu, he wouldve wiped the floor with ash instead of their battle going down to the thinnest of wires. and even if his "i must be powerful" thing went a little too far in some places, he wasnt doing it for the sake of being able to say he was better than anyone else like most sues ive seen, but rather to help out a friend he cares deeply about. also from what ive seen, sues are never wrong and everything they do is "the right thing" but alain genuinely felt guilty for the team flare takeover (and by lesser extent chespies coma....... he seems to blame himself a lot, poor guy) and he realized that what he was doing was wrong (even if he didnt know it). alain has a backstory, a motivation thats deeper than it looks, and is willing to admit where he went wrong to the point of starting all over again when he gives up his key stone. he may not be the most interesting character in the anime and so much more couldve been done to help his storyline in the main series but cmon are we REALLY gonna call him a stu when tobias is right there
 
Alain spends quite a lot of time feeling responsible for what happened. If he were a Gary Stu he’d be going with the flow, but every moment we see him trying to do the best, and then messing up. A Gary Stu would not be messing up as much as Alain did, and giving up the Charizardite X isn’t something a Gary Stu would do imo. If we were truly dealing with an utterly perfect character we’d be seeing stuff like "Alain should keep the mega ring, he deserves it."

Alain basically self inflicted the consequences on himself for me. He gave away the things he thought he earned unfairly, and a Gary Stu would have never done that. Alain often feels tormented, no Gary Stu would be showing that emotion so much. That’s my personal opinion formed in accordance with the Gary Stu definitions I’ve seen thrown around, though.
Wait, really? Not trying to add anything, but I'm pretty sure most of the definitions thrown around usually include guilt as a flaw, when really it makes a character look good. I've rarely seen self-inflicted guilt actually affect other people in negative ways that make it an actual flaw. Guilt usually comes from something good-why feel guilt unless you care a lot, which is why it is typically used as a cop-out for those kind of characters.
 
Mairin’s Chespin, whose condition he felt responsible for. Why? Because edge. He had no involvement in Zygarde’s escape and Chespin got ill on its own act, so Alain blaming himself might seem compelling on his account, since he apparently cared that much about Mairin, but it felt flat for an audience that understands he did nothing. Had Alain attacked Zygarde and it fighting back infected Chespin, it would make more sense.
Rarely in anime like this is the feeling of guilt rational. My personal interpretation was that even though Alain didn’t personally cause Chespie's coma, he felt guilty due to his overall involvement in Team Flare. Like a Team Plasma grunt not approving of what Ghetsis does, and feeling guilty of being complicit in such operations.

He was already kicking down every mega he saw so nothing changed there, and the fact that he was syphoning energy off of them never came into play. What if he had unkowingly been weakening his opponents with Lysandre’s device every time they fought and that’s how he won so often? What if Charizard absorbed a fraction of it and that’s why it suddenly got so overpowered while its opponents weakened? What if that was the reason it beat Greninja, because of an unfair advantage? How would Alain feel upon finding out his whole quest for power had been because of cheating and not merit?
I’ve seen this idea thrown around, and honestly, I personally hate it. This is the thing which sounds edgy to me. "Oh, the protagonist wasn’t able to defeat him? It’s not his fault! The opponent was cheating all along!"

The one thing I liked about Alain is, that he actually has a work ethic. He was actively training to get his charizard stronger. And yes, while he came off as being overpowered and should’ve lost here and there, truth is that when Kalos league hit, I think it’s fairly justifiable that it won over Greninja. It doesn’t need to siphon power from other Pokémon because Charizard has trained more than Greninja ever did. Ash had the occasional rival battles here and there, but Alain was borderline grinding with his Charizard.

I don’t want Alain's entire effort to demonised as "cheating" because for cheating, you willingly look for short cuts. Alain has taken the long way, however many opponents he needed to defeat, and he is, in the end a good person, who doesn’t like unfair means as shown by how he gives up his Mega Stone at the end.
 
Wait, really? Not trying to add anything, but I'm pretty sure most of the definitions thrown around usually include guilt as a flaw, when really it makes a character look good. I've rarely seen self-inflicted guilt actually affect other people in negative ways that make it an actual flaw. Guilt usually comes from something good-why feel guilt unless you care a lot, which is why it is typically used as a cop-out for those kind of characters.
I haven’t really heard of that aspect before, so that sounds interesting. I’ll take the point and will probably need to think about it to come up with an opinion.
Alain was outsmarted, and basically made into a pawn by Lysandre. I can’t imagine calling a character who ended up fuelling the destruction of Kalos after that a Gary Stu. A true Gary Stu from what I imagine would be too smart to be manipulated,
 
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