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Controversial opinions

You're forgetting something, Ash had way more experience and far more powerful pokemons against Gladion than he had against Tyson who he barely lost to, Pikachu against Gladion is obviously faaar more powerful than he was in Hoenn league, Melmetal is literally the mythical Pokemon whose attacks and defenses are sooo high, while Lycanroc is like BF Sceptile level, Gladion himself had LEGENDARY Silvally, Zoroark tie with Pikachu (with some help from Silvally) who is stronger than past series, Gladion's Lycanroc barely lost to Ash's Lycanroc, barely losing to far more powerful pokemons than those Tyson faced is more than enough, not to mention he was more powerful than Guzma who is far stronger than Kalos league trainer Illima.
That still sounds like a lot of assumptions to me. Pikachu has a lot of experience, but its strength is also inconsistent as can be. Not to mention it never had the best endurance. Melmetal is a Legendary Pokemon with a lot of brute force, but it wasn't particularly impressive from what I remember. The comparison with Lycanroc and Sceptile kind of makes sense given that I think Lycanroc was Ash's strongest SM Pokemon, but saying that Zoroark is on the same level as Pikachu seems a bit of a reach given that it was just hiding for years after its original trainer disappeared. It still seems weird to compare Gladion's Pokemon with someone like Tyson. Gladion is a strong trainer, but I still wouldn't say he's necessarily stronger than trainers with full teams and I think the same applies for Guzma. They're both strong, but far from the most challenging opponents Ash has faced before.
We never seen almost all other champion or E4 Pokemons other than their ace, Gastrodon is the only other Pokemon Cynthia use which didn't shown much on screen, Steven Aggron beat TR that's it, Alan was close to champion tier but the only Pokemon we seen him using was charizard (metang for small time) we seen at least half of the Pokemons throughout SM which Kukui use against Ash, beating an in game Champion and beyond champion opponent isn't champion tier feat? Which legendary Pokemon Ash defeated before is champion ace level? Tapu Koko is whole different level than Kukui's Incineroar, Tapu Koko+Guardian of Alola is far more powerful than anything Ash defeated in his life, you can't deny that in both anime and games Tapu Koko is beyond champion opponent so he is easily comparable to other champions ace,
That is a valid point in regards to how most Champions are seen with just their ace Pokemon. I think it's hard for me to believe that Kukui was a Champion tier trainer because of how he was treated as more of a popular wrestler than a Champion. Plus, his specialty was mostly on one-on-one battles, if not the Battle Royal format. That isn't to say he wasn't a good or strong trainer. I just don't think he was on a Champion level based on how he was treated and his battle with Ash doesn't really change that for me. Professor Kukui wasn't exactly an in-game Champion either. He kind of takes the place as one when you first take on the Alola Pokemon League in the games, but he isn't a Champion. I don't particularly like the whole "you can't deny" response in general. It's fine if you still disagree with me, but I don't like treating your opinion as facts or that I can't deny what you're saying despite it being completely subjective. Defeating Tapu Koko is still an impressive feat. I just don't think it's the best or most impressive thing Ash has ever done.
Steven isn't regional champion in XY/Z either than because he had EXACT same title as Ash had and was called the same, Ash becoming regional champion is literally the main reason he is in PWC, why this never brought up before? Because PWC Is world level challenge which is what Ash needed after completing regional challenge, Ash being Alola region champion is literally the reason he beat another regional champion, look at all of his battle against E4 or other Champion where he was no match for them until final season and here he beat one champion, except BW every series shown Ash progress and PWC is the only way Ash character can progress from SM.
I'm pretty sure that Steven is a regional Champion in XY. I know that DP referred to Wallace as the Hoenn Champion, but they make it pretty clear that Steven is back as the Hoenn Champion to tie in with OR/AS and make better use of Steven in XY. Ash is referred to as the Alola League Champion, but I don't think that's the same thing when there isn't an Elite 4 and winning the Alola League isn't really impressive. There weren't any full battles and most of the trainer in the Alola League weren't even particularly interested in battling. Winning the Alola League still isn't nothing, but I don't think it's the end all be all of Ash's accomplishment either, especially when fans tend to put it on a high pedestal.

No, Ash supposedly becoming a regional champion is not literally the main reason he's in the PWC. It certainly isn't the main reason in-universe and as far as I know, there haven't been any confirmation from the production crew about that being the out of universe reason for him to be in the PWC. My assumption that they didn't want to undermine Ash's Alola League victory by having him take on another Gym Challenge right afterwards is just that. An assumption. You are also making assumptions about the PWC based on how you look at the Alola League and the PWC. The notion that PWC is the only way for Ash to progress after SM is so ridiculous to me. Not only because I still think of the Alola League as a Pokemon League set on easy mode, but the PWC isn't really much better. Ash defeating a bunch of one shot trainers both on and off screen does not sound like he's grown or that he's too good for Gyms because now he can defeat random Pokemon like Tauors, Meganium, Elekid or Heracross in less than five minutes. The PWC should be a big deal, but it isn't and I think you're treating it as a bigger deal than the show is. The PWC often feels more like Random Encounters: The Tournament than anything else to me. This is also a big reason why I can't get into the PWC. Fans hyped it up as this next step as Ash's journey right from the beginning and that still comes up whenever people defend it, but Journeys definitely doesn't treat it as such, which just makes it harder for me to be invested it in. Not only because of how I feel about it, but just being annoyed at how overhyped it got at least initially doesn't help either. If that was the case, then I think it would have proper focus, the battles would be longer and it actually would come off as impressive. Instead, it's mostly just Ash defeating a bunch of one-shot characters with some occasional strong trainers when they decide to devote a full episode to it.

I already explained why Ash defeating Iris wouldn't necessarily mean that he's a regional Champion. Yeah, he would struggle against every other Elite 4 or Champion trainer whenever he battled them before, but again, Iris is less experienced compared to other Champions and I don't think the show itself think that defeating her was a big deal either. Plus, I'm not sure how much Iris' Champion title matters for the PWC when everyone does start out at the same rank regardless of their other accomplishments.
Iris is youngest Champion like Iris true but she defeated previous champion Alder and other E4 too, age was never matter in anime because a 10 year old kid who start his/her journey very recently beat lots of adult gym leaders.
Defeating adult Gym Leaders isn't quite on the same level as defeating adult Elite 4 and Champions though. Yeah, all of them would have more experience compared to young challengers, but Gym Leaders aren't as powerful or shown to be as unbelievable strong as Elite 4 or Champions. Since I don't want to go around in circles anymore or feel like I'm not being clear about my points, I'm not going to respond you further after this.

As for setting the series in Galar, that really would help a lot with at least giving them more chances to go to Galar locations, see Galar Pokemon, possibly run into more Galar characters and make better use of Dyanamax. If we could still have Chloe and her family somehow involved, then I think it would have been great. As much as I love Galar and want to see more of it in the anime, I also wouldn't want to get rid of Chloe. All of her focus episodes that I've seen are really good and I think she's pretty refreshing among the female leads, even if she isn't properly considered a main character at the moment, so I wouldn't want to get rid of her. Her family could also be surprisingly endearing. I thought that her father was bland and boring at first. He still is, but that flashback with how he supported his future wife's interest in drawing and most of his interactions with Chloe make him more endearing than I would have expected.
 
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That still sounds like a lot of assumptions to me. Pikachu has a lot of experience, but its strength is also inconsistent as can be. Not to mention it never had the best endurance. Melmetal is a Legendary Pokemon with a lot of brute force, but it wasn't particularly impressive from what I remember. The comparison with Lycanroc and Sceptile kind of makes sense given that I think Lycanroc was Ash's strongest SM Pokemon, but saying that Zoroark is on the same level as Pikachu seems a bit of a reach given that it was just hiding for years after its original trainer disappeared. It still seems weird to compare Gladion's Pokemon with someone like Tyson. Gladion is a strong trainer, but I still wouldn't say he's necessarily stronger than trainers with full teams and I think the same applies for Guzma. They're both strong, but far from the most challenging opponents Ash has faced before.

That is a valid point. I think it's hard for me to believe that Kukui was a Champion tier trainer because of how he was treated as more of a popular wrestler than a Champion. Plus, his specialty was mostly on one-on-one battles, if not the Battle Royal format. That isn't to say he wasn't a good or strong trainer. I just don't think he was on a Champion level based on how he was treated and his battle with Ash doesn't really change that for me. Professor Kukui wasn't exactly an in-game Champion either. He kind of takes the place as one when you first take on the Alola Pokemon League in the games, but he isn't a Champion. I don't particularly like the whole "you can't deny" response in general. It's fine if you still disagree with me, but I don't like treating your opinion as facts or that I can't deny what you're saying despite it being completely subjective. Defeating Tapu Koko is still an impressive feat. I just don't think it's the best or most impressive thing Ash has ever done.

I'm pretty sure that Steven is a regional Champion in XY. I know that DP referred to Wallace as the Hoenn Champion, but they make it pretty clear that Steven is back as the Hoenn Champion to tie in with OR/AS and make better use of Steven in XY. Ash is referred to as the Alola League Champion, but I don't think that's the same thing when there isn't an Elite 4 and winning the Alola League isn't really impressive. There weren't any full battles and most of the trainer in the Alola League weren't even particularly interested in battling. Winning the Alola League still isn't nothing, but I don't think it's the end all be all of Ash's accomplishment either, especially when fans tend to put it on a high pedestal.

No, Ash supposedly becoming a regional champion is not literally the main reason he's in the PWC. It certainly isn't the main reason in-universe and as far as I know, there haven't been any confirmation from the production crew about that being the out of universe reason for him to be in the PWC. My assumption that they didn't want to undermine Ash's Alola League victory by having him take on another Gym Challenge right afterwards is just that. An assumption. You are also making assumptions about the PWC based on how you look at the Alola League and the PWC. The notion that PWC is the only way for Ash to progress after SM is so ridiculous to me. Not only because I still think of the Alola League as a Pokemon League set on easy mode, but the PWC isn't really much better. Ash defeating a bunch of one shot trainers both on and off screen does not sound like he's grown or that he's too good for Gyms because now he can defeat random Pokemon like Tauors, Meganium, Elekid or Heracross in less than five minutes. The PWC should be a big deal, but it isn't and I think you're treating it as a bigger deal than the show is. The PWC often feels more like Random Encounters: The Tournament than anything else to me. This is also a big reason why I can't get into the PWC. Fans hyped it up as this next step as Ash's journey right from the beginning and that still comes up whenever people defend it, but Journeys definitely doesn't treat it as such, which just makes it harder for me to be invested it in. Not only because of how I feel about it, but just being annoyed at how overhyped it got at least initially doesn't help either. If that was the case, then I think it would have proper focus, the battles would be longer and it actually would come off as impressive. Instead, it's mostly just Ash defeating a bunch of one-shot characters with some occasional strong trainers when they decide to devote a full episode to it.

I already explained why Ash defeating Iris wouldn't necessarily mean that he's a regional Champion. Yeah, he would struggle against every other Elite 4 or Champion trainer whenever he battled them before, but again, Iris is less experienced compared to other Champions and I don't think the show itself think that defeating her was a big deal either. Plus, I'm not sure how much Iris' Champion title matters for the PWC when everyone does start out at the same rank regardless of their other accomplishments.

Defeating adult Gym Leaders isn't quite on the same level as defeating adult Elite 4 and Champions though. Yeah, all of them would have more experience compared to young challengers, but Gym Leaders aren't as powerful or shown to be as unbelievable strong as Elite 4 or Champions. Since I don't want to go around in circles anymore or feel like I'm not being clear about my points, I'm not going to respond you further after this.

As for setting the series in Galar, that really would help a lot with at least giving them more chances to go to Galar locations, see Galar Pokemon, possibly run into more Galar characters and make better use of Dyanamax. If we could still have Chloe and her family somehow involved, then I think it would have been great. As much as I love Galar and want to see more of it in the anime, I also wouldn't want to get rid of Chloe. All of her focus episodes that I've seen are really good and I think she's pretty refreshing among the female leads, even if she isn't properly considered a main character at the moment, so I wouldn't want to get rid of her. Her family could also be surprisingly endearing. I thought that her father was bland and boring at first. He still is, but that flashback with how he supported his future wife's interest in drawing and most of his interactions with Chloe make him more endearing than I would have expected.
We're talking about SM Pikachu who is most consistent and rarely lost compared to any other series, he also a Legendary Silvally than tied with Zoroark, later beat a guardian deity Tapu Koko who is on different level than Kukui's Incineroar, Pikachu is obviously faaar more powerful than he was against Tyson, that's not even an opinion pikachu was always at his absolute best during league and in hoenn league he had very poor performance, Melmetal strength and Endurance is too high, that's why he almost beat an experienced legendary and absolutely destroy Empoleon who had 4x resistance with zero problem, Gladion had Legendary Silvally who can also change type which is waaay harder to beat than any Tyson Pokemons, as for Zoroark I said some help from Silvally and Gladion great strategy, that Zoroark belong to Mohn who was called an exceptional trainer, Mohn trained his pokemons alot like Ash that he almost missed his wedding mentioned by Lusamine, it's all enough to put Gladion above Tyson, Ash experience and power is different level against Gladion than Tyson, Gladion also had z move to filled the gap for full team along with legendary, can easily show his other 2 unknown Pokemons when needed just like Alan who was handed over 5 Pokemons by writers just to battle Ash in 6vs6, Gladion literally had more impressive feats.

I'm not saying Kukui is same level as like Steven and Cynthia but at least like other champions as iris, he was the same character in game a professor as Kukui and popular wrestler as mask royal, he build the league and was final challenge for player to become champion, plus he use Tapu Koko and Guardian of Alola which easily make him in top tier champion, I don't know how defeating Tapu Koko isn't the most impressive feat if Tapu Koko+Guardian of Alola is far more powerful than anything Ash defeated in his entire life, a champion ace level opponent with a very OP z move, which Pokemon come anywhere close to this?

Lysandre call Steven as Hoenn league Champion exactly like Kukui call Ash Alola league Champion, whoever win league call an league winner, no character in anime called a champion after only winning league except Ash because there is no other champion to beat, Alder was called an Unova league Champion in his debut episode, Ash literally beat the most powerful trainer in Alola like beating an regional champion than beat the most powerful Pokemon in Alola Tapu Koko who was beyond champion opponent, that's as impressive as beating an champion, I already prove that how Gladion is more powerful than some league winner, also about not having full battle is con but doesn't make Ash league win less impressive, in PWC anyone can enter like Alola league and WORLD CHAMPION was decided in 1vs1 battle and we're talking about regional champion.

Seriously which other pokemon Ash beat was Champion ace level like Tapu Koko?

So why Ash entering PWC rather than participating in other regions league? That's literally what story progress mean, Ash is now regional champion so he is taking further step and participate in world championship, PWC had some random trainers and also some powerful like champions, your complaint about how battle is handled is different topic, I also don't like how PWC battles handle either.

My point about gym leader getting defeated by 10 year old kid is meant to show that age never matter in anime for how powerful a trainer is, Leon was said that he became Galar champion around age 10 as well
 
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So why Ash entering PWC rather than participating in other regions league? That's literally what story progress mean, Ash is now regional champion so he is taking further step and participate in world championship, PWC had some random trainers and also some powerful like champions
...that's not "literally what story progress means". Especially since it isn't even being addressed by the narrative itself, how can you honestly call the PWC "story progress"? Story progress, as the name implies, is progression in the story itself. So how is the PWC story progress??? What "story" is it continuing when Ash's champion status hasn't even been addressed within this narrative???

And, really, Alola had no requirements, more rookie trainers than strong ones, and unlike other regions, didn't establish the importance of the champion status. He IS a champion, yes, but since the narrative has yet to address it, there's no reason to assume the PWC is Ash "taking the further step". He isn't. There is no progression here because what Ash was progressing from in the first place was never established.

And, really, how many strong opponents has Ash had in the PWC so far? Ones that have actual qualifications? Korrina, who he had already beaten in the past; Iris, who had just became champion and lost to the same pokemon Korrina's Mega Lucario lost to(implying Dragonite's strength); and Bea, a Galar gym leader who-unlike the other two-he lost to then tied with. If this was in Galar, Bea's strength would've literally made no difference whether she was in the PWC or not, hence the arguments that the PWC's terrible handling could have been avoided had it just been a typical gym quest.

And really, in what way is the PWC more impressive than say, the Orange Islands of the Battle Frontier-especially when those actually had requirements and reasonable benchmarks of strength instead of the PWC which so far has only had Korrina, Bea, and Iris?
 
...that's not "literally what story progress means". Especially since it isn't even being addressed by the narrative itself, how can you honestly call the PWC "story progress"? Story progress, as the name implies, is progression in the story itself. So how is the PWC story progress??? What "story" is it continuing when Ash's champion status hasn't even been addressed within this narrative???

And, really, Alola had no requirements, more rookie trainers than strong ones, and unlike other regions, didn't establish the importance of the champion status. He IS a champion, yes, but since the narrative has yet to address it, there's no reason to assume the PWC is Ash "taking the further step". He isn't. There is no progression here because what Ash was progressing from in the first place was never established.

And, really, how many strong opponents has Ash had in the PWC so far? Ones that have actual qualifications? Korrina, who he had already beaten in the past; Iris, who had just became champion and lost to the same pokemon Korrina's Mega Lucario lost to(implying Dragonite's strength); and Bea, a Galar gym leader who-unlike the other two-he lost to then tied with. If this was in Galar, Bea's strength would've literally made no difference whether she was in the PWC or not, hence the arguments that the PWC's terrible handling could have been avoided had it just been a typical gym quest.

And really, in what way is the PWC more impressive than say, the Orange Islands of the Battle Frontier-especially when those actually had requirements and reasonable benchmarks of strength instead of the PWC which so far has only had Korrina, Bea, and Iris?
I mean progression of Ash's story, Ash character already reach regional champion what else can be above that if not world champion? If Ash just challenge another league than there is zero progression for his character like Hoenn league, Ash was runner up in Kalos league than win the Alola league and become champion, beat a champion tier trainer to show his worth as champion is the progression of Ash over XY/Z series now PWC is further progressing Ash's story in world level.

Alola league had no requirement to enter just like PWC, had many weak trainers but just like PWC there are some really powerful trainers, like Illima a Kalos league trainer no match for Guzma and Gladion who is literally more powerful than some league winners from past series.

How many strong trainers? Visqueze, Korrina, Bea, Rinto, Iris a CHAMPION who is much stronger than any gym leader, Volkner is coming the most powerful gym leader in Sinnoh and many more to come, Dragonite and Dracovish just got huge power boost by writers because Ash is now champion, (I seriously don't like this) writers are making them crazily strong off screen.

Those leagues, BF and Orange island had some gyms/frontier brains to beat while PWC had gym leaders, possibly E4 and CHAMPIONS, which make it way harder to win than a league.
 
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Those gyms, BF and Orange island had some gyms/frontier brains to beat while PWC had gym leaders, possibly E4 and CHAMPIONS, which make it way harder to win than a league.
Doesn't really feel like it considering this series was already been whizzing through the PWC at a lightning fast pace that not even the Road Runner could catch up with. Ash has already made it into the Ultra Class, he's one more step way into Master territory and it doesn't look like they're slowing down anytime soon.
 
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Doesn't really feel like it considering this series was already been whizzing through the PWC at a lightning fast pace that not even the Road Runner could catch up with. Ash has already made it into the Ultra Class, he's one more step way into Master territory and it doesn't look like they're slowing down anytime soon.
I agree to that, Super class should've got more time and better focus.
 
I mean progression of Ash's story, Ash character already reach regional champion what else can be above that if not world champion? If Ash just challenge another league than there is zero progression for his character like Hoenn league
...I don't think you realize what you're implying. How do you know there will be "zero progression" for Ash's character? Because so far, the same applies to the PWC.
Alola league had no requirement to enter just like PWC, had many weak trainers but just like PWC there are some really powerful trainers, like Illima a Kalos league trainer no match for Guzma and Gladion who is literally more powerful than some league winners from past series.

How many strong trainers? Visqueze, Korrina, Bea, Rinto, Iris a CHAMPION who is much stronger than any gym leader, Volkner is coming the most powerful gym leader in Sinnoh and many more to come, Dragonite and Dracovish just got huge power boost by writers because Ash is now champion, (I seriously don't like this) writers are making them crazily strong off screen.
Yes, SOME powerful trainers, and let me just go over them for a moment. Out of TEN THOUSAND trainers in a competition with NO requirements WHATSOEVER, you managed to list six known trainers in this competition for Ash to beat to become "World Champion"-only seven if you include Leon. And of those, you have Visquez, who was literally just a gym substitute for a gym leader Ash has already beaten WAY in the past; Korrina, again a trainer Ash has beaten in the past; Bea, who is really just a Galar gym leader and her strength would be the same had the PWC not existed; Rinto, who literally has only been shown to have ONE pokemon that Ash has already managed to defeat within the span of, what, two episodes?; and Iris, who's arguably the strongest out of this group, but, her battle was a 2v2 and the fact that this was treated as any other normal battle is really not helping your case. And, after beating a champion like Iris and being champion himself, he shouldn't be losing to anyone after this. We have Volkner coming up soon, yes, but can Volkner match up to a Champion level trainer? By your logic, no, so really, the PWC is not even the slightest bit of a challenge. Unless, of course, they make Ash lost to random trainers off-screen again, which they've already done with Bea, a gym leader, and have NOT done for any other series beforehand.
Those gyms, BF and Orange island had some gyms/frontier brains to beat while PWC had gym leaders, possibly E4 and CHAMPIONS, which make it way harder to win than a league.
So comparing the PWC-which so far has only two confirmed champions in the running(Iris and Raihan, IIRC), one of which Ash has already managed to beat, three confirmed gym leaders(Volkner, Korrina, and Bea), one gym leader substitute-not even the actual one!(Visquez), and "possibly" Elite 4 members-to the pokemon league which is a tournament filled with many immensely qualified trainers as they've had to beat EIGHT gym leaders to enter in the first place, followed by the Elite 4 of the region, followed then by the actual Champion: all of whom have to be beaten to get the position of champion. The PWC's structure is disorganized. You don't even KNOW how many gym leaders entered in the first place, or if some Elite Four members from other regions even did so. The league's structure is far better organized and if they emphasized the strength Galar gym leaders more so than other series-which many people are saying they should have done had it been a gym quest instead-like specifically highlighting Raihan being the champion of another region(IIRC), then how on earth would have this been a step down? If anything, winning an unqualified tournament then winning a qualified tournament looks to be a step up.
 
...I don't think you realize what you're implying. How do you know there will be "zero progression" for Ash's character? Because so far, the same applies to the PWC.

Yes, SOME powerful trainers, and let me just go over them for a moment. Out of TEN THOUSAND trainers in a competition with NO requirements WHATSOEVER, you managed to list six known trainers in this competition for Ash to beat to become "World Champion"-only seven if you include Leon. And of those, you have Visquez, who was literally just a gym substitute for a gym leader Ash has already beaten WAY in the past; Korrina, again a trainer Ash has beaten in the past; Bea, who is really just a Galar gym leader and her strength would be the same had the PWC not existed; Rinto, who literally has only been shown to have ONE pokemon that Ash has already managed to defeat within the span of, what, two episodes?; and Iris, who's arguably the strongest out of this group, but, her battle was a 2v2 and the fact that this was treated as any other normal battle is really not helping your case. And, after beating a champion like Iris and being champion himself, he shouldn't be losing to anyone after this. We have Volkner coming up soon, yes, but can Volkner match up to a Champion level trainer? By your logic, no, so really, the PWC is not even the slightest bit of a challenge. Unless, of course, they make Ash lost to random trainers off-screen again, which they've already done with Bea, a gym leader, and have NOT done for any other series beforehand.

So comparing the PWC-which so far has only two confirmed champions in the running(Iris and Raihan, IIRC), one of which Ash has already managed to beat, three confirmed gym leaders(Volkner, Korrina, and Bea), one gym leader substitute-not even the actual one!(Visquez), and "possibly" Elite 4 members-to the pokemon league which is a tournament filled with many immensely qualified trainers as they've had to beat EIGHT gym leaders to enter in the first place, followed by the Elite 4 of the region, followed then by the actual Champion: all of whom have to be beaten to get the position of champion. The PWC's structure is disorganized. You don't even KNOW how many gym leaders entered in the first place, or if some Elite Four members from other regions even did so. The league's structure is far better organized and if they emphasized the strength Galar gym leaders more so than other series-which many people are saying they should have done had it been a gym quest instead-like specifically highlighting Raihan being the champion of another region(IIRC), then how on earth would have this been a step down? If anything, winning an unqualified tournament then winning a qualified tournament looks to be a step up.
You're forgetting something, Ash throughout his journey beat gym leaders while here he doing same thing alongside some other powerful trainers and champions, Volkner is undefeated Gym leader of Sinnoh who is most like more powerful than all those Sinnoh league trainers Ash face except Paul and Tobias.

Than there is champions and possibly E4, seriously facing champions is much harder than league trainers, Iris and Leon is confirmed, Lance who is also like Kanto champion (really don't what is his exact position), Raihan who said to be powerful enough to become other region champion but didn't leave Galar because he want to beat Leon, seriously there is many super strong trainers to come.


Also it's not like weak trainers isn't above strong trainers in ranking, Iris join PWC recently mentioned in JN65 episode summary that's why she wasn't very high in ranking, every trainer whether they're noob or champion start from the bottom in ranking, so a weak trainer who is in PWC for very long time can be above champions in ranking who join recently, in the end 8 most powerful trainers will be in master class.

You can see PWC like this, Ash beating trainers in all the classes from normal to hyper class is like beating gym leaders while winning against master 8 is like winning a league but at world level.
 
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You're forgetting something, Ash throughout his journey beat gym leaders while here he doing same thing alongside some other powerful trainers and champions, Volkner is undefeated Gym leader of Sinnoh who is most like more powerful than all those Sinnoh league trainers Ash face except Paul and Tobias.
...did said Sinnoh league trainers not have to beat Volkner to GET the badge from him? And like hell he's undefeatable-we literally saw Ash defeat him on-screen???
and possibly E4
You keep saying "possibly" and that's why I'm having trouble taking your arguments seriously. None are confirmed so far, yes, but there was nothing implying that Elite Four members were in the PWC anyway, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
Iris and Leon is confirmed, Lance who is also like Kanto champion (really don't what is his exact position), Raihan who said to be powerful enough to become other region champion but didn't leave Galar because he want to beat Leon, seriously there is many super strong trainers to come.
Well, Ash already beat Iris in a 2v2 with one pokemon that beat a gym leader's Mega Evolution pokemon which is fair in terms of strength, and another who he literally JUST caught. Iris was already defeated, Leon only has one(two???) pokemon in his arsenal(which, according to a post of your earlier, would make Leon weaker or equal to the likes of Kukui), Lance was defeated by Leon so by the scaling if Ash beats Leon he would be able to beat Lance, and the same applies to Raihan. The only part of the PWC you can say has merit is the Masters 8, and really, had the PWC just had the simply qualification of, say, "beaten at least five gym leaders", then the strength scaling would be a little more than believable.
Also it's not like weak trainers isn't above strong trainers in ranking, Iris join PWC recently mentioned in JN65 episode summary that's why she wasn't very high in ranking, every trainer whether they're noob or champion start from the bottom in ranking, so a weak trainer who is in PWC for very long time can be above champions in ranking who join recently.
Hm, so if Iris climbs up the ranks, and by the structure of the PWC, she can manage to get past Ash's rank, unless she never show up again. It's not like they can pretend she was taken out of the running. She's champion, after all, so she HAS to be above Ash later on unless she for some reason decides to drop out of the tournament for...whatever reason. But if Iris stays in the running and DOESN'T at the very least get back into Hyper Class, then I see no point to her inclusion.

And that argument I just made is speculation based on YOUR speculation, so let's see how well my theory holds up.

Anyway, I'm already tired of this debate because it's clear none of my points are getting across. Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I'm not replying any further.
 
...did said Sinnoh league trainers not have to beat Volkner to GET the badge from him? And like hell he's undefeatable-we literally saw Ash defeat him on-screen???

You keep saying "possibly" and that's why I'm having trouble taking your arguments seriously. None are confirmed so far, yes, but there was nothing implying that Elite Four members were in the PWC anyway, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Well, Ash already beat Iris in a 2v2 with one pokemon that beat a gym leader's Mega Evolution pokemon which is fair in terms of strength, and another who he literally JUST caught. Iris was already defeated, Leon only has one(two???) pokemon in his arsenal(which, according to a post of your earlier, would make Leon weaker or equal to the likes of Kukui), Lance was defeated by Leon so by the scaling if Ash beats Leon he would be able to beat Lance, and the same applies to Raihan. The only part of the PWC you can say has merit is the Masters 8, and really, had the PWC just had the simply qualification of, say, "beaten at least five gym leaders", then the strength scaling would be a little more than believable.

Hm, so if Iris climbs up the ranks, and by the structure of the PWC, she can manage to get past Ash's rank, unless she never show up again. It's not like they can pretend she was taken out of the running. She's champion, after all, so she HAS to be above Ash later on unless she for some reason decides to drop out of the tournament for...whatever reason. But if Iris stays in the running and DOESN'T at the very least get back into Hyper Class, then I see no point to her inclusion.

And that argument I just made is speculation based on YOUR speculation, so let's see how well my theory holds up.

Anyway, I'm already tired of this debate because it's clear none of my points are getting across. Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I'm not replying any further.
Volkner beat all of his challengers that's why he lost interest and give free badges, Ash is the only trainer who beat him and he need Infernape special blaze power to do that, Nando and Conway was more easier to beat.

I said possibly because I can't say with 100%, even than there are champions and the trainer who is same level, Lance himself was called a winner of Kanto E4 cup, so he is E4 or Champion is unknown.

Beat 5 gym leaders to make it more believable? To reach master 8 you need to beat far more powerful opponents than those gym leaders, just because it's open for everyone doesn't mean it's weak for challenge when you had to face some of the most powerful trainers in the world to improve your ranking (I know I know the way PWC handling power scaling isn't consistent)

Leon is world champion as well as Galar Champion, he obviously had full team, we seen Steven using only 2 Pokemons in entire anime and Cynthia only 3 (3rd one Glaceon took 7 seasons to show) so does that mean they only had 2-3 Pokemons? Leon isn't just more powerful than Kukui but more powerful than all the trainers we seen in anime, he Is literally world champion and was undefeated since his childhood.


If iris showed up again than she is obviously going to be in hyper class, only reason she enter in PWC was to improve her skills to become dragon master just like becoming Unova Champion was, becoming world champion isn't her goal so if she didn't reach master 8 than it's completely fine.
 
Now, here is my take on it.

Ash is a strong trainer, but not a regional champion. He is the Alola League Champion, just like Virgil is reffered to as the Unova League Champion.

This makes Ash low E4 level at best and you can make the argument he is now high E4 level because he defeated Iris (She is a champion, but not very experienced).

People take the Ash vs Kukui battle way to literal and then his match against Tapu Koko. Here is the thing: Charizards win against Articuno gets downplayed a lot, because despite being a legendary, it was also a wild Pokemon. Same applies for Tapu Koko, so its only natural for it to lose against Ash's strongest trained Pokemon, just like it was natural for Articuno to lose against Ash's second strongest wild Pokemon.

Ash's Alola team isn't that strong either, compared to other regional teams (Except for maybe Johto and Unova). Just let compare Alola with his Hoenn team (Which was a very battle heavy region compared to Alola)

Corphish > Rowlet
Torkoal > Torracat (Only exceeded Torkoal when it evolved into Incineroar, but compared to Torracat pre-league, Torkoal had stronger showings)
Groyvle > Melmetal (Melmetal isn't all that impressive to begin with, Groyvle had stronger showings. You might argue Groyvle and Melmetal are on equal footing, but BF Sceptile has exceeded Melmetal)
Glalie > Lycanroc (Glalie was the MVP during the Hoenn League, while Lycanroc only fought in one battle, while yes defeating Gladions strongest mon, Glalie had stronger showings in the Hoenn League, despite being a last ditch capture compared to Lycanroc).

However, the main problem is that you can't compare Ash's other regional teams and as such other regional variants of Ash (When he had less experience), since before Alola, all the regions were heavily focused on battling and the gym challenge, which means the majority of those mons, will easily outclass the Alola ones in feats and raw power. Only Lycanroc might be able to hold his own against the lower tiered of those mons.

You see it already in Journeys. Dragonite would be able to singlehandely take down the Alola mons, while it would have trouble taking out Ash's other high/mid tier Pokemon (Depends on which Pokemon you see high/mid tier).
 
Ash is a strong trainer, but not a regional champion. He is the Alola League Champion, just like Virgil is reffered to as the Unova League Champion.
Isn’t the situation different in Alola? They don’t have an Elite 4, so no way of becoming a "regional champion" by your criteria. Hence, Ash is the first regional champion, no? If a hypothetical Elite 4 was set up, then maybe you could've made this argument but Ash, for now is clearly the strongest trainer in Alola.
 
Corphish > Rowlet
Torkoal > Torracat (Only exceeded Torkoal when it evolved into Incineroar, but compared to Torracat pre-league, Torkoal had stronger showings)
Groyvle > Melmetal (Melmetal isn't all that impressive to begin with, Groyvle had stronger showings. You might argue Groyvle and Melmetal are on equal footing, but BF Sceptile has exceeded Melmetal)
Glalie > Lycanroc (Glalie was the MVP during the Hoenn League, while Lycanroc only fought in one battle, while yes defeating Gladions strongest mon, Glalie had stronger showings in the Hoenn League, despite being a last ditch capture compared to Lycanroc).
What is your criteria of comparing Pokémon and strengths? Why have you compared Grovyle to Melmetal and not Lycanroc. And why are you counting BF when the league is the discussion? I refuse to believe Torracat was weaker than Torkoal, no thanks. You completely ignored how Incineroar has had literally no battles in its final form. So how exactly is it deemed stronger than Torkoal in your metric? How have you measured the strength of a Pokémon that hasn’t even had an official battle? Torracat literally beat the strongest Pokémon of the strongest trainer in Alola.

What even is the criteria of strength for you? No offence but it seems completely arbitrary unless you have an actual, factual criteria of measuring strength that doesn’t have logistical flaws in it. No offence, but a lot of these comparisons you've made are more arbitrary, personal and subjective.
 
I mean, at this point what kind of champion winning Alola made Ash feels like a minor detail; he beat Iris. She's Unova champ, meaning she probably had to beat Alder. Sure, a regional champ lost to a not-that-experienced team but that just fits into champions being nerfed as I predicted before. Ash is now regional champion tier, if maybe only the lower end of them.
Do I expect that to have any impact on the story going forward?
No. No I don't.

But there it is.
 
As a side note, I still find the notion that Iris could become the Unova Champion seemingly without a full team really baffling. I understand that they wanted to show how Iris has progressed after her special and they probably were more focused on making her match with her video game counterpart than anything else too, but I just find it kind of unbelievable. Only Excadrill and Dragonite were shown to be consistently strong, although I don't think Dragonite ever won a battle under Iris' command during BW, Emogla was barely used, Axew was useless and I don't know if we got a good indication of her Gible's skills.

I realize that this is just is a completely subjective take on Iris' team and to be fair, giving her more fully evolved Dragons on top of Haxorus probably would have been overkill too, but I just really hate that she's the Unova Champion. Even if she bypassed the Gyms and the Unova League by defeating Alder, it still feels too much of a stretch from where she was at the end of BW. If I liked Iris, then this probably wouldn't be an issue. This might also make it harder for me to see Ash as regional champion tier when the only Champion he has defeated thus far is Iris, who I think is forced to fit in her video game mold instead of being a natural progression for her story within the anime.

As for Ash's Alola team, only Lycanroc and Torracat are strong in my opinion. Lycanroc had the most focus and development out of his team. Torracat didn't get as much battles, but it still showed off its strength and came off as pretty impressive whenever it did battle. Rowlet started off pretty well, but ended up being too inconsistent and too much of a gag Pokemon to really work. Melmetal had a lot of brute strength, but wasn't particularly impressive beyond that. Nagandel only battled in the Kukui match, but it was pretty decent. It basically got the Goodra treatment, but in this case it actually did something upon its return. It still isn't one of Ash's best teams though.
 
As a side note, I still find the notion that Iris could become the Unova Champion seemingly without a full team really baffling. I understand that they wanted to show how Iris has progressed after her special and they probably were more focused on making her match with her video game counterpart than anything else too, but I just find it kind of unbelievable. Only Excadrill and Dragonite were shown to be consistently strong, although I don't think Dragonite ever won a battle under Iris' command during BW, Emogla was barely used, Axew was useless and I don't know if we got a good indication of her Gible's skills.

I realize that this is just is a completely subjective take on Iris' team and to be fair, giving her more fully evolved Dragons on top of Haxorus probably would have been overkill too, but I just really hate that she's the Unova Champion. Even if she bypassed the Gyms and the Unova League by defeating Alder, it still feels too much of a stretch from where she was at the end of BW. If I liked Iris, then this probably wouldn't be an issue. This might also make it harder for me to see Ash as regional champion tier when the only Champion he has defeated thus far is Iris, who I think is forced to fit in her video game mold instead of being a natural progression for her story within the anime.

As for Ash's Alola team, only Lycanroc and Torracat are strong in my opinion. Lycanroc had the most focus and development out of his team. Torracat didn't get as much battles, but it still showed off its strength and came off as pretty impressive whenever it did battle. Rowlet started off pretty well, but ended up being too inconsistent and too much of a gag Pokemon to really work. Melmetal had a lot of brute strength, but wasn't particularly impressive beyond that. Nagandel only battled in the Kukui match, but it was pretty decent. It basically got the Goodra treatment, but in this case it actually did something upon its return. It still isn't one of Ash's best teams though.
Tbf Iris was absent for more than 2 series so she build her team strong enough to become champion, her Gible most likely now a Garchomp and her flashback shown she had Goodra as 6th Pokemon, so she had full team, in BW alone she was strong enough to at least get 6-7 badges, Ash has become champion and with Alola Pokemons alone beat Kukui (minus Tapu Koko) who is also like champion tier trainer like Alder in games so Iris doing it with Pokemons who is longer with her than Ash's Alolan team isn't unbelievable.
 
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As a side note, I still find the notion that Iris could become the Unova Champion seemingly without a full team really baffling. I understand that they wanted to show how Iris has progressed after her special and they probably were more focused on making her match with her video game counterpart than anything else too, but I just find it kind of unbelievable. Only Excadrill and Dragonite were shown to be consistently strong, although I don't think Dragonite ever won a battle under Iris' command during BW, Emogla was barely used, Axew was useless and I don't know if we got a good indication of her Gible's skills.

I realize that this is just is a completely subjective take on Iris' team and to be fair, giving her more fully evolved Dragons on top of Haxorus probably would have been overkill too, but I just really hate that she's the Unova Champion. Even if she bypassed the Gyms and the Unova League by defeating Alder, it still feels too much of a stretch from where she was at the end of BW. If I liked Iris, then this probably wouldn't be an issue. This might also make it harder for me to see Ash as regional champion tier when the only Champion he has defeated thus far is Iris, who I think is forced to fit in her video game mold instead of being a natural progression for her story within the anime.
I mean, I’m not too fussed about it...
Just imagine: XY001-XY025: She sorts out Dragonite's issues and fully earns its trust.
XY050: Axew Evolves once
XY075: Gible Evolves
XY100: Fraxure Evolves
SM025: Gabite Evolves
SM050: Emolga learns some moves and gets some training
[Add another Pokémon during all this time]

Full Team: Excadrill, Emolga, Dragonite, Garchomp and Haxorus + [Sixth Pokemon]

Iris being champion is my least concern. And she was a battle prodigy when she was on her own, and won 100 battles with literally one Drilbur/Excadrill. I guess she's one of those people who thrive alone.

What was the concern was the actual battle quality against Ash imo. I tried my best to like it, but it certainly didn’t add up. I was left with the feeling that Ash would have lost against Iris if she basically hadn’t talked to his Dragonite. While yay Dragonite development! It felt like Ash was being given a handout for victory imo. If it takes your opponent's input to sort out your Pokémon’s psyche... I guess me not being around for BW and thus, not developing a hatred for Iris might be a factor, but I guess in that aspect I represent the target audience there.
 
I mean, I’m not too fussed about it...
Just imagine: XY001-XY025: She sorts out Dragonite's issues and fully earns its trust.
XY050: Axew Evolves once
XY075: Gible Evolves
XY100: Fraxure Evolves
SM025: Gabite Evolves
SM050: Emolga learns some moves and gets some training
[Add another Pokémon during all this time]

Full Team: Excadrill, Emolga, Dragonite, Garchomp and Haxorus + [Sixth Pokemon]

Iris being champion is my least concern. And she was a battle prodigy when she was on her own, and won 100 battles with literally one Drilbur/Excadrill. I guess she's one of those people who thrive alone.

What was the concern was the actual battle quality against Ash imo. I tried my best to like it, but it certainly didn’t add up. I was left with the feeling that Ash would have lost against Iris if she basically hadn’t talked to his Dragonite. While yay Dragonite development! It felt like Ash was being given a handout for victory imo. If it takes your opponent's input to sort out your Pokémon’s psyche... I guess me not being around for BW and thus, not developing a hatred for Iris might be a factor, but I guess in that aspect I represent the target audience there.

We saw in the Journeys flashback she still has Gible though.
 
Tbf Iris was absent for more than 2 series so she build her team strong enough to become champion, her Gible most likely now a Garchomp and her flashback shown she had Goodra as 6th Pokemon, so she had full team, in BW alone she was strong enough to at least get 6-7 badges, Ash has become champion and with Alola Pokemons alone beat Kukui (minus Tapu Koko) who is also like champion tier trainer like Alder in games so Iris doing it with Pokemons who is longer with her than Ash's Alolan team isn't unbelievable.
I know that she was gone for two series, but that doesn't really mean much when time in the Pokemon anime makes no sense. I'm pretty sure that she still has a Gible and that the Goodra wasn't confirmed to be her Pokemon either. I just find it unbelievable because of how Iris' skills were presented in BW. They kept hyping her up as this gifted trainer, but her battle skills were never that impressive to me. Like I said, if I liked Iris, then this development would be terrific. As it is, it just feels incredibly forced to me.

I mean, I’m not too fussed about it...
Just imagine: XY001-XY025: She sorts out Dragonite's issues and fully earns its trust.
XY050: Axew Evolves once
XY075: Gible Evolves
XY100: Fraxure Evolves
SM025: Gabite Evolves
SM050: Emolga learns some moves and gets some training
[Add another Pokémon during all this time]

Full Team: Excadrill, Emolga, Dragonite, Garchomp and Haxorus + [Sixth Pokemon]
Didn't Iris already fully earn Dragonite's trust in BW? As much as I dislike the whole Dragonite disobeys Iris subplot, I thought that it being resolved meant that Dragonite's issues with Iris were resolved and it already trusted her. She still has a Gible too. Axew evolving off-screen wouldn't bother me so much if it was handled better in BW. They couldn't really decide if it wanted to be the strong secondary mascot akin to Piplup or the cute useless baby Pokemon like Togepi, so they just went with both options at the same time. Emolga getting some training off screen is fine, although it really felt like a forced addition to Iris team and yet still feels pretty forgettable in spite of that.
Iris being champion is my least concern. And she was a battle prodigy when she was on her own, and won 100 battles with literally one Drilbur/Excadrill. I guess she's one of those people who thrive alone.
And that was one of the most contrived aspects about Iris' backstory for me. Yeah, they were really set on making her this gifted battler with nearly winning a hundred battles in a row before becoming a trainer, but her skills during the course of BW didn't really match that. Someone with that level of skill in battle should be more battle active and especially been more proactive with training her Pokemon. Instead, Excadrill's issue went unresolved seemingly for years, depending on how old Iris was in that flashback, and she didn't really do much to help Axew learn a weak move like Dragon Rage. Most of Iris' focus episodes during BW hype her up as this gifted Dragon Master in training, but her battle skills don't really back up that kind of hype in my opinion. She felt like an average trainer at best as far as skills go and making her a gifted battler felt like a last minute addition given how she really came off like a rookie trainer at the beginning of BW.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Iris shouldn't have made any progress since BW. I am saying that Iris going from clearly not being into the idea of being a Gym Leader to now being the Unova Champion is way too much of a leap for me. Plenty of Iris fans were happy about it. I can definitely understand that and I'm happy for those fans when I'm sure they've missed her, but for me, it just ultimately feels like a forced way to make anime Iris mirror video game Iris. Not to mention it makes me wonder how strong Alder and/or the Unova Elite 4 are in the anime if they all lost to Iris.
What was the concern was the actual battle quality against Ash imo. I tried my best to like it, but it certainly didn’t add up. I was left with the feeling that Ash would have lost against Iris if she basically hadn’t talked to his Dragonite. While yay Dragonite development! It felt like Ash was being given a handout for victory imo. If it takes your opponent's input to sort out your Pokémon’s psyche... I guess me not being around for BW and thus, not developing a hatred for Iris might be a factor, but I guess in that aspect I represent the target audience there.
Like I said before, I can't really judge the battle quality yet, but I have heard this complaint before. I can understand it though. There have been other battles where I felt Ash was given an easy or undeserved victory too. Admittedly, I'm not sure how much it would bother me or if it would bother me at all since the prospect of Iris winning the battle doesn't really sound appealing to me either. It would ideally have given Ash more time to work in the Great Class and then we'd get another battle with Iris down the road, but I think that would have been way too optimistic in both regards. Given how fast they're going through the PWC, I don't think that they'd be interested in giving Ash more matches within the Great class. How much attention the Hyper and Master Class battles, assuming he does get to the Master Class to battle Leon proper, is also up for debate at this before. The idea of Iris showing up again for another battle would have been appealing to her fans, but that was pretty unlikely since she isn't quite as popular as other returning characters like Dawn and Gary.
 
To be clear, I'm not saying that Iris shouldn't have made any progress since BW. I am saying that Iris going from clearly not being into the idea of being a Gym Leader to now being the Unova Champion is way too much of a leap for me.
Well, other characters have done much more on screen in the span of much fewer episodes. Go went from being crushed by a Mightyena to having a Cinderace and a Legendary Pokémon. I don’t see why Iris’ ascent is that outlandish when compared to stuff like that specially when she disappeared for two whole series, which you seem to be dismissing because “time in the anime makes no sense”. But that makes no sense either because it can be as short as you want, but as long as you want too. People develop and change. Like I said, Iris seems to do much better solo than in groups thanks to what we’ve seen with regard to her progress.

Your perspective seems to be heavily tainted by your dislike of Iris in BW... I do not like the way her battle was handled, but her growing makes perfect sense when your protagonists themselves are growing leaps and bounds every episode.
 
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